67 réponses à ce sujet

[ShrinkingFish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheLion36 wrote...

The wound was Meredith, she pushed the mages so they had no other choice than to turn to extremes.

Templars only pushed back.

Mages rebel and fight back, Templar push back and make them tranquil.
Mages are pissed off that there's more tranquil and keep fighting more, Templar have to tranquil the worst of them.
Mages use their tranquil for public sympathy and start trying to lead open rebellion against Meredith, Meredith orders Templar to hunt down the mages and kill / bring them back.

You're right. The whole thing was like a schoolyard fight. The bully pushes the little, fat kid. The little, fat kid pushes back. The bully pushes harder. The fat kid pushes harder. The bully punches him in the face. The fat kid breaks the bully's nose.

Only it was with adults and with swords and fireballs and a lot of people died.

Wait, what was your point again?

[Gileadan]

Templars. I was all willing to help the mages until the Chantry went boom - then it was clean-up time. Surrendering mages were spared of course, but considering the amount of abominations and blood mages I ran into during that last conflict, I think Kirkwall is a better place now, overall.

[Ingu]

I sided with the mages since I was brainwashed by Anders... and I was playing an apostate mage, seemed hypocritical otherwise.

[SkittlesKat96]

I chose the mages but personally I wanted a compromise, Anders ruined that chance. I decided to be merciful to Anders though, and maybe he's right that there needed to be war between mages and templars and that the circle was wrong and that was the only way of doing things. I think if given the option though I'd have him arrested or left to Sebastian at the end of the game, in fact maybe I should have banished him...

 

[ShrinkingFish]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

 Anders ruined that chance.
 

To be honest... there wasn't really any chance at any sort of reasonable compromise. A compromise would be reached, the abuses would continue, something would spark the resistance again and the whole cycle would start over.

Anders did nothing more than break that cycle.

[Ingu]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

To be honest... there wasn't really any chance at any sort of reasonable compromise. A compromise would be reached, the abuses would continue, something would spark the resistance again and the whole cycle would start over.

Anders did nothing more than break that cycle.

Agreed, it wasn't compromise so much as stalling the inevitable. It might've taken another 2 years or 20, but it would've spilled over sooner or later. There were simply too many issues for the system to hold.

[Dhaunae]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Templars only pushed back.

Mages rebel and fight back, Templar push back and make them tranquil.
Mages are pissed off that there's more tranquil and keep fighting more, Templar have to tranquil the worst of them.
Mages use their tranquil for public sympathy and start trying to lead open rebellion against Meredith, Meredith orders Templar to hunt down the mages and kill / bring them back.

Templars were not retaliating; even in Act 1 a mage says something like, "I can't be seen talking to you or I'll get thirty lashes." Thirty lashes for speaking to someone not a mage. That's enough to kill a person. For talking. So, abuses were going on from the start, and it's illegal by their own laws to make mages who've passed their Harrowings Tranquil. Tthe Templars weren't using justified force, they were breaking the tenets of their own religion to try and cow people into submission with murder. Oh and Meredith didn't order a single Templar to bring mages back. The Rite of Annulment is about killing all the mages in a Circle, it's not about sparing the ones you think can be saved.

So, no, the Templars aren't justified by any stretch of the imagination. 

[Admiral Awsome]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheLion36 wrote...

The wound was Meredith, she pushed the mages so they had no other choice than to turn to extremes.

Templars only pushed back.

Mages rebel and fight back, Templar push back and make them tranquil.
Mages are pissed off that there's more tranquil and keep fighting more, Templar have to tranquil the worst of them.
Mages use their tranquil for public sympathy and start trying to lead open rebellion against Meredith, Meredith orders Templar to hunt down the mages and kill / bring them back.

It isn't as if Meredith did everything because she found it funny (though in the end because of the idol, she might have). Maybe it's just me but I felt perfectly justified slaying the mages when we see blood mages flooding the streets everywhere, demons left and right and the First Enchanter refusing a Templar investigation to be done.

