32 réponses à ce sujet

[imadipp]

First of all i'd like to say that i'm no where near good enough to play on Hardcore or Insanity. I play this game for fun and normally I play on Veteran. It's challenging enough, with some hard spots thrown in to mix it up.

My question is how others play on lower difficulties compared to just the Insanity gameplay I see everywhere. I'm assuming the normal Vanguard build goes like this;

10 - Inferno Ammo
10 - Squad Cryo Ammo
10 - Heavy Charge
1 - Shockwave
0 - Pull
10 - Champion
10 - Slam/Reave

Now, I hate to say it but I can't play this way. I can't say anything about it's effectiveness, because i'm sure that it's superior to the way I play, but like I said, I play for fun. Inferno ammo is nice but I always hated how it does no additional damage to Mechs (YMIR mechs are the bane of my existence, and i'm too stubborn to use the Statis trick on them)

My build for Veteran is normally; 

1 - Incendiary ammo
0 - Cryo Ammo
10 - Heavy Charge
10 - Improved shockwave
10 - Pull field
10 - Champion
10 - Heavy Warp Ammo

Heavy warp ammo is 50% damge to all barriers, armor and health by my understanding, which to me makes it more useful than Inferno ammo, at least on the difficulty I'm playing. I'm currently using the Mattock as a long range/pistol replacement, with the Scimitar for mostly shielded enemies, and the Eviscerator for armor/barriers, changing according to what i'm facing. I don't use the claymore because of my assault rifle training, and the Geth Shotgun is nice, but I miss more often than with the other shotguns, so it's improvements don't count for so much on the hole. Warp ammo is also great with pull/mattock for unchargable enemies.

How do you play on lower difficulties? Is there anyone that uses the kind of build I use on insanity with any kind of skill that might give hope to me when I decide to squish my vanguard against the harder difficulties?

[mcsupersport]

I actually prefer Vanguard on Hardcore and above, BECAUSE of the protections on enemies. Ironic that for Vanguards the protections usually make it easier, because the enemies aren't flying across the screen every time you charge. In Veteran and below I end up playing more a hybrid adept, and only charging some usually groups to launch one and blast the others, but that is me. Personally I would run Reave, if you don't like Stasis, and probably lower Shockwave to two levels and Pull three levels, taking those points and putting them in Incen ammo.
So...

10 Incendiary ammo(Inferno)
0(1) Cryo
10 Heavy charge
3 Shockwave
6 Pull
10 Champion(or whatever floats boat)
10 Area Reave
Bonus weapon would be sniper rifles and tote the Eviscerater.

[imadipp]

On enemies without defences I normally use warpbombs, Pull/warp ammo combos, and use charge whenever enemies have defenses. Reave is a great power, I will say. How do you normally approach Ymir mechs as an enemy? By themselves i'm fine, but they're normally not alone. I'd put more faith in Inferno ammo if it did damage to all health and not just organic health, albeit the CC of the ability is great on organics.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

Inferno Ammo, Area Charge, Area Shockwave, Area Pull, Champion, 1 point in slam. Burning enemies flying everywhere = fun.

[MadCat221]

My loadout is:

• Inferno ammo 4: No matter what, Inferno Ammo 4.  Light 'em up.
• Cryo Ammo 1 (only for that last few points at the very end)
• Area Charge 4: Bowls over everyone around you, not just the one you hit.
• Shockwave 2: Only to unlock Pull.
• Pull Field 4: Useful for prying out stubborn foes, and also works wonders on Husk clusters.
• Champion: Survivability over damage.  You're already up in their face with a high-damage short-range weapon.  But you don't have the cover to retreat behind as often.  Plus, better cooldown shortening, which means more charging.
• Reave 3: Useful for the "O CRAP" moments when they're hammering you and you're into your health bar.  Also useful for a quick hit to armor or barriers.  It also stuns organics.  It's like half Warp, half Neural Shock.

