251 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

I keep hearing on the forums about Mage freedom and how mages deserve to be treated like everybody else, now let's see what you've got. Name me a better alternative to the Circle of Magi, I've heard quite a few arguments in other threads and I'd like to see what a more condensed topic can create.

[mellifera]

Hogwarts.

[Dave of Canada]

yukidama wrote...

Hogwarts.

Which is essentially the Circle of Magi, they just kill the crazy / dangerous / possessed mages. Imagine how easy it could've been for Harry if some random Templar killed all the crazy ass mages!

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 mars 2011 - 07:46 .

[ShrinkingFish]

No need. Circle of Magi is destroyed. Old news. Guess we just get to wait and see what comes next.

Maybe once all the extremists kill each other, the smoke clears and only the sensible people are left an actual solution can be discussed and quiet possibly put into effect.

But what ended up happening to the Circle is proof enough that it was not a viable solution to the problem.

[Esbatty]

Maybe there could be some kind of special land where we can put all the mages and they can open casinos and trinket stands? Ya know, like Las Vegas but alot less hookers and alot more magical!

[ShrinkingFish]

Magical hookers sounds kind of nice... Isabela's line about the electricity got me a little curious.

[GSSAGE7]

I thought the problem was with Meredith being power-mad, as opposed to the Circle system itself. Aside from Anders, Uldred's blood mages, and Morrigan, I don't recall a lot of people in Origins complaining. Even Jowan was more annoyed at not being able to be with... whatever her name was, and as far as I remember, that could also be blamed on her Chantry vows.

[Camenae]

A decision-making panel with both Mage and Templar members.

[Esbatty]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Magical hookers sounds kind of nice... Isabela's line about the electricity got me a little curious.

Apostate prostitutes? Aprostitutes!

[ShrinkingFish]

Esbatty wrote...

Aprostitutes!

Make it happen Bioware.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 26 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Dave of Canada]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Maybe once all the extremists kill each other, the smoke clears and only the sensible people are left an actual solution can be discussed and quiet possibly put into effect.

The "sensible people" will realize there is no actual clear cut solution.

If Mages win:
Mages will have to create a Circle system where mages are taken away from their families for training, similar to the way it functions in Tevinter Imperium, or else we'd have abominations running rampant. This isn't very much different than what the Circle did before the Templar involved themselves, the only difference is that mages are ruling over the Circle instead.

We've heard of how prejudice and suspicious the people of Thedas are, mages are killed and feared by the public because of their abilities and for every single mage that does actually reach the Circle, we've got a few who didn't. How do the mages protect themselves from the normal people that hate them?

They either oppress them and take their rights or sit back and be destroyed, mage freedom will have come at the cost of everybody else's freedom. We've already been shown that the Tevinter Imperium isn't some fantastic Mage paradise and this system would prove the Chantry right. They cannot let the public opinion sour and fight back, that'll only let them be overthrown by the public and be forced back into the Circle of Magi.

If Templar win:
Mages will be shoved into the towers again, the public would probably feel that the Circles are justified and the public view on mages won't be well regarded. Any sympathy they might've gained over the years will have disappeared and it'll be hopeless for the mages to struggle, they'll have lost.

[DanteCousland]

Get rid of the circle of magi but keep templars, if a mage uses blood magic or uses their magic for greater harm than good then torture them to death as a message to other mages. The templars act like a parole officer does checking up on mages, anyone who does not declare they have a mage in their family will all be executed including said mage. It's harsh punishments but much greater rewards given as long as the mages behave themself they get to live a free life.

[IronWolf1987]

Triangle of Magi.

[Dave of Canada]

Camenae wrote...

A decision-making panel with both Mage and Templar members.

Already exists. Gregoir can't do certain things without Irving's permission, for example when giving permission to tranquil Jowan. The mages themselves around Thedas united in Cumberland to discuss if they should break free from the Chantry, meaning they have some semblance of independence and are allowed to make choices that impact mage lives throughout Thedas.

[Sternchen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I keep hearing on the forums about Mage freedom and how mages deserve to be treated like everybody else, now let's see what you've got. Name me a better alternative to the Circle of Magi, I've heard quite a few arguments in other threads and I'd like to see what a more condensed topic can create.

