251 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

It's a vicious cycle, but there's more than enough blame to go around on both sides. There certainly were maleficar hiding in the circle, and they should have been found out and punished. That's part of what the first enchanter is supposed to do.

Not when the lunatic Knight-Commander may well have Annulled the Circle if that evidence was revealed.

[TEWR]

The Closet Geek wrote...

The problem with the Circle as it stands is that it's all stick and no carrot.  Anyone with an iota of understanding about human behaviour can see that this is a broken system that won't last.

Forget ideals about freedom and self-determination.  Let's talk pragmatically.  Yes, a mage, particularly an untrained one, is far more dangerous than your average Joe.  Unchecked, those with fewer scruples will abuse their powers, make no mistake (and they don't even need demons or blood magic to do it.)  Leaving the mages to police themselves is unwise, however - all it takes is one particularly charismatic bastard saying "they did it to us first" or "we're naturally superior, it's our right to rule," and you're barrelling towards another Tevinter.  Don't scoff, it's happened countless times throughout our history.

The problem with imprisoning the many to prevent the abuses of the few, though, is that it breeds resentment, desperation and anger.  How many mages turned to demons and blood magic out of geniune malice, and how many out of a desperate desire to escape their situation?  And how completely idiotic is it to place the wellbeing and safety of a minority group into the hands of another group who are taught that they are evil?  Considering how little oversight the Templars appear to have, and how few rights and little recourse the mages have to stop abuses of Templar power, I'm not surprised that the Circles revolted.  Endless punishment and no reward breeds rebellion, not obedience.

To get mages to act responsibly and integrate peacefully into society, you need to give them incentive to do so.  A person who is a part of a society has a much bigger stake in its stability and more reason to defend it.

• Start with fostering better ties to non-mages.  Give them reason to see non-mages as something other than oppressors or chattel.  Encourage family visits, friendships outside the tower, community service.  Let them actually help people in designated job areas, like clinics or guard service or the military.
  
• Get in some oversight for the Templars.  A secular mediator, representing whichever nation the Circle is located in, acting as a neutral third party to firstly, protect the interests of the mages in the Circle as subjects of the monarch, and secondly, to act in the interests of the nation should the worst occur.  Any disciplinary action beyond a talking-to, up to and including the Rite of Annulment, would require the approval of both the mediator and the Knight-Commander.
  
• Get rid of the Rite of Tranquility altogether, and lay down tight and definite rules as to what punishment is allowed for what crime.  If mages can express dissent without fear of being turned into a zombie or executed, it gives them a lot more options when they're unhappy than turning blood magic.
  
• Reward mages for good behaviour.  A mage who has passed their apprenticeship gets to leave the Circle if they want.  Give them an amulet or a token with their name on it and a number.  Keep a record in the Circle of mages who've passed their apprenticeship, with copies of the records kept in major population centres.  The number on the amulet corresponds to the number next to the mage's name in the record books, preventing forgery.  Any mage with a valid amulet is free to do as they please, provided they break no laws.
  
• Change the message in the Circle's education.  Right now, it's "magic is evil, you are cursed, we lock you up for everyone's good."  Teach mages that they've been given a gift - a dangerous one, but one that can do a lot of good if used right.  Teach them that their power is a responsibility to others around them, and a challenge to undo the wrongs perpetrated by the Tevinters and other malificar.
  
• No more executing apostates on principle.  Apostate /= malificar.  Arrest them, take them to the Circle for testing.  If they pass the apprenticeship test, note them down in the records, give them their amulet & let them go.  If they don't pass, mandatory detention at the Circle and retraining until they do.

The Circle should be a sanctuary and a training ground, not a prison for all mages.  The original concept wasn't too bad, but heavy-handed Chantry oversight and a lack of safeguards made them counter-productive to the goal of peaceful co-existence with mages. 

Well said ser. Well said. I agree and propose this be the new plan.

[General User]

The Closet Geek wrote...

The problem with the Circle as it stands is that it's all stick and no carrot.  Anyone with an iota of understanding about human behaviour can see that this is a broken system that won't last.