Bring along Miranda or Thane to do Warpsplosion combos with your Pull.  And just to do Warpsplosions on biotic foes with Barriers in general.  If you're in a level with a lot of shielded foes or bots, bring someone with Overload to compensate for the reduced effectiveness of your fire ammo.  Also, don't overlook Zaeed: I set Zaeed to have Squad Disruptor Ammo just a couple hours ago to do the Tali recruitment mission.

For shotties, I take the Scimitar.  Highest DPS of all the shotguns, beating even the Claymore, unless you factor in the reload punch cheat.  It's not a jack-in-the-box gun, it requires a bit of an aggressive approach to get the most out of it.  You have to keep firing rapidly to really achieve that high DPS; it's otherwise the worst in damage per shot.  Apply liberally.

Modifié par MadCat221, 26 mars 2011 - 05:31 .

[imadipp]

I'm surprized to see no Squad Cryo suggestions over pull field/shockwave. Shockwave is a lot of fun but Squad Cryo does seem to be more effective in game terms. Thanks for the replies so far, though I assume a lot of players consider anything below hardcore to be doable with just about anything XD.

Edit: Also, i'm seeing an Area over Heavy trend on the lower difficultes for charge. The extra shield and time dilation worth losing compared to the 3 meter burst?

Modifié par imadipp, 26 mars 2011 - 05:44 .

[MadCat221]

Cryo has the annoying habit of making foes fall down behind cover.  Plus, it does nothing against anything besides bare targets.  Granted, there's a lot more bare targets in <=Veteran, but they still fall down behind the cover.

Pull has the handy habit of making people float upwards and out of cover... and sometimes over a long drop.  Plus, it makes your foe vulnerable to being Warpsploded by Miri or Thane.  Or if you're feeling sadistic, you can give them a gentle multi-hundred-newtons-of-force shove as well.  They're completely at the mercy of ragdoll physics while pulled; Concussive shot from one of your combat squaddies, Throw from one of your biotic squaddies... or just ram them full steam yourself with Charge.

The whole reason I think Area Charge is better than Heavy Charge is the multiple foe threat.  If you have Heavy Charge, would you fly right into a grouping?  No, because you'd be hosed.  That extra 25% may or may not protect you.  Wheras Area Charge...  you send them all flying, or at least staggering.  I also do an action pause about one second after I charge to assess who's left standing after I plow into their group.

Heavy charge is good if you want to be a rhino with blinders.  Area charge is more versatile.  You don't need the sheer damage that Heavy Charge enables you to inflict like you do in Hardcore or Insanity.

Modifié par MadCat221, 26 mars 2011 - 06:05 .

[Influ]

MadCat221 wrote...

The whole reason I think Area Charge is better than Heavy Charge is the multiple foe threat.  If you have Heavy Charge, would you fly right into a grouping?  No, because you'd be hosed.

Well I most certainly will. If the enemies are tight packed enough to be hit by Area Charge then they will get utterly destroyed by my Inferno Scimitar and melee attacks. And that was on insanity. But still, Area Charge is worth considering on veteran and below. Personally, I don't like to use Charge to send enemies flying. It's way faster to kill them with shotguns up close (obviously).

And I support Improved Shockwave on veteran and below for the fun factor. It's effective in disabling enemies for a while, although like with Area Charge (and even more so), it might send enemies flying into somewhere you don't want them to. But it is extremely fun to use and that's a huge plus in my books.

[Badpanzer]

imadipp wrote...

 Inferno ammo is nice but I always hated how it does no additional damage to Mechs (YMIR mechs are the bane of my existence, and i'm too stubborn to use the Statis trick on them)

While I have finished the game with a Vanguard i dont consider myself a good Vanguard player...however...

If not all then almost all the Ymir mechs are fairly easy to kill at any level as there is usually a sweet spot you can take cover in that they cannot reach.
There are some good video's of this on you tube showing you exactly where to go.
(for example at Freedoms progress you just run into the building on your left..the mech cant get you there)
Also I believe Inferno ammo does effect the armour on a Ymir mech so its not totally useless.

