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Where Does the Vitriol Come From? Whence Come the Haters?


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#151
slimgrin

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bEVEsthda wrote...

I've been through this before. It's not about that DA2 is bad or good. It's all about that it's DA2.
So people are not mad about DA2 being a crappy game. They are mad about the death of the Dragon Age franchise (as originally conceived).
And yes, PC-gamers perhaps care much more about a thing like Dragon Age.


They care much more because now they can tick yet another franchise off the ever shrinking list of CRPG's. Pretty soon pc gamers will be relying on European devs alone for this genre.

#152
Akka le Vil

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Disnaster wrote...

I'm sorry, but my (very) basic reading comprehension seems to miss something: where did you say it's a very nice game? Honestly, I don't see it...

Ok, my bad. I did write it in a previous version of my post, but I scrapped it and it got lost into the rewording. Your reading comprehension is okay, it's my memory who's feeling the effect of old age.

Throw me stones, I deserve it.

#153
dheer

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Disnaster wrote...
So, please, without hating ME, can anybody explain the hate toward the game?

I can only give my opinon on the game but no, I don't hate it. I would say I'm extremely disappointed / dismayed at what happened to the second installment after how much I loved the first game.

From a design perspective, the choice of exploding bodies poked with a dagger, enemies appearing out of thin air in every single fight, recycled envirionments, no travel out side of a few foothill trails, amongst many others make me wonder and how anyone thought these were actual improvements. Origins was not perfect in any way but expecting existing systems and gameplay mechanics to be improved on and not thrown out and replaced with something inferior is not some crazy concept for a second game in a series. This isn't a review thread but these are just a few examples of why I think the way I do about this release.

To disagree with some others, the writing is as strong as ever to me, and holds the game together in what would have otherwise been a complete disaster.

#154
the_one_54321

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Disnaster wrote...
With my original Xbox...

On the 360...

This is why you don't understand.

No, this is not a "console players suck" comment. On that system, DAII has been an improvement in a lot of ways. Especially over DA:O which was never tooled very well for a console.

So from your point of view, things have only gotten better. From other points of view they have gotten worse.

#155
Impmacaque

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Console player here.

The hatred for the re-used environments, half-assed & incohesive story, countless bugs, garbage gear/stat system, flat and uninspired dialogue, and lack of impact your PC has on the game world are all universal complaints.

This game is objectively flawed in too many ways. From a lesser developer, we might consider this an average RPG. However, coming from Bioware and especially considering the greatness that was DA:O, this game is pretty inexcusably bad. The vitriol is coming from some of the biggest fans of the franchise who are all in disbelief that Dragon Age 2 is what it is.

#156
Siansonea

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I didn't enjoy the combat in DA2. Call me a proponent of "dumbing down" but there are times when I wish I had a "skip combat" button the same way there is a "skip dialog" button. I don't know why there isn't one, frankly.

Personally, I could never really get into Dragon Age Origins, the graphics and unvoiced protagonist just didn't hold my interest, though I played the entire prologue part of that game. I absolutely loved Mass Effect 1 & 2, and the change to a voiced protagonist is the reason that I not only purchased Dragon Age 2, but pre-ordered it. I've since completed one playthrough, and started a few more characters. Overall I wouldn't say that I love it as much as Mass Effect, but it's been a fun game and held my interest throughout. There is room for improvement, but I could say that about every game. I am somewhat disappointed with the environments, I don't think the graphics quality is on par with some other games out there. I don't think the combat system is balanced for people who don't want to be experts at combat (i.e.: Casual is anything but). I think some of the voice acting is a bit flat (the same could be said of most games), and I think there are a few story elements that could have been addressed differently. But I could write a laundry list of quibbles with both Mass Effect games too. I enjoyed Dragon Age 2, and for all that the old-school RPG crowd probably hate people like me for embracing all the changes to the genre that they hate, I have to say that I do like them. Not everyone wants to play a game that requires an engineering degree to complete. Not everyone wants to play a game that rewards you for button mashing in very dexterous ways. Games have to evolve to attract new customers. I'm one of those new customers, I've only been console gaming for a few years, starting with Mass Effect 1. And this game has been more than adequate to me. I will probably purchase any new DLC that comes along, and play through the game several more times. Will it ever replace Mass Effect at the top of my list of favorite games? Probably not. But so far it's comfortably in my top ten.