Forget ideals about freedom and self-determination.  Let's talk pragmatically.  Yes, a mage, particularly an untrained one, is far more dangerous than your average Joe.  Unchecked, those with fewer scruples will abuse their powers, make no mistake (and they don't even need demons or blood magic to do it.)  Leaving the mages to police themselves is unwise, however - all it takes is one particularly charismatic bastard saying "they did it to us first" or "we're naturally superior, it's our right to rule," and you're barrelling towards another Tevinter.  Don't scoff, it's happened countless times throughout our history.

The problem with imprisoning the many to prevent the abuses of the few, though, is that it breeds resentment, desperation and anger.  How many mages turned to demons and blood magic out of geniune malice, and how many out of a desperate desire to escape their situation?  And how completely idiotic is it to place the wellbeing and safety of a minority group into the hands of another group who are taught that they are evil?  Considering how little oversight the Templars appear to have, and how few rights and little recourse the mages have to stop abuses of Templar power, I'm not surprised that the Circles revolted.  Endless punishment and no reward breeds rebellion, not obedience.

To get mages to act responsibly and integrate peacefully into society, you need to give them incentive to do so.  A person who is a part of a society has a much bigger stake in its stability and more reason to defend it.

• Start with fostering better ties to non-mages.  Give them reason to see non-mages as something other than oppressors or chattel.  Encourage family visits, friendships outside the tower, community service.  Let them actually help people in designated job areas, like clinics or guard service or the military.
  
• Get in some oversight for the Templars.  A secular mediator, representing whichever nation the Circle is located in, acting as a neutral third party to firstly, protect the interests of the mages in the Circle as subjects of the monarch, and secondly, to act in the interests of the nation should the worst occur.  Any disciplinary action beyond a talking-to, up to and including the Rite of Annulment, would require the approval of both the mediator and the Knight-Commander.
  
• Get rid of the Rite of Tranquility altogether, and lay down tight and definite rules as to what punishment is allowed for what crime.  If mages can express dissent without fear of being turned into a zombie or executed, it gives them a lot more options when they're unhappy than turning blood magic.
  
• Reward mages for good behaviour.  A mage who has passed their apprenticeship gets to leave the Circle if they want.  Give them an amulet or a token with their name on it and a number.  Keep a record in the Circle of mages who've passed their apprenticeship, with copies of the records kept in major population centres.  The number on the amulet corresponds to the number next to the mage's name in the record books, preventing forgery.  Any mage with a valid amulet is free to do as they please, provided they break no laws.
  
• Change the message in the Circle's education.  Right now, it's "magic is evil, you are cursed, we lock you up for everyone's good."  Teach mages that they've been given a gift - a dangerous one, but one that can do a lot of good if used right.  Teach them that their power is a responsibility to others around them, and a challenge to undo the wrongs perpetrated by the Tevinters and other malificar.
  No more executing apostates on principle.  Apostate /= malificar.  Arrest them, take them to the Circle for testing.  If they pass the apprenticeship test, note them down in the records, give them their amulet & let them go.  If they don't pass, mandatory detention at the Circle and retraining until they do.

The Circle should be a sanctuary and a training ground, not a prison for all mages.  The original concept wasn't too bad, but heavy-handed Chantry oversight and a lack of safeguards made them counter-productive to the goal of peaceful co-existence with mages. 

Word. Mos Def, Word.
 
I’d only like to go a bit further on point 2. That is I favor a system where the Circle (or it’s replacement) is under Crown (i.e. government) jurisdiction, and the Chantry is limited to an advisory role. 
 
Of course, the current Templar force will have to be entirely done away with, scraped completely. They have proven themselves to be a disloyal and dangerous element. 
 
That said, maleificarum and abominations are very real threats to the people of Thedas. Any ruler, or ruling body, would be remiss in their duty if they failed to address these threats. As I see it, that means creating ‘Templar Teams’ as units of the local army, guard force. Expect this move to be unpopular with the nobility, who find themselves suddenly obligated to maintain on a permanent basis just such a unit.  You would need a strong King/Queen to make it stand up.
 
Any former Templars willing to forsake their vows to the Chantry and take service with the Crown should be allowed to do so. Not only does this allow the Crown/nobility to tap into a readymade pool of trained manpower, but it also provides an honorable ‘out’ for those honorable Templars who have found themselves caught up in events.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And why exactly would any nationalized circle treat their mages better? What is it with peoples' idea that as soon as the mages are out of Chantry control, they will magically (poor choice of words ye) be treated better? They won't. The way magic is viewed is deeply rooted in the psychology of Thedas. They will not find any better treatment anywhere.