[MadCat221]

Influ wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

The whole reason I think Area Charge is better than Heavy Charge is the multiple foe threat.  If you have Heavy Charge, would you fly right into a grouping?  No, because you'd be hosed.

Well I most certainly will. If the enemies are tight packed enough to be hit by Area Charge then they will get utterly destroyed by my Inferno Scimitar and melee attacks. And that was on insanity. But still, Area Charge is worth considering on veteran and below. Personally, I don't like to use Charge to send enemies flying. It's way faster to kill them with shotguns up close (obviously).

And I support Improved Shockwave on veteran and below for the fun factor. It's effective in disabling enemies for a while, although like with Area Charge (and even more so), it might send enemies flying into somewhere you don't want them to. But it is extremely fun to use and that's a huge plus in my books.

The only time I've ever had Area Charge toss a foe somewhere I don't want them to go is over the edge, to which I go "Aww, I wanted to shotgun them!"  Usually, the angles involved means they won't fly behind cover that would protect them. 

Inferno ammo only makes unprotected organic foes do the fire swat dance and does nothing to protected foes beyond extra damage to armor, while area charge will stagger all but big protected foes (YMIRs, Harbinger) and WILL affect 'bots (LOKIs have a satisfying crunchy sound when you ram them and smash off limbs).  After that, you take a moment in Action Pause after charging to assess your situation (who's got the biggest gun, who is protected and only staggered, who was jeuuust outside the AoE) and decide who gets fed the first buckshot sandwch.  

Inferno ammo does help shore up the shotty's lackluster performance against armor, though.

Modifié par MadCat221, 26 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[Kronner]

MadCat221 wrote...
For shotties, I take the
Scimitar.  Highest DPS of all the shotguns, beating even the Claymore,
unless you factor in the reload punch cheat.

Not true.

a) GPS edges out Scimitar
Reload cancel/trick is not a cheat - confirmed by BioWare dev.

MadCat221 wrote...
Inferno ammo only makes unprotected organic foes do the fire swat dance and does nothing to protected foes beyond extra damage to armor

Not true.

Inferno Ammo does cause the fire dance to protected enemies in the 3m radius - as long as it hits the health of one enemy (usually the one you Charge) - no problem with any shotgun.

[Influ]

@MadCat221: Well yeah, with Area Charge it's more that I'd rather not send them flying at all. You get damage bonus for shotguns (and other weapons, excluding snipers and heavies) at close range and of course they aren't that effective at range anyway. Of course there's the Geth shotgun, but I wouldn't use it as a Vanguard. And what's great about Inferno Ammo is that it's 3m AoE blast stuns even shielded enemies.

Modifié par Influ, 26 mars 2011 - 05:33 .

[imadipp]

That's part of my question. I suppose it would be better worded as "On lower difficulties is the "fire dance" still as important as on higher difficulties. Warp ammo's damage is only 10% less, and effects -all- health, barriers, and armor, while Inferno ammo's only affects armor, and organic health, with a 3m cc.

[MadCat221]

Hmmm. An interesting question.

Gonna play a bit with fire ammo emptied and put all into warp ammo instead.

Other considerations: Its effectiveness is amplified like Warp on pulled foes from what I understand.

Modifié par MadCat221, 26 mars 2011 - 07:57 .

[Kronner]

imadipp wrote...

That's part of my question. I suppose it would be better worded as "On lower difficulties is the "fire dance" still as important as on higher difficulties. Warp ammo's damage is only 10% less, and effects -all- health, barriers, and armor, while Inferno ammo's only affects armor, and organic health, with a 3m cc.

Now, keep in mind that the actual damage bonus the Ammo power adds is calculated from basic weapon damage.
Which means that Inferno Ammo is better than Warp Ammo in almost any situation, because the CC effect you get from Inferno is a lot better than very small damage bonus you get from Warp ammo.

On low difficulty level, such as Normal or Veteran, enemies have very little health and almost no protections - that makes ammo power such as Warp basically useless and not worth 10 points.

