108 réponses à ce sujet

[Rikaze]

Kinthalis ThornBlade wrote...

Common, people, there's a lot of misinformation here and most of you know better.

Medieval arming swords were NOT thick and heavy. In fact European's use of techniques such as distal and profile tapering were ingenious, allowing for blade geometries that resulted in weapon s that were light (from 2 to 4 pounds in weight) well balanced, and very tough.

Unlike what you've seen in movies, you cannot cut through mail in most cases. During the early medieval period mail armor was only worn by those who could afford it, or were lucky enough to salvage it from fallen foes. A spear was the preferred weapon against such armor, and the sword's point was used against it when a spear was not available.

Heavy, thick, clumsy swords were never used in battle.

I think you're misunderstanding...  Most people are agreeing with what you're saying here, that Medieval swords were not, in fact, heavy, thick, and clumsy.

But to say they were NEVER used in battle is a little ignorant.  They had to start somewhere, and they probably started at heavy, thick, and clumsy.  The post that alluded to thicker, heavier swords was also alluding to that being in a time period closer to the Dark Ages, as in prior to, or nearer the beginning of, the Medieval Era.

Furthermore, when you say mail armor, you gotta clarify a little further.  There's **Plate** Mail, and then there's your standard **Chain** Mail.  I would guess that the earliest incarnations of Chain Mail, if those were made under the same circumstances as the first bladed weapons, would probably be of as poor a quality as the weapons themselves.  Problem is, in that time period, it'd be easier to get a blade sharp than a sturdy chain mail.

Now, I don't know if Chain Mail was even available in the same time period as the first bladed weapons, but I can guarantee that lots of people throughout history, at one point, used a sword or other bladed weapon that was Heavy...  Thick....  And Clumsy.... 

And as time passed, forging became better, blacksmith's learned better how to effectively forge and create both weapons and armor, that these early incarnations were phased out, in favor of the good stuff, the stuff that no one seems to be able to get over, and thinks is the only article or incarnation of a bladed weapon ever made...

[gethsemani87]

As someone who lives in one of the old "viking countries", I've had my share of historyclasses and historyprojects in school dedicated to the vikings and their way of life.



When I say thick, long and heavy I am not alluding to 10 pound, 1 feet thick monstrosities. What I mean is that your average sword anno 1453 was far thinner, shorter and lightweight than what a norse broadsword anno 910 was. The fact is, if you bother to check it out, that swords in the Dark Ages were hacking weapons. The vikings used their swords to literarily hack through their enemies armor, chainmail in particular because the quality of the iron usually was poor enough that a good hit would make the links break and a heavy sword aided in that process just as a heavy hammer aids in the forging process. The vikings took this style of fighting with them to the British Isles and the early Anglo-Saxon swords show clear influences from the vikings.



The word clumsy is misleading, because they weren't clumsy. They were just heavier to allow for a diffrent fighting style than that which was used in Byzantium and the Muslim empires and which would eventually come to prevail in Europe. The high medieval era saw the sword transform from a hacking and chopping weapon to a slashing and thrusting weapon, the diffrence is quite profound and the two styles require vastly diffrent designs to be effective.



It is not that you are wrong Kinthalis, it is just that I am thinking of a time period that pre-date the one you are thinking of by anywhere between 150 to 300 years.

[Garvieloken]

Either way its simple fact that in any period when any armour involving mail, chain or plate, weapons used against them were rarely used for cutting and stabbing, as they just simply would not get through. They were used as more clubbing weapons, this therefore is why many people wrongly say that all weapons were heavy and clumsy dull blades. They werent but they still were mainly used for their weight more than sharpness.



Also as time went into the 14th century and plate started to be used more often, in battle those wearing full plate or even just plate mail, would very rarely actually die in battle , merely get knocked out or beaten the **** out of : )

[DesertYote]

Meh, I don't know. I think they look just fine. Granted, if someone is using a one-handed sword, I'd expect it to be in a scabbard of some sort. However, that's not a deal breaker for me. that can always be worked on in the future, anyway.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rikaze wrote...
I think you're misunderstanding...  Most people are agreeing with what you're saying here, that Medieval swords were not, in fact, heavy, thick, and clumsy.

But to say they were NEVER used in battle is a little ignorant.  They had to start somewhere, and they probably started at heavy, thick, and clumsy.  The post that alluded to thicker, heavier swords was also alluding to that being in a time period closer to the Dark Ages, as in prior to, or nearer the beginning of, the Medieval Era.

Furthermore, when you say mail armor, you gotta clarify a little further.  There's **Plate** Mail, and then there's your standard **Chain** Mail.  I would guess that the earliest incarnations of Chain Mail, if those were made under the same circumstances as the first bladed weapons, would probably be of as poor a quality as the weapons themselves.  Problem is, in that time period, it'd be easier to get a blade sharp than a sturdy chain mail.

