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[Lithuasil]

So most mages we see in DA2 consider the circles to be bad, first of all everybodies favorite terrorist Osama bin Anders.
The question is - why?

Let's look at this, with a bit of logic, shall we? Thedas isn't exactly the nicest place to live, and from what we see, we can safely assume that, just like in real medieval times, a good 90% of the people aren't born into nobility or high citizenship, but rather the fifth child out of twelve, in some mud-hut village on a sheepfarm.
Now, what do we see in Ferelden, the only circle we actually see from the inside? Bid fancy beds, free food, large libraries? Now add in, that mages aren't forced into military service, and don't actually have to do any kind of labor aside from not getting possessed.
Joining a circle, for the vast majority of people, will be a massive improvement of their lifestyle, in every conceivable way. Even the whole restricted freedom and violent templars thing isn't that bad - after all, it's not like some farmhand is going to travel much, and it's not like there's large quantities of raiders and darkspawn around, waiting to make your life miserable - both of which usually shy away from frontal assaults on a castle full of templars, making said templars the only thing a circle mage has to worry about.
Also note, that being a mage, unless you're as extremely priviledged as the hawkes are with their father, you pose a considerable threat to yourself and everyone around you, unless being in a circle. (Not to mention, that being among people that share your gift, and therefore your problems, is probably a lot more fun then being the only mage among lot's of mundane).

With all these things in mind, why would anyone but the most lucky mages choose the permant life on the run of being an apostate over the safe and comfortable life of a circle mage? 

[Nepenthe87]

A gilded cage is still a cage.

[Xewaka]

Whenever you have a group of humans in a position of authority over another group of humans, abuses will happen.
That said, it's still miles better than the rest of the options (Being slaved in Tevinter, lynched by an angry mob, or possessed).

[gangly369]

Mages would probably argue that they arent given a choice in the matter. While some would undoubtedly agree with you, like Finn, lots of the mages feel restricted. They are stuck in a tower. For almost their entire lives. They want to be able to make their way in the world, not be forced to sit around and read tomes all day.

We also know that templars do abuse their position from time to time. We know that many mages feel that they are held in contempt by others simply for having magic. Its no wonder that they look at tervinter and wish that they could be free from the circle.

[Foolsfolly]

Xewaka wrote...

Whenever you have a group of humans in a position of authority over another group of humans, abuses will happen.
That said, it's still miles better than the rest of the options (Being slaved in Tevinter, lynched by an angry mob, or possessed).

Or being treated like an animal by the Qunari.

Why we're on this subject, isn't it really forced that all the Circles rebelled after one dust up in Kirkwall? It's not like ever Circle rose up when the Circle in Ferelden was Annuled.

It was an isolated event where a whole Circle was corrupted and the Templar there were led by an insane zealot possessed by an Idol. I just don't get how that fight has anything to do with the others.

And the Chantry getting blown up? It was a Warden apostate who'd left the Circle system. Slam dunk argument for rounding up more apostates sure but not really one for abusing those already in the Circle system.

It just makes no sense how that started a war. A Mage Warden saving the world, getting a boon to help the Circle, and then becoming an Arl would have more of reason to anger the Templars and inspire the Mages to rebell than one loon blowing up one building.

[Lithuasil]

gangly369 wrote...

Mages would probably argue that they arent given a choice in the matter. While some would undoubtedly agree with you, like Finn, lots of the mages feel restricted. They are stuck in a tower. For almost their entire lives. They want to be able to make their way in the world, not be forced to sit around and read tomes all day.

We also know that templars do abuse their position from time to time. We know that many mages feel that they are held in contempt by others simply for having magic. Its no wonder that they look at tervinter and wish that they could be free from the circle.

Sure, but as I said - like 90 percent of the people will, instead of a big fancy castle, be stuck in some village or slum their entire lives - no less restricted, but a lot less comfortable.
And while we don't have official numbers - what chance is higher, suffering serious templar abuse, or suffering at the hand of some thug/slaver/raider/darkspawn/qunari/chevalier?

[greyman33]

Nepenthe87 wrote...

A gilded cage is still a cage.

This pretty much sums it up.

Imagine you're given the option to go live in a nice house (or not so nice, remember, while the Circle in Fereldon was a nice, seemingly open place, the Gallows in Kirkwall had become every bit the decrepid prison it used to be under Tevinter rule), where conditions are better than you're probably used to.  The catch is you can never leave that house or have much, if any, contact with the people you're leaving behind.

Would you make that trade?  I don't think I would.  And the mages are not even given that choice.  Their options are move to a Circle and leave everything behind, or die on the spot.

Oh, and if you're really lucky, maybe you'll be made tranquil by a Templar or two on a power trip.

In the end, a prison is a prison, no matter what you call it or how you dress it up.  Most people would rather have freedom and take their chances then spend the rest of their lives in prison.

[Lithuasil]

greyman33 wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...

A gilded cage is still a cage.