Warp Ammo does get 2x damage bonus against targets affected by biotic powers such as Pull, but even without Warp ammo, such enemy is as good as dead.

Some people really overrate the effect of some ammo powers.
Ammo powers are good only if they provide CC - Inferno, Cryo and Disruptor are very good.

Armor Piercing and Warp Ammo powers are good only for certain builds such as Widow Infiltrator (on Insanity; on lower difficulties you do not need that to 1S1K with the Widow).

Shredder Ammo is totally useless.

Modifié par Kronner, 26 mars 2011 - 08:13 .

[imadipp]

Instead of 50% it'll do 100% against enemies in a warp field such as pull field. Keep in mind that I use the Mattock or another assault rifle as my anti-armor/Longer Distance weapon. I've read that all ammo damage is considered before weapon damage, so if an enemy has a sliver of shields left, and you shoot, you do no extra fire damage to that enemy, as the damage hit the shield, did 0 since it doesn't effect shields, and the weapon damage took the shields down. With Warp ammo this is -only- the case with Shielded enemies, while with Incendiary it's true for Shields/Barriers and Inorganic health.

[Kronner]

imadipp wrote...

Instead of 50% it'll do 100% against enemies in a warp field such as pull field. Keep in mind that I use the Mattock or another assault rifle as my anti-armor/Longer Distance weapon. I've read that all ammo damage is considered before weapon damage, so if an enemy has a sliver of shields left, and you shoot, you do no extra fire damage to that enemy, as the damage hit the shield, did 0 since it doesn't effect shields, and the weapon damage took the shields down. With Warp ammo this is -only- the case with Shielded enemies, while with Incendiary it's true for Shields/Barriers and Inorganic health.

Again, you overrate the damage bonus Warp Ammo gives you.

You said you played on low difficulty level - where ammo powers are useless.

Example:

Mattock - 50 damage per shot
Upgrades - 7 AR Damage upgrades = 70%
Bonuses - Champion 9%, Armor +15% weapon damage
Defense modifiers - Shields and Barriers 1,2; Armor 1,3

Damage against shields and barriers: (without the range modifier)
1+0,7+0,09+0,15 * 50 * 1,2 = 116,4 per shot

Damage against armor: (without the range modifier)
1+0,7+0,09+0,15 * 50 * 1,3 = 126,1 per shot

And Warp ammo gives you extra 0.5*50 = 25 damage per shot.
If you figure in range modifier, it is even less important.

Inferno Ammo gives you greater bonus against armor AND free CC effect. On low difficulties, enemies have little health, so the damage bonus is even less important, while the CC effect still gives you better survavibility/defense in CQC.

Modifié par Kronner, 26 mars 2011 - 08:36 .

[imadipp]

I posted about the same time as you, I wasn't actually expecting a youtube vanguard to come to the conversation.

In my experience, I need all the help I can get. I used Inferno ammo for a long while before trying warp ammo/other ammo powers. I can go to any Insanity video and point out how much the cc effect of Inferno ammo is superior to damage. My only problem is that's all it seems useful for. On the lower difficulties, I don't believe ammo powers are useless. I play on Veteran, and I notice a difference without having an ammo power active,on my Vanguard and sentinel.

This -could- very well be because I use the scimitar and not the claymore, i'm not sure. It just seems like the cc is wasted on enemies of lower difficulty, and the access to biotics like Improved Shockwave and Pull field outway the limited damage affects of Inferno ammo. Though, i'm sure i'll come around eventually, like the Carnifex looking better on paper, then running out of ammo on you x.x.

I don't mean to sound stubborn, because I agree with you for the most part. I just think the cc would be more useful when enemies are more dangerous, and the damage would be more useful overall. I'm probably wrong, but still XD

Edit: Thanks for the discussion so far!

Modifié par imadipp, 26 mars 2011 - 08:29 .

[imadipp]

Kronner wrote...

imadipp wrote...