To be honest though I found the amount of abominations a bit overkill... My character and Merrill both used blood magic, but never turned into an abomination, however every other mage pushed into the slightest corner turned immediately.

Wouldn't be fun if you're standing there and suddenly there's a game over screen that shows up and says "Oops, you turned into a demon."

Remember how Fenris, and I think Meredith, is always saying that Mages always say they won't use Blood Magic, but end up doing so when backed iknto a corner? Ya, thanks for justifying their fears Orsino.

Sided with Templars.

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 26 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Remember how Fenris, and I think Meredith, is always saying that Mages always say they won't use Blood Magic, but end up doing so when backed iknto a corner? Ya, thanks for justifying their fears Orsino.

Sided with Templars.

You mean that they will take advantage of every option available to insure their survival when their lives are threatened?!!?!

Say it isn't so!! Oh lordy, lord! Them mages are defending themselves! If they were good mages they'd just lay back and expose their throats for us to cut! But see!? See them fighting back!?!? That proves they're evil beyond a doubt!!

[/sarcasm]

[Ingu]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheLion36 wrote...

The wound was Meredith, she pushed the mages so they had no other choice than to turn to extremes.

Templars only pushed back.

Mages rebel and fight back, Templar push back and make them tranquil.
Mages are pissed off that there's more tranquil and keep fighting more, Templar have to tranquil the worst of them.
Mages use their tranquil for public sympathy and start trying to lead open rebellion against Meredith, Meredith orders Templar to hunt down the mages and kill / bring them back.

It isn't as if Meredith did everything because she found it funny (though in the end because of the idol, she might have). Maybe it's just me but I felt perfectly justified slaying the mages when we see blood mages flooding the streets everywhere, demons left and right and the First Enchanter refusing a Templar investigation to be done.

To be honest though I found the amount of abominations a bit overkill... My character and Merrill both used blood magic, but never turned into an abomination, however every other mage pushed into the slightest corner turned immediately.

Wouldn't be fun if you're standing there and suddenly there's a game over screen that shows up and says "Oops, you turned into a demon."

Remember how Fenris, and I think Meredith, is always saying that Mages always say they won't use Blood Magic, but end up doing so when backed iknto a corner? Ya, thanks for justifying their fears Orsino.

Sided with Templars.

But then WHO backed them into that corner?

...and if you ask why... it's a never ending CYCLE. Which had to be broken for there to be any change. Otherwise it'd just be the same old story, rinse and repeat.

[Admiral Awsome]

They can shoot fireballs. Is there really no other trick they can use that's powerful enough?

Also, this last resort seems to backfire a lot and not only endanger the user, but the people around them.

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 26 mars 2011 - 10:51 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

They can shoot fireballs. Is there really no other trick they can use that's powerful enough?

From the way the Templars were easily slaughtering the mages of the Circle in the final battle without the mages being able to so much as put up a decent fight...?

I'd say... yeah.

When faced with your own mortality and death are you saying that you wouldn't fight to the very ends of your abilities to preserve your life? That you would, perhaps, reach for that gun and then think "Actually... guns are wrong" and let yourself be beaten to death?

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 26 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Also, this last resort seems to backfire a lot and not only endanger the user, but the people around them.

It does indeed seem to. Which is also a result of the Chantry's oppression as none of these mages were sufficiently taught how to wield and control these powers nor defend themselves from the very powers they summon forth.

[TobiTobsen]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Also, this last resort seems to backfire a lot and not only endanger the user, but the people around them.

It does indeed seem to. Which is also a result of the Chantry's oppression as none of these mages were sufficiently taught how to wield and control these powers nor defend themselves from the very powers they summon forth.

Yeah... because we really need to teach mages, who are already very powerful, how to deal with demons to learn a form of magic that allows you to rip the lifeforce from other people, boil their blood or mindcontrol them.

There is a reason that kind of magic is forbidden. I don't see not a single possibility where you could do good with blood magic. That stuff is like the dark side of the force. And I don't see people complain the jedis don't teach that to their padawans.