#157
the_one_54321

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Impmacaque wrote...
The hatred for the re-used environments, half-assed & incohesive story, countless bugs, garbage gear/stat system, flat and uninspired dialogue, and lack of impact your PC has on the game world are all universal complaints.

This game is objectively flawed in too many ways. From a lesser developer, we might consider this an average RPG. However, coming from Bioware and especially considering the greatness that was DA:O, this game is pretty inexcusably bad. The vitriol is coming from some of the biggest fans of the franchise who are all in disbelief that Dragon Age 2 is what it is.

Also this.

#158
Sentox6

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Crash_7 wrote...
re: Crysis graphical comparison.  I'm not sure how this is relevant?  The graphics were paired down to support the consoles?

I'm just referring to the note in the third paragraph: the compelling reason for Crysis 2 going multiplatform is because the PC is not considered profitable enough as an exclusive platform anymore.

re: NVidia.  They had better start funding PC gaming then hadn't they.  That or PC component manufacturers will be going out of business.

Not necessarily. Lack of exclusives =/= end of PC gaming. The 360 has had a dearth of exclusives in recent times, but it's doing fine as a console.

The PC market will survive regardless of the intentions of major publishing houses.  When player A vacates a market player B takes it up.

Agreed. PC gaming isn't dying, but the nature of it is evolving. High-budget, heavily-marketed titled exist primarily as multiplatform games these days, with a few exceptions.

slimgrin wrote...
You can post all the links you
want. Consoles are still the more limited platform by a mile. Console
based publishers just love to blow hot air to justify why they're too
stingy to give equal parity across all platforms.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, right here. Of course the PC, when specced appropriately, is the better platform. Platform superiority =/= profitability.

There seems to be a conspiracy that PC gaming would be exactly in the same place it always was except that publishers decided to screw the platform just because they could, as some sort of personal insult to PC owners. Get real. All of the major publishers are just in it for the profit, and clearly consoles are a more profitable environment for AAA titles these days. PC sales are down. I don't buy the ridiculously inflated estimates of piracy publishers trumpet, but piracy is undoubtedly up as well.

Go publish a $50m title and see how inclined you are to bring 'parity' (which generally does not satisfy PC enthusiasts, who demand superiority) to the platform with the weakest sales, and by far the most development complexity (just look at the relative size of the PC, PS3, and 360 tech support forums here for anecdotal evidence). Any games programmer will tell you that coding for a platform with almost infinite variations is a lot more complex that coding for one hardware spec.

I'll take a PC version any day of the week unless it's horribly broken. But I accept the realities of the market, too.

Modifié par Sentox6, 26 mars 2011 - 09:50 .


#159
Disnaster

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Akka le Vil wrote...

Disnaster wrote...

I'm sorry, but my (very) basic reading comprehension seems to miss something: where did you say it's a very nice game? Honestly, I don't see it...

Ok, my bad. I did write it in a previous version of my post, but I scrapped it and it got lost into the rewording. Your reading comprehension is okay, it's my memory who's feeling the effect of old age.

Throw me stones, I deserve it.


Zing!

#160
Sentox6

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Firmly within genre according to who? To you?  And what power do you have? Because I really think you should relabel your own extensive collection of arcade adventure games.

Don't be obtuse. Collective opinion self-evidently classifies DA2 as an RPG. I can't really post the whole internet and every magazine here. If you want to blindfold yourself and pretend otherwise, go for it. I don't have to prove anything.
 

Let's put it this way. Role-play is acting the character's role. RPG is like a drama's stage where we perform our acting. The book of acting is your wiki quotation trying to write the basis of acting. It's in no way trying to tell what stage should be for drama. Period.

I'm having trouble even making sense of this, frankly.

Look, in DA2 you play a role. You make choices. Just because the character is partially pre-defined, and your interactions are limited to defined categories of behavior, does not mean the game suddenly becomes an entirely different genre.

Modifié par Sentox6, 26 mars 2011 - 10:20 .


#161
bEVEsthda

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Sentox6 wrote...

There seems to be a conspiracy that PC gaming would be exactly in the same place it always was except that publishers decided to screw the platform just because they could, as some sort of personal insult to PC owners. Get real. All of the major publishers are just in it for the profit, and clearly consoles are a more profitable environment for AAA titles these days. PC sales are down. I don't buy the ridiculously inflated estimates of piracy publishers trumpet, but piracy is undoubtedly up as well.