Instead of 50% it'll do 100% against enemies in a warp field such as pull field. Keep in mind that I use the Mattock or another assault rifle as my anti-armor/Longer Distance weapon. I've read that all ammo damage is considered before weapon damage, so if an enemy has a sliver of shields left, and you shoot, you do no extra fire damage to that enemy, as the damage hit the shield, did 0 since it doesn't effect shields, and the weapon damage took the shields down. With Warp ammo this is -only- the case with Shielded enemies, while with Incendiary it's true for Shields/Barriers and Inorganic health.

Again, you overrate the damage bonus Warp Ammo gives you.

You said you played on low difficulty level - where ammo powers are useless.

Example:

Mattock - 50 damage per shot
Upgrades - 7 AR Damage upgrades = 70%
Bonuses - Champion 9%, Armor +15% weapon damage
Defense modifiers - Shields and Barriers 1,2; Armor 1,3

Damage against shields and barriers: (without the range modifier)
1+0,7+0,09+0,15 * 50 * 1,2 = 116,4 per shot

Damage against armor: (without the range modifier)
1+0,7+0,09+0,15 * 50 * 1,3 = 126,1 per shot

And Warp ammo gives you extra 0.5*50 = 25 damage per shot.
If you figure in range modifier, it is even less important.

Inferno Ammo gives you greater bonus against armor AND free CC effect. On low difficulties, enemies have little health, so the damage bonus is even less important, while the CC effect still gives you better survavibility/defense in CQC.

Well, i'm ignorant, time to show it. All I see here is showing that with warp ammo, I get 25 more damage per shot against Barriers/armor/health. While Inferno ammo would be 30 damage to enemy armor/organic health, with a cc. When I look at it like that I see;

Warp ammo / Inferno ammo
Enemy hields: + 0 / +0
Enemy Bariers: +25 / +0
Enemy Armor: +25 / +30
Enemy Health +25 / +30 organic only. (this isn't much of a problem since most enemies are organic.)

So what that boils down to is 75 bonus damage overall, to 60 bonus damage overall with a cc. Even if that's grossly wronged, I see it as comparing;

Warp Ammo: 75 bonus damage, 140 bonus to warp-fielded enemies
Inferno Ammo: 60 bonus damage, 3m-4sec stun.

I can see where you are coming from, like I said, though I still don't consider ammo powers useless. If you were to discount the damage entirely, the Inferno Ammo would win out as it does a stun and doesn't cost you the Advanced training slot. With the damage boosts being validated, I would see warp ammo as a better choice FOR lower difficulties, where damage (again, in my opinion) would be more useful.

Modifié par imadipp, 26 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[Kronner]

How many enemies have Barriers on Veteran?
And again, 25-50 extra damage is not that good, if you do 116 - 232 damage per shot, depending on range. Especially on low difficulty, where enemies have very little health and defense points..


edit:

imadipp wrote...
Warp Ammo: 75 bonus damage, 140 bonus to warp-fielded enemies
Inferno Ammo: 60 bonus damage, 3m-4sec stun.

140 bonus what? It gives extra 50 damage points per Mattock shot, but again, enemies flying in the air are as good as dead, the bonus is irrelevant.

edit 2:

By useless I mean that it is not worth taking ammo power as a bonus if you have access to Inferno Ammo.

Modifié par Kronner, 26 mars 2011 - 09:27 .

[imadipp]

[quote]Kronner wrote...

How many enemies have Barriers on Veteran?
And again, 25 extra damage is not that good, if you do 116 - 232 damage per shot, depending on range. Especially on low difficulty, where enemies have very little health and defense points..[/quote]

There is a certain skill level where "Very little" isn't very little to some people. Comparitively, yes, enemies have very little health when based against the higher difficulties. I claimed to be a moderate player, veteran is about my limit of fun/challenge without the frustration. The damage is a bonus when you aren't good enough to always charge and survive, or even survive some moderate encounters. I don't have the skill to overcome bad luck/placement of myself after a charge.