[ShrinkingFish]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Yeah... because we really need to teach mages, who are already very powerful, how to deal with demons to learn a form of magic that allows you to rip the lifeforce from other people, boil their blood or mindcontrol them.

There is a reason that kind of magic is forbidden. I don't see not a single possibility where you could do good with blood magic. That stuff is like the dark side of the force. And I don't see people complain the jedis don't teach that to their padawans.

If you spare Jawan and aid in his escape he uses the power he gained from blood magic to aid refugees and protect them from the Darkspawn.

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It is only open to abuses. Just like any other form of power.

[TobiTobsen]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Yeah... because we really need to teach mages, who are already very powerful, how to deal with demons to learn a form of magic that allows you to rip the lifeforce from other people, boil their blood or mindcontrol them.

There is a reason that kind of magic is forbidden. I don't see not a single possibility where you could do good with blood magic. That stuff is like the dark side of the force. And I don't see people complain the jedis don't teach that to their padawans.

If you spare Jawan and aid in his escape he uses the power he gained from blood magic to aid refugees and protect them from the Darkspawn.

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It is only open to abuses. Just like any other form of power.

If that was his intent all along, then maybe he should have used fireballs instead of magic that is a giant "PLEASE POSSESS ME" sign for demons. Fighting evil with evil doesn't make it good.

I see where you're coming from but I think our views on blood magic differ in that point

[Wulfram]

Xewaka wrote...

Right until Anders did his thing, I was minding of siding with Magi. After Anders did his thing, Templars all the way. I cannot condone terrorism.

I felt killing the perpetrator was sufficient to be not condoning terrorism, and then got on with not condoning mass murder.

[Urazz]

TobiTobsen wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Also, this last resort seems to backfire a lot and not only endanger the user, but the people around them.

It does indeed seem to. Which is also a result of the Chantry's oppression as none of these mages were sufficiently taught how to wield and control these powers nor defend themselves from the very powers they summon forth.

Yeah... because we really need to teach mages, who are already very powerful, how to deal with demons to learn a form of magic that allows you to rip the lifeforce from other people, boil their blood or mindcontrol them.

There is a reason that kind of magic is forbidden. I don't see not a single possibility where you could do good with blood magic. That stuff is like the dark side of the force. And I don't see people complain the jedis don't teach that to their padawans.

I don't think he said they needed to be taught blood magic.  No he was saying they need to be taught how to control their powers and face demons in the fade.  He's basically saying the Circle needs to be more of a school than a prison.

[Weskerr]

Mages. I believe in the respect of human dignity and freedom. Locking away people in internment camps (that is what the Circle of Magi is akin to) because one thinks they have the potential to do harm is horrible justification. The natural and universal rights of man as expressed in the Declaration of independence is quite applicable to this scenario as it is to every scenario involving human beings (I guess that term should be used be used more metaphorically in this game since Elves are not human, but it's the exact same idea nonetheless). If every person were imprisoned because he or she had the potential to cause harm, then everyone would be a prisoner. Of course, it is not possible to maintain a prison without jailers, so some people would be excused. Herein lies the injustice. Equlity under the law does not exist in the world of Thedas.

[TobiTobsen]

Urazz wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Also, this last resort seems to backfire a lot and not only endanger the user, but the people around them.

It does indeed seem to. Which is also a result of the Chantry's oppression as none of these mages were sufficiently taught how to wield and control these powers nor defend themselves from the very powers they summon forth.

Yeah... because we really need to teach mages, who are already very powerful, how to deal with demons to learn a form of magic that allows you to rip the lifeforce from other people, boil their blood or mindcontrol them.

There is a reason that kind of magic is forbidden. I don't see not a single possibility where you could do good with blood magic. That stuff is like the dark side of the force. And I don't see people complain the jedis don't teach that to their padawans.

I don't think he said they needed to be taught blood magic.  No he was saying they need to be taught how to control their powers and face demons in the fade.  He's basically saying the Circle needs to be more of a school than a prison.