It's not quite that simple. Yes, they're in it for the money (and power to them). But it's not like they just follow the market. They also make strategic decisions. To make more money in the long run, at least as their marketing people perceive it. Retailers and publishers moved away from PC long before PC market took a dive. It's a created situation. Main blame for PC games crumbling has to go to piracy. It's much worse than most gamers want to believe. Particularly after sites like Pirate Bay made things easily available.
But another reason is that Microsoft has basically pulled the rug under PC gaming. They have their XB360 platform on the market. And inside MS, the leadership is allowing the XBox people to trample PC-gaming and make gains on the expense of PC-gaming. There is no free competition inside Microsoft. XBox market share is all.
It's foolish of course, and a colossal strategic mistake by MS, which may spell their eventual doom. But MS haven't had a clue since Gates stepped down.

#162
Lotion Soronarr

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Shirosaki17 wrote...

Pretty sure it's 4chan, or RPGcodex. They are coming over here and spamming hate threads, because everyone else I know loves DA2.


Interestingly enough, opposite for me.

Everyone I know is severaly dissapointed with it....

#163
Sentox6

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bEVEsthda wrote...
It's not quite that simple. Yes, they're in it for the money (and power to them). But it's not like they just follow the market. They also make strategic decisions. To make more money in the long run, at least as their marketing people perceive it. Retailers and publishers moved away from PC long before PC market took a dive. It's a created situation. Main blame for PC games crumbling has to go to piracy. It's much worse than most gamers want to believe. Particularly after sites like Pirate Bay made things easily available.

I don't think it's so much a case of the market being abandoned because of a forecast decline in profitability as it is a shift towards console development because of the increased attractiveness of that sector.

But another reason is that Microsoft has basically pulled the rug under PC gaming. They have their XB360 platform on the market. And inside MS, the leadership is allowing the XBox people to trample PC-gaming and make gains on the expense of PC-gaming. There is no free competition inside Microsoft. XBox market share is all.
It's foolish of course, and a colossal strategic mistake by MS, which may spell their eventual doom. But MS haven't had a clue since Gates stepped down.

There's no doubt Microsoft's promises about supporting PC gaming have been nought but hot air, but I can't conceive of any situation where this will spell their doom.

#164
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Pretty sure it's 4chan, or RPGcodex. They are coming over here and spamming hate threads, because everyone else I know loves DA2.


Interestingly enough, opposite for me.

Everyone I know is severaly dissapointed with it....


I agree, I don't personally know anyone that likes or thinks it is a better game than Origins is but I do know people who are disappointed by it in one or more ways. It is easy, however, to toss around labels and associations on people who have a differing opinion to discredit said opinion. There is nothing wrong with liking DA 2, I do not like it though and would prefer not to be branded with a label.

Modifié par Ryllen Laerth Kriel, 26 mars 2011 - 10:54 .


#165
strinder

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Shirosaki17 wrote...

Pretty sure it's 4chan, or RPGcodex. They are coming over here and spamming hate threads, because everyone else I know loves DA2.



God I'm sick of this.  We have reasons.  Were not trolls.  If you care about my reasons you can see them here:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6528101

and here:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6540891/1

#166
bEVEsthda

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Sentox6 wrote...
There's no doubt Microsoft's promises about supporting PC gaming have been nought but hot air, but I can't conceive of any situation where this will spell their doom.


The Windows-PC is their platform. They don't have any other solid market. There's decreasingly less reasons for a Windows-PC to be a mainstream article. Everyday contact, information, service and media needs can be handled by convenient and mobile devices, like smart-phones and pads (and will be, just watch the pad market explode). While there will always be reasons for the PC to survive as a server or powerful workstation, that is not a mainstream market. Which means costs will increase. Which will mean it will become even less a mainstream article. ...which leads to increasing costs...
As the PC is more marginalized, and use becomes more specialized, there will also be less reasons to use MS Windows as OS for it.
Despite all Ballmer's foolish declarations, MS has no share of the markets which will take over everyday computing, and never will have. It's already standardized on Apple and Google. Google will become(/is) the big monopoly, because they have their tentacles everywhere, are completely ruthless and unethical, and are already controling how the market evolves.