That being said, the reason for my asking if warp ammo was better is because since switching to it I -seem- to die less and, overall, kill enemies faster. My aim is good at best and marginal other times, which is why I can't use the claymore.

[quote]imadipp wrote...
Warp Ammo: 75 bonus damage, 140 bonus to warp-fielded enemies
Inferno Ammo: 60 bonus damage, 3m-4sec stun.[/quote]

140 bonus what? It gives extra 50 damage points per Mattock shot, but again, enemies flying in the air are as good as dead, the bonus is irrelevant. [/quote]

This isn't much of a bonus, but YMIR mechs, once they hit health, are effected by pull for a few moments, falling limp. Warp ammo does 2x damage when affected by warp fields.

Edit: Again, thanks for the discussion so far. I'm perfectly fine being proven wrong if it helps me become a better player. I just had questions and within my experience, Inferno ammo never excelled as people had claimed, hence the question.

Kronner, I know you'll say Claymore is your favorite, and that's fine, but what do you think of the Scimitar in comparison? In experience, not on paper.

Modifié par imadipp, 26 mars 2011 - 09:13 .

[Kronner]

imadipp wrote...

There is a certain skill level where "Very little" isn't very little to some people. Comparitively, yes, enemies have very little health when based against the higher difficulties. I claimed to be a moderate player, veteran is about my limit of fun/challenge without the frustration. The damage is a bonus when you aren't good enough to always charge and survive, or even survive some moderate encounters. I don't have the skill to overcome bad luck/placement of myself after a charge.

That being said, the reason for my asking if warp ammo was better is because since switching to it I -seem- to die less and, overall, kill enemies faster. My aim is good at best and marginal other times, which is why I can't use the claymore.

I only presented a Mattock example, if you consider Shotguns, and close combat, Inferno ammo should be much better than Warp, I honestly do not see any situation where Warp ammo would be better in close combat.
You get the x2 range modifier, which makes the extra damage from Warp Ammo irrelevant.

imadipp wrote...
This isn't much of a bonus, but YMIR mechs, once they hit health, are effected by pull for a few moments, falling limp. Warp ammo does 2x damage when affected by warp fields.

If you managed to get YMIR down to health and used Pull against it, you have won the battle, and you will easily kill such YMIR.

imadipp wrote...
Edit: Again, thanks for the discussion so far. I'm perfectly fine being proven wrong if it helps me become a better player. I just had questions and within my experience, Inferno ammo never excelled as people had claimed, hence the question. .

You are very welcome. I really do think Inferno Ammo is easily superior to Warp Ammo. It should set all organic enemies within the 3m radius on fire, giving you great opportunity to kill them very easily.
You must also consider that Warp ammo takes up bonus power slot, which could be used for more useful power, for example Stasis.

imadipp wrote...
Kronner, I know you'll say Claymore is your favorite, and that's fine, but what do you think of the Scimitar in comparison? In experience, not on paper.

Scimitar is extremely effective weapon, very forgiving, and easy to use. Scimitar is a really good choice. You can easily stun enemy groups with Scimitar + Inferno Ammo, or freeze them with Cryo Ammo.
I do not use it because I want to one shot people on Insanity, and I love the look and sound of the Claymore.
All shotguns are roughly equally effective, it comes down to personal preferece IMHO.

Modifié par Kronner, 26 mars 2011 - 09:28 .

[imadipp]

Would the close range benefit Inferno ammo more than Heavy warp ammo? or are you referring to the 3m cc?

[Kronner]

imadipp wrote...

Would the close range benefit Inferno ammo more than Heavy warp ammo? or are you referring to the 3m cc?

The CC.
In close range you do so much damage that extra 50 points (instead of 25; it gets doubled in melee range) is really irrelevant.

[imadipp]

That may have been my confusion the whole time, really. Gah. Figuring as the WEAPON damage is the only thing doubled, I can see your point more clearly now as to why the ammo power damage is so insignificant. The same can be true of my Sentinel, so maybe Ap ammo isn't so useful on his shotgun XD.

Though, it does match quite well.