Isn't that exactly what they do in the circle? Train the children, teach them and then test them with the harrowing.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mages weren't angellical beings before the Chantry destruction and the Annullment would happen anyway, I just sided with Meredith because the Chantry's destruction was the last straw (fitting the quest name).

Neither were the templars, or are you forgetting the Harrowed mages made tranquil, the rapes of mages, the torture, and the killings?

Gileadan wrote...

Templars. I was all willing to help the mages until the Chantry went boom - then it was clean-up time. Surrendering mages were spared of course, but considering the amount of abominations and blood mages I ran into during that last conflict, I think Kirkwall is a better place now, overall.

I doubt Kirkwall is a better place for murdering hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children who had nothing to do with blowing up the Chantry.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 mars 2011 - 12:33 .

[Aurelet]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Urazz wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Also, this last resort seems to backfire a lot and not only endanger the user, but the people around them.

It does indeed seem to. Which is also a result of the Chantry's oppression as none of these mages were sufficiently taught how to wield and control these powers nor defend themselves from the very powers they summon forth.

Yeah... because we really need to teach mages, who are already very powerful, how to deal with demons to learn a form of magic that allows you to rip the lifeforce from other people, boil their blood or mindcontrol them.

There is a reason that kind of magic is forbidden. I don't see not a single possibility where you could do good with blood magic. That stuff is like the dark side of the force. And I don't see people complain the jedis don't teach that to their padawans.

I don't think he said they needed to be taught blood magic.  No he was saying they need to be taught how to control their powers and face demons in the fade.  He's basically saying the Circle needs to be more of a school than a prison.

Isn't that exactly what they do in the circle? Train the children, teach them and then test them with the harrowing.

They aren't taught how to resist the demons.  They are taught basics of accessing thier power then they get a demon put inside them to see if they CAN resist.

[TobiTobsen]

Aurelet wrote...

They aren't taught how to resist the demons.  They are taught basics of accessing thier power then they get a demon put inside them to see if they CAN resist.

But how exactly do you want to teach people to control their own emotions? That's what the demons are feeding on and even suppressed rage, sloth or pride is still there. You either have the willpower to resist your urges or you don't.

Off Topic: Just thought about the fact that teenage mages must be made of pure win for desire demons

[Well]

TheLion36 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
When every other mage is shown to be a blood mage, abomination or inciting open rebellion? Yeah, sure. The Anullment was coming, regardless of Anders or not. It's better to treat the wound than let it fester.

The wound was Meredith, she pushed the mages so they had no other choice than to turn to extremes. To be honest though I found the amount of abominations a bit overkill... My character and Merrill both used blood magic, but never turned into an abomination, however every other mage pushed into the slightest corner turned immediately.

Decimus  and  Grace were from Starkhaven I believe.How about Tarohne and what she did to the Templars.What about the Elf mage that killed his own wife?There was a herd of mages off on a killing spree.Remember The Lost Patrol.The mages werent shy about taking out Templars.Grace wanted me to kill Thrask and Tarohne killed those recruits to create some sort of  new Tevinter or something.

[Coik]

I went with the mages, mostly because the destruction of the Chantry wasn't actually their fault.

Honestly, it seemed to me that a big point of the story was that neither the Templars nor the mages were completely in the right, but nor where either group completely in the wrong.  Meredith struck me as exceptionally frightened of mages, hence her extreme crack down, which only got worse once she got her hands on Bartram's idol.  This led the mages to feeling as rebellion and eventually blood magic were their only options.  Anders pretty much just lighted a powder keg that had been ready to explode for a long time.

I'll check through the Codex again, but I'm pretty sure that I saw an entry that said that the Veil was thinner in Kirkwall than in most places of Thedas due to the actions of the Tevintar when they owned the city.  That may go a ways toward explaining why so many demons/abominations/etc. were popping up...it might just be easier for them to get to mages in Kirkwall, particularly when said mages are feeling oppressed and desperate.