They way you defend your platform is with applications. Like Lotus, Basic, MS-Office, ...you get the idea. Those don't work anymore, because you don't need a PC anymore for those levels of computing & storage needs. But instead of defending the Windows-PC's position, by inventing and supporting new uses, new applications, which take advantage of the increased computing capacity for mainstream use, MS have basically done nothing in that direction since gates stepped down. They have clumsily fumbled to follow other's lead into new markets instead.

The opportunity is there, otherwise. Plain and obvious. They've already built an impressive foundation for it in DirectX. The center of home media. Entertainment software. Like Amazing games. And amazing online experiences. It's a golden opportunity. And they're doing nothing. On the contrary, they're lagging to pave way for the XBox.

Now, in the long run, the XB360 market is not worth much. MS have mostly subsidized the XBox, taking losses. And All will change with each new generation of consoles. And I can promise you one thing: The day Apple decides to release a gaming console, it's all over. Game over.

#167
Bathead

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I'm not buying this 4chan stuff either. Unfortunately, there are a number of trolls and spammers who are making it look bad for those who have constructive criticisms to offer. The same goes for some praising the game while trashing those who don't. Both sides need to calm the heck down.

#168
Celuwen

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Disnaster wrote...

I've just seen so much nasty stuff written about what is essentially a really good game. As amazing as its predecessor? No. But still, I'd rather waste 40+ hours on an "okay" Bioware title than 20 on any other publisher's stuff.

And really, I've tried playing other games on the PC. Can't do it. I much prefer consoles.


This is how I feel about it too. And I'm a PC gamer. 

#169
Sentox6

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bEVEsthda wrote...
-snip-
The opportunity is there, otherwise. Plain and obvious. They've already built an impressive foundation for it in DirectX. The center of home media. Entertainment software. Like Amazing games. And amazing online experiences. It's a golden opportunity. And they're doing nothing. On the contrary, they're lagging to pave way for the XBox.

I was with you until this point. You make the point that the PC's functionality is becoming increasingly relegated to more specialised devices, which is quite true. But I see no compelling reason why gaming can somehow become the bastion of PC usage. If smartphones and pads can take over communication and information needs, then consoles can take fulfil entertainment and gaming needs. Increasingly, they are. It would be paradoxical for the PC's primary purpose to become a gaming platform: it's simply an excess of functionality for a singular purpose. The PC as we know it is probably on the way out. The 360 is just a specialised PC; a subset of functionality, which is in line with the trends you yourself point out.

Imo, Microsoft's best opportunity is to preserve the one key factor that makes the PC superior: its software openness. Encourage homebrew and customisation, and you have a market segment that will never be satisfied by closed devices.

And I can promise you one thing: The day Apple decides to release a gaming console, it's all over. Game over.

Maybe, maybe not. Microsoft's foray into console gaming didn't kill Sony. The immense appeal of the Wii hasn't sunk the 'core' consoles. Apple have never been able to triumph against Microsoft in the OS market. It doesn't follow that everything Apple does will somehow monopolise the market.

#170
bEVEsthda

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Sentox6 wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
-snip-
The opportunity is there, otherwise. Plain and obvious. They've already built an impressive foundation for it in DirectX. The center of home media. Entertainment software. Like Amazing games. And amazing online experiences. It's a golden opportunity. And they're doing nothing. On the contrary, they're lagging to pave way for the XBox.

I was with you until this point. You make the point that the PC's functionality is becoming increasingly relegated to more specialised devices, which is quite true. But I see no compelling reason why gaming can somehow become the bastion of PC usage. If smartphones and pads can take over communication and information needs, then consoles can take fulfil entertainment and gaming needs. Increasingly, they are. It would be paradoxical for the PC's primary purpose to become a gaming platform: it's simply an excess of functionality for a singular purpose.

We're so off topic here. Posted Image But fun enough.
I didn't say it would be the primary purpose, and I certainly didn't mean it would be limited to run console type of games. I said entertainment software and I had much fancier things in mind. Not the primary purpose of the PC, but the primary reason to have a PC instead of something else (like a dumb console), for all your home computing, storage and connection needs. And I think you severely underestimate how much PC-gaming has already meant for the cost- and performance-development history of the PC. And also underestimate how much directX has meant for the market share of Windows.

The PC as we know it is probably on the way out. The 360 is just a specialised PC; a subset of functionality, which is in line with the trends you yourself point out.