This pretty much sums it up.

Imagine you're given the option to go live in a nice house (or not so nice, remember, while the Circle in Fereldon was a nice, seemingly open place, the Gallows in Kirkwall had become every bit the decrepid prison it used to be under Tevinter rule), where conditions are better than you're probably used to.  The catch is you can never leave that house or have much, if any, contact with the people you're leaving behind.

Would you make that trade?  I don't think I would.  And the mages are not even given that choice.  Their options are move to a Circle and leave everything behind, or die on the spot.

Oh, and if you're really lucky, maybe you'll be made tranquil by a Templar or two on a power trip.

In the end, a prison is a prison, no matter what you call it or how you dress it up.  Most people would rather have freedom and take their chances then spend the rest of their lives in prison.

It entirely depends on how the circumstances I come from are - living in Thedas, between constant war and blights kind of sucks, let's face it. And honestly, if I was born a mage in some farmer or laborer family - I'd happily turn myself over to the nearest circle.

[AlexXIV]

I guess being at the mercy of the occational fanatic or pervert may be part of it. Even if not all templars are bad, why would I wait for someone to freak out and kill me or make me tranquil?

[Camenae]

I agree with the OP in that it's not like the life for the average person in Thedas is all rainbows and roses. Commoners and peasants never had all that much freedom and individual rights, mage or not.

I think it boils down to, if mages were given the CHOICE of living in a hovel shoveling hog slops for a living and constantly risking a nobleman coming by and invoking prima nocte or drafting them into the militia, or living in isolation and comfort in a circle, yes, I think they'd probably choose the circle. But it's the taking the choice out of their hands part that chafes with most people.

I think it were me, I wouldn't run. Seduce a Templar like Cullen and I'll be set.

[caradoc2000]

Xewaka wrote...

Whenever you have a group of humans in a position of authority over another group of humans, abuses will happen.

Like this

[greyman33]

Camenae wrote...

I think it were me, I wouldn't run. Seduce a Templar like Cullen and I'll be set.

At least until the rumor gets out that you seduced him, you're accused of using blood magic to beguile a Templar, and made tranquil.

[AlexXIV]

greyman33 wrote...

Camenae wrote...

I think it were me, I wouldn't run. Seduce a Templar like Cullen and I'll be set.

At least until the rumor gets out that you seduced him, you're accused of using blood magic to beguile a Templar, and made tranquil.

In which case she wouldn't see a reason to leave either because she'd be tranquil in perfectly content ever after.

[Clonedzero]

Lithuasil wrote...

greyman33 wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...

A gilded cage is still a cage.

This pretty much sums it up.

Imagine you're given the option to go live in a nice house (or not so nice, remember, while the Circle in Fereldon was a nice, seemingly open place, the Gallows in Kirkwall had become every bit the decrepid prison it used to be under Tevinter rule), where conditions are better than you're probably used to.  The catch is you can never leave that house or have much, if any, contact with the people you're leaving behind.

Would you make that trade?  I don't think I would.  And the mages are not even given that choice.  Their options are move to a Circle and leave everything behind, or die on the spot.

Oh, and if you're really lucky, maybe you'll be made tranquil by a Templar or two on a power trip.

In the end, a prison is a prison, no matter what you call it or how you dress it up.  Most people would rather have freedom and take their chances then spend the rest of their lives in prison.

It entirely depends on how the circumstances I come from are - living in Thedas, between constant war and blights kind of sucks, let's face it. And honestly, if I was born a mage in some farmer or laborer family - I'd happily turn myself over to the nearest circle.

constant blights? in DA:O a good 3/4ths of the game most people doubted it was actually a blight since its been so long since the last one, plus the only reason the blight happened in DA:O was because smarty pants darkspawn started it

[Lithuasil]

greyman33 wrote...

Camenae wrote...

I think it were me, I wouldn't run. Seduce a Templar like Cullen and I'll be set.

At least until the rumor gets out that you seduced him, you're accused of using blood magic to beguile a Templar, and made tranquil.

I'd atleast assume that the laws and rules in place to prevent such a thing are *more* effective, then the laws and rules preventing a carta thug from doing whatever he wants with some refugees in the darktown slums, or some unguarded village.

[Camenae]

I'm certainly not saying that the Templars are perfect and always right and whatnot, but...How is the plight of mages any different from the plight of everyone else who are also not at the top of the social ladder? To me, the injustice that mages suffer is not any more worthy of sympathy than the situation of, say, the miners that Hubert forces into the Bone Pits to die to dragons.

The OP is just saying (I think) that it's likely that the mages who run will likely be even worse off than they'd be if they stayed in the circle. Which I think is just a fact and doesn't necessarily reflect on her views in terms of pro- or con-Mage rights.

A gilded cage is still a cage, true...but everybody other than the top 1% of society in the game's setting already live in a cage, and a craptastic one at that. If a gilded cage and a crappy cage are my only choices, I'd pick the gilded cage.