Maybe it´s the word CIRCLE what is the point.. no begin and no end.. means not the possibility, to break out.. i would like, to name it "Mages home" or "Mages refuge".. this sounds more, like a place, where i would go as a mage

[GSSAGE7]

Sternchen wrote...

i would like, to name it "Mages home" or "Mages refuge".. this sounds more, like a place, where i would go as a mage

That sounds more like where you send the old mages who the demons don't want to posess anymore.

[Sternchen]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

 That sounds more like where you send the old mages who the demons don't want to posess anymore.

lol.. i didn´t meant to create a retirement home for mages..lol.. but, maybe, it´s a good idea

[GSSAGE7]

I just thought of something. Do parents of mages get visitation rights? That would probably make things a lot more bearable if mommy could visit her little fireball thrower every once in a while. I remember Anders mentioning making a world where "no mage would be taken from his family" or something to that effect, yet the mage from Witch Hunt is apparently on such good terms with his family that his mother can make a hat that fits him.

[ShrinkingFish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Maybe once all the extremists kill each other, the smoke clears and only the sensible people are left an actual solution can be discussed and quiet possibly put into effect.

The "sensible people" will realize there is no actual clear cut solution.

You seem awfully assured of the course of events that you couldn't possibly know... And assuming that there are only two alternatives to the question is close-minded, near-sighted, unnecessarily limiting and, furthermore, entirely hopeless.

If these are the only possible alternative, which the history and culture of of the Dragon Age universe have pointed out that they are not, then we might as well keep the war going indefinitely until everyone is dead.

You either forget, ignore or are not aware that the "mage problem" is a matter of perspective. With a change of perspecitve the problems change.

Rivaini hedge mages are said to allow themselves to become possessed... that this is an ancient tradition put forth by a society that had been been practicing this tradition for centuries. If what the Chantry says about abominations is true, then wouldn't that society have consumed itself early on? Or over the course of hundreds of years? Why would mages subject themselves to this if it was truely as evil and destructive as is claimed?

The Chantry makes a lot of rather extreme claims about the dangers mages pose to the rest of humanity but people forget that mages have existed for much longer than the Chantry itself. And abominations weren't considered a big enough problem until the Chantry deemed it a valid excuse in solidifying their power base.

As such it would seem that the vast majority of the issues with abominations are a product of the Circles themselves in that they forbid the study of demons and blood magic, lumping them both into the same pot of "greater evils",  and neglect the possibility of strength and defense through understanding.

Furthermore, blood magic is not inherently evil. However, the Chantry deems it necessary to forbid it just as fervently as consorting with demons. As such, when a mage first experiments with blood magic and finds that it is not as horribly evil and damning as the Chantry always said it was, is it not reasonable for that mage to assume that perhaps the Chantry lied about demons as well?

Thus, is not the Chantry itself responsible for those under their tutelage who become possessed?

In the end, the final answer is unknown. But it is clear that the Circle of Magi, in both of its incarnations, is not a viable solution to the problems mages present. Other avenues must be explored or else there will be an eternal cycle of abuse and war. Which may very well be what the world is fated to as long as narrow-minded individuals make all the rules.

[dgcatanisiri]

My problem with the Circle is the isolation, the removal from the life choices others can make, the being treated as sub-human (and sub-elf). The Chant says 'magic must serve man, not rule him.' How does that translate to 'remove mages from society and lock them away.' I'd have no problems with the Circle if they weren't taking children away from their families to never see them again. Let the families communicate, visit, even. Perhaps even templar-supervised visits to their families every now and then.

Basically, I just ask that mages be treated humanely and with respect, rather than just shoving them in the Circle and making them live their lives in there. I absolutely believe that the restrictions placed on the mages have created numerous maleficar and blood mages that wouldn't have had they just been treated as if they have rights. It's wrong to lock someone up for a crime that they MIGHT commit.

[ShrinkingFish]

Dave of Canada wrote...


The mages themselves around Thedas united in Cumberland to discuss if they should break free from the Chantry, meaning they have some semblance of independence and are allowed to make choices that impact mage lives throughout Thedas.

End result: Every Circle under Chantry control rebelled. And the Templar's left the Chantry entirely, abandoning it in persuit of the rebelling mages. Whole world plunged into a great religious war without anyone reigning in the zealots. So clearly the Circle of Magi didn't do its job.

Did you miss the epilogue or something?

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 26 mars 2011 - 08:24 .

[AntiChri5]

In Origins, Alistair says that the consumption of Lyrium is not required to learn Templar abilities.