No. The 360 is nothing at all like a PC.
But the reason MS launched the XBox, and paid good money for doing it, most of the way, was to use competition as a way to stop Sony from establishing a new mass market computing standard. If they hadn't, Sony PS could have eventually become the new PC, conquering computing tiers from below, just as the PC did.
And sure, MS can use the XBox inline with the trends I pointed out. Only, they're not going to survive by it. Everything changes with each new generation, since nobody achieves standard status. And XBox position on the console market has very much been purchased with money earned from their Windows OS business.

Imo, Microsoft's best opportunity is to preserve the one key factor that makes the PC superior: its software openness. Encourage homebrew and customisation, and you have a market segment that will never be satisfied by closed devices.

The devices are not "closed"? Many, many applications engineered as we speak, are already aimed at the phones and pads. What "homebrew and customization"? You mean hardware? Well in that case we're back with consumer high performance use, meaning gaming?

 Microsoft's foray into console gaming didn't kill Sony. The immense appeal of the Wii hasn't sunk the 'core' consoles.

Sony was in a lot of trouble. But Microsofts execution was flawed. First, they didn't provide anything different from what Sony was providing. Just another console. Second, their hardware quality was severely inferior. Primarily, MS paid for the XBox market penetration. Used raw money, and sacrificed PC-gaming, forcing gamers to go to the 360 instead of the PC for titles.. And they were up against Sony's immense number of titles for Sony's previous success. Sony's old PS2 saved their ass until production costs of the PS3 came down.
Wii, finally, is a completely different kind of contraption.
Now I don't know that Apple intends to ever launch a game console. (Maybe they end up using games to ensure dominance of their iPad instead. Who knows?). But if they ever do, I'm quite sure it's not going to be anything same like the other consoles. And money won't help MS then, cause Apple has a lot more.

Apple have never been able to triumph against Microsoft in the OS market. It doesn't follow that everything Apple does will somehow monopolise the market.

They've never monopolized any market. Just taken big bites. They've never tried in the PC-OS market, if that's what you mean. (They've totally triumphed over MS in the mobile OS market.) Jobs was kicked out by the investment capitalists. MS Windows achieved status of standard while Apple leaders had no clue this was the competition target. They were only interested in high margins. When Jobs eventually reconquered Apple with the help of his new company, Next, Apple was worth 7b and MS 250b. Today, not so many years later, Apple is bigger than MS. So today is a completely different competition. MS will be a future margin player. The really big future player, and main threat to anyone else, including Apple, is Google. And I'll tell you a secret: Google fundamentally don't like PCs, and have a clever plan to get rid of them. Google wants all your computing, all your connections, all your storage, everything in their power, under their scrutiny, on their servers. And you're already paying Google money, in roundabout ways you don't know of. And you're already doing things Google wants you to do, in roundabout ways you don't know of.

#171
supertouch

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where's the data to suggest console gaming has become more popular over the last 15 years?

#172
augustburnt

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thatbwoyblu wrote...

Yes it is mostly P.C elitist. To make matters worst these dude is 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 years old and crying over a video game. Can you say MAN BABY EMO:o

Do you need help with that chip on your shoulder?

#173
Euno17

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Ah.  Did you read what I wrote?  Yes, I liked the game.  But I made clear that I found the repeat environments, the abrupt ending--to name a few things--quite lame.  Like your post.  Do I think Bioware does a great job with their stories?  Yes.  Do I think they took chances with this game?  Yes.  Did all of them work?  No.

So high fives all around for what went right--and when something DOES work, it deseves praise--and kicks in the arse for the stuff that didn't.  And one for people who don't read everything a person writes.


Oh stop it.

Topic: "Where Does the Vitriol Come From? Whence Come the Haters?"

That's all that I need to say. But you know, now I am a little curious. What in the blue hell did they do right? THAT's what I want to know.

Was it 'when you press a button, something awesome has to happen'?

Modifié par Euno17, 27 mars 2011 - 02:04 .


#174
Euno17

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double post for some reason . . .

Modifié par Euno17, 27 mars 2011 - 02:04 .


#175
Otterwarden

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Siansonea II wrote...

I didn't enjoy the combat in DA2. Call me a proponent of "dumbing down" but there are times when I wish I had a "skip combat" button the same way there is a "skip dialog" button. I don't know why there isn't one, frankly.


I suspect because it would make it about an hour game.

Modifié par Otterwarden, 27 mars 2011 - 02:14 .