[Lithuasil]

Clonedzero wrote...constant blights? in DA:O a good 3/4ths of the game most people doubted it was actually a blight since its been so long since the last one, plus the only reason the blight happened in DA:O was because smarty pants darkspawn started it

True, calling it blights was poor wording, I stand corrected. This doesn't change the fact however, that darkspawn constantly *try* to get their raiding parties out there, even without an archdemon to call the shots.

[Lithuasil]

Camenae wrote...
The OP is just saying (I think) that it's likely that the mages who run will likely be even worse off than they'd be if they stayed in the circle. Which I think is just a fact and doesn't necessarily reflect on her views in terms of pro- or con-Mage rights.

A gilded cage is still a cage, true...but everybody other than the top 1% of society in the game's setting already live in a cage, and a craptastic one at that. If a gilded cage and a crappy cage are my only choices, I'd pick the gilded cage.

Pretty much correct

[syllogi]

Let's see, ripped from my family at an early age, forced to live locked up by a religious organization that constantly tells me I'm evil and cursed, not allowed to love whom I want, and if I do get pregnant, my baby will be immediately stolen from me? Awesome! NOT. Personally, I'd be an Anders (pre Justice edition) if I were a mage in Thedas. I'd rather be on the run, hunted, and persecuted and FREE than living comfortably under the thumb of templars and the Chantry.

[Camenae]

All these things you say are totally true, Teen Zombie. Mages do suffer these things, and that is certainly wrong. But the average person in an antiquated setting like Thedas or medieval Europe do suffer all those things as well. At that time, even a king's children are usually not allowed to love whom they want. Also, religious organizations like the Chantry tell everyone that they're evil and cursed lol. Women tainted Eden...mages tainted the Golden City...same difference.

Sooo, the point is, everybody is pretty much in the same boat as mages already, oppression-wise, only the average non-mage peasant isn't even taken care of materially like mages are.

[Lithuasil]

TeenZombie wrote...

Let's see, ripped from my family at an early age, forced to live locked up by a religious organization that constantly tells me I'm evil and cursed, not allowed to love whom I want, and if I do get pregnant, my baby will be immediately stolen from me? Awesome! NOT. Personally, I'd be an Anders (pre Justice edition) if I were a mage in Thedas. I'd rather be on the run, hunted, and persecuted and FREE than living comfortably under the thumb of templars and the Chantry.

Depending on how reliable Anders' description of the ferelden circle is, there's actually more free love going on there, then in most other places, convenience marriages and all.

[Greta13]

"Give me liberty, or give me death!"

I can't help but agree with this statement

[greyman33]

Lithuasil wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Let's see, ripped from my family at an early age, forced to live locked up by a religious organization that constantly tells me I'm evil and cursed, not allowed to love whom I want, and if I do get pregnant, my baby will be immediately stolen from me? Awesome! NOT. Personally, I'd be an Anders (pre Justice edition) if I were a mage in Thedas. I'd rather be on the run, hunted, and persecuted and FREE than living comfortably under the thumb of templars and the Chantry.

Depending on how reliable Anders' description of the ferelden circle is, there's actually more free love going on there, then in most other places, convenience marriages and all.

If you read the Dragon Age comic you can see that, indeed, there's plenty of free love and fraterizing with the enemy/prisoners/whatever.  You also see the result of it is persecution, public humiliation, threats of death or worse, and being told flat out that the baby will be taken away.

[syllogi]

Camenae wrote...

All these things you say are totally true, Teen Zombie. Mages do suffer these things, and that is certainly wrong. But the average person in an antiquated setting like Thedas or medieval Europe do suffer all those things as well. At that time, even a king's children are usually not allowed to love whom they want. Also, religious organizations like the Chantry tell everyone that they're evil and cursed lol. Women tainted Eden...mages tainted the Golden City...same difference.

Sooo, the point is, everybody is pretty much in the same boat as mages already, oppression-wise, only the average non-mage peasant isn't even taken care of materially like mages are.

Would you really be cool with someone telling you that if you do as they say, you'll be taken care of for life, but if you're disobedient, you'll be lobotomized or put in the Mages Prison?  The average citizen doesn't have threats like that hanging over their heads.

I'm not saying that peasants would have it much better, but they at least have a fighting chance, and they have a much better chance at changing their circumstances through hard work or luck.  Mages have no such opportunity, they are enslaved as soon as they're identified.

The Circle of Magi is a system that worked for a long time, but when even mages like Wynne express doubts and bitterness, you know that there are problems with it.  I just know that I would not be able to stand that kind of life.

[Lithuasil]

TeenZombie wrote...
The Circle of Magi is a system that worked for a long time, but when even mages like Wynne express doubts and bitterness, you know that there are problems with it.  I just know that I would not be able to stand that kind of life.

While I do like my freedom, what I can say, is that I'd stand being locked up in a big fancy castle a lot better, then growing up on a farm and living a live of heavy physical labor