If you want to get techincal with terms, "mail" usually refers to chain or similar types of armors. "plate" refers to plate mail.

And you are right. And wrong.
While at some point in time big, heavy, clunky swords were used, that time was EXTREEMLY short. Ever since first, bronze swords started being made and used, the blacksmiths and  warriors noted their performance and improved upon it.
By the time steel weapons emerged, the proper ways of balancing swords were used for a LOOONG time. the very first steel blades probably were a bit clunky, since teh blacksmiths needed time to get the feel of the new material. But other than that any WELL MADE sword was light, well balanced and strong.
The only heavy and clunky swords were either ceremonial in nature or really bad copies. You could find those even the old days, since not everyone was a master blacksmith, altough such blacksmiths tended to have very short careers. Bad knockoffs are FAR more common today.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 31 octobre 2009 - 11:21 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rikaze wrote...
I have taken a look.  It is debateable.  You're arguing with the massive amount of difference in human physiology, not with my post.  Besides, my hands ARE longer than my face.  I happen to have very long, very skinny hands.  I happen to be a long, skinny guy in general.  For you to say that the difference in human physiology is not debateable is akin to claiming we should all be exact clones of one another.  It's RIDICULOUS.  (NOT redicolous, learn to spell please.)  Furthermore, I failed to say this properly in my last post, so I'll say it again, but correctly this time.  The hands in DA:O are the best generalization of human physiology regarding the hands, in my opinion.

Lol.. Last time I checked, freakishly big hands aren't a norm among humans.
You might have huge hands so it might seem allright to you. But it's not. There's a thing called a median.


Heh...taht said, does anyone bother with links? Here I make a link to a comprehensive study on dimensions and weights on swords and apparently, no one even looked. Tsk...why do I even try to educate people...

[Inhuman one]

I am guessing Bioware has thrown in swords of all ages like most developers do in any medieval fantasy game.



I personly am hoping I wont see a katana or scimitar since it would be out of place, unless you visit regions where it makes sense.



Thats what was weird in Neverwinter Nights, katana's where found everywhere while the setting was in the west. Then again, magical items where sold by every peasant in this game as well.

[Xaemoon]

You can't please everyone. It would be impossible for the developers to make weapons that please every single person in the entire world. SOMEONE would have a nitpick about it, and they'd post on this forum about how displeased they are, and then go on to talk about how a big company like Bioware should be able to read their mind.



Step 1: Build a Bridge.



Step 2: Get over it.



Step 3: Wait a couple weeks for the modding community to make 8 million new weapon models like they did for every other game that was ever released with a toolset.

[windsock]

Rikaze wrote...I think you're misunderstanding...  Most people are agreeing with what you're saying here, that Medieval swords were not, in fact, heavy, thick, and clumsy.

But to say they were NEVER used in battle is a little ignorant.  They had to start somewhere, and they probably started at heavy, thick, and clumsy.  The post that alluded to thicker, heavier swords was also alluding to that being in a time period closer to the Dark Ages, as in prior to, or nearer the beginning of, the Medieval Era.

If you look at early swords, Greek, Egyptian, and Mesopotamian ones, they're not really what you'd call "thick heavy and clumsy"

http://upload.wikime.../f/f3/Kopis.png

Then you have the gladius, which evolved into the spatha, and from there you get your "medieval" arming swords, broadswords, etc.

Furthermore, when you say mail armor, you gotta clarify a little further.  There's **Plate** Mail, and then there's your standard **Chain** Mail.  I would guess that the earliest incarnations of Chain Mail, if those were made under the same circumstances as the first bladed weapons, would probably be of as poor a quality as the weapons themselves.  Problem is, in that time period, it'd be easier to get a blade sharp than a sturdy chain mail.

Now, I don't know if Chain Mail was even available in the same time period as the first bladed weapons, but I can guarantee that lots of people throughout history, at one point, used a sword or other bladed weapon that was Heavy...  Thick....  And Clumsy.... 

"Chainmail" (really just mail armor) existed during the time of the Greeks and of the Romans. It was, as far as we know, a Celtic invention. Everyone pictures the Romans wearing the segmented plate armor known as "lorica segmentata", but in reality they wore mail for most of the time, known as "lorica hamata". They also had less used scale armor.

And as time passed, forging became better, blacksmith's learned better how to effectively forge and create both weapons and armor, that these early incarnations were phased out, in favor of the good stuff, the stuff that no one seems to be able to get over, and thinks is the only article or incarnation of a bladed weapon ever made...

Obviously things get better over time, but remember - they're called the dark ages for a reason, some things got lost and had to be rediscovered or relearned. Don't forget the legions of anime fanboys who decry western swordsmanship just because katanas have sleek lines and are damned good swordmaking.

Modifié par windsock, 02 novembre 2009 - 11:12 .