We also know that Alistair started Templar training fairly late in his life, so it can't be tremendously hard or require a great deal of focus or discipline to learn.

The best way to end the opression of mages is to give the common people the ability to defend themselves from magic. Rather then restricting the knowledge to a small order who are controlled by a religion with a grudge against mages.

With a significant percentage of the population capable of defending from mages, the restrictions on them can be greatly lessened.

[ShrinkingFish]

To put my arguments into perspective let me say that I used to feel that the Circle of Magi was, while flawed, the best solution to a very real problem.

After the events of Dragon Age 2 it is now clear that the Circle of Magi is a system that is far to flawed to function as needed. Therefore the institution must be torn down and replaced by something better, something that actually works.

[Dark-sider77]

The Tiventer Imperium as long as your a magister but it kinda sucks otherwise...i guess you have the Dalish but they are tribal so their circumstances are totally different and cant be applied to more traditionally civilized cultures. We dont really know anything about the elves of Arlathan so i don't think they count, they may have been just as bad as Ancient Tiventer for all we know, and Merrill says that they may have all been mages which would also be completely different from all of thedas civilization as of Dragon Age. Then there are the qunari but i doubt the people who dislike the chantry's treatment of mages would prefer the qunari treatment of mages

So i dont think there are any existing examples that would be better than the chantry circle under present circumstances. Personally i think there is room for improvment within the circles but after DA2 gradual reform seems to have been thrown out the window, for the moment at least.

[Dave of Canada]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

The Chantry makes a lot of rather extreme claims about the dangers mages pose to the rest of humanity but people forget that mages have existed for much longer than the Chantry itself.

The dangers that we've seen shared by the Chantry actually all exist in the game, we've seen them a plenty in Dragon Age 2. Mind control, necromancy, blood magic, demon summoning, abominations... those aren't idle problems that wouldn't frighten people.

Mages did exist before but how do you think they dealt with abominations? IIRC, it was mentioned somewhere that before the Templar order existed, people would simply endure the Abomination until it was killed or left. They'd have to rebuild after it was dealt with, I doubt the public would love this system.

And abominations weren't considered a big enough problem until the Chantry deemed it a valid excuse in solidifying their power base.

Random people being turned into creatures that can kill hundreds of people isn't a big enough problem until the Chantry has to mention it's a problem?

The risk of somebody being possessed by a demon at any moment, being able to influence the minds of others

As such it would seem that the vast majority of the issues with abominations are a product of the Circles themselves in that they forbid the study of demons and blood magic, lumping them both into the same pot of "greater evils",  and neglect the possibility of strength and defense through understanding.

Abominations are still in a problem in Tevinter which doesn't have much of a problem with blood magic and/or summon demons.

Furthermore, blood magic is not inherently evil.

Summoning demons to do your bidding and having the capability to mind control people against their will isn't evil, no. Will it be used for evil? Extremely likely, there's not a lot of practical "good" uses for it. Let's also not ignore how demons / blood magic tend to try and usurp you and take your place in your mind, like Merrill's demon who tried to "help" her.

However, the Chantry deems it necessary to forbid it just as fervently as consorting with demons.

They don't forbid it completely, Ferelden's Circle itself had books on blood magic in the library for study. They only removed it when they assumed a student was practicing.

is it not reasonable for that mage to assume that perhaps the Chantry lied about demons as well?

If a mage who was fighting against demons mentally for years suddenly decided that they weren't evil and allowed them to possess them, the mage isn't being reasonable. The Chantry teaches mages how to fight back against demons, they even have them do the Harrowing.

If any mage saw that the Chantry was lying about the badness of demons, they'd probably be the foolish ones that the demons were trying to get from the start.

Thus, is not the Chantry itself responsible for those under their tutelage who become possessed?

... and all the mages who'd become possessed under the Chantry's teachings and knowledge are probably the ones who'd be possessed regardless of Chantry or not. Tevinter Circles still have their abomination problems and they aren't as shy on the subject of forbidden magic.

Not all possessions are willing either.

In the end, the final answer is unknown. But it is clear that the Circle of Magi, in both of its incarnations, is not a viable solution to the problems mages present.

And that's why I asked for a better alternative.

Other avenues must be explored or else there will be an eternal cycle of abuse and war.

Other systems already exist and we've been shown that they work either.

Which may very well be what the world is fated to as long as narrow-minded individuals make all the rules.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 mars 2011 - 08:38 .