[chelseaisthepan]

1. Find a secluded island far away from civilization
2. Put all mages on it
3. ?????
4. Profit! ...maybe.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

IanPolaris wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

So rulership, level of technology, architecure, the fact that countries in Thedas are fantasy counterparts of those in real life etc., you all ignore?

Not ignore, simply put into perspective.  The fact is that social attitudes even within the game are not midaeval, and certain rights are assumed along with the notion of fair trials (except of course for mages) that aren't midaeval either.

Sure the Kingdom of Fereldan may look like a kingdom, but it seems to operate like a republic and gives citizens rights that we'd expect in a Western democracy.  The other places we see are similar.

That's not a knock on Dragon Age.  Almost all fantasy worlds are like this....but don't go calling Thedas a Midaeval world just to support your argument about one tiny slice of it!  It's emphatically not.  [The technology and architecture are also backdrops.  They also don't make it a midaeval world.]

-Polaris

Kings and Grey Wardens can arbitrarily have people killed. That said, there's no reason there couldn't have been any "fair trials" in the dark ages.

Things like torture and discrimination etc. are all present. I wouldn't exactly say that city elves get 'fair treatment'.

Ferelden seems to be the exception in politics, i'm lead to believe. Arls and Banns are something exclusive to Ferelden, or so I've heard.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 17 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[General User]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And why exactly would any nationalized circle treat their mages better? What is it with peoples' idea that as soon as the mages are out of Chantry control, they will magically (poor choice of words ye) be treated better? They won't. The way magic is viewed is deeply rooted in the psychology of Thedas. They will not find any better treatment anywhere.

Well… Alistair would certainly treat them better, but you’re right, not every king is Alistair.  But, then again, very little is equal between the nations of Thedas.  Take labor systems, Tevinter has slavery, Orlais serfdom, and Ferelden freeholders.  I expect nationalized circles would be little different in this regard, some would be 'better' (for mages) than others.
 
 
The thing is, I’m really looking at better treatment of the mages as a secondary goal, very important, but still taking a backseat to what I’ll call, for lack of a better term, ‘the Divine Duty of Kings.’ That is, the duty all rulers have protect their subjects along with their Right to do so as they think best, to my way of thinking that includes both mages and non-mages.
 
I look at the Chantry controlled Circles and I see usurpation, the Chantry has taken unto themselves a series of Rights and Duties to which they are not entitled, Rights and Duties that belong to the Crown. 
 
And what’s worse, as of Kirkwall, the Chantry (and I do blame the Chantry as a whole, not the Templars) failed in their self-appointed charge. The system has collapsed, and something must replace it. That something should be as humane a system as possible, one that balances both the general public’s legitimate concerns for safety and an individual mage’s right to, at least a certain degree of, freedom.

I think The Closet Geek's ideas come close to doing just that.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And why exactly would any nationalized circle treat their mages better?

Better than the Chantry controlled Circles, where the mages across Thedas rebelled against the Chantry and the Order of Templars?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What is it with peoples' idea that as soon as the mages are out of Chantry control, they will magically (poor choice of words ye) be treated better?

People are providing alternatives to the Chantry controlled Circles, since some of us think they've failed the mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They won't. The way magic is viewed is deeply rooted in the psychology of Thedas. They will not find any better treatment anywhere.

You think they won't, and you're entitled to your opinion, but not everyone shares that opinion.

[ReallyRue]

The Circle of Magi. As it is, but without the Chantry being in control of it, and having the Templars more as police than jailers. They can deal with the bad mages, but restrict the reasonable mages less. Family members could be allowed frequent access to their loved ones in the Tower, etc.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Family members are allowed to visit, or at least to keep regular contact, hell they are even allowed to send gifts to their children. Trouble is, a lot of parents despises their mage child, so there really is no family contact to speak of.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Family members are allowed to visit, or at least to keep regular contact, hell they are even allowed to send gifts to their children. Trouble is, a lot of parents despises their mage child, so there really is no family contact to speak of.

This isn't true of all Circles since Gaider addressed that relationships are frowned upon in some Circles, and we don't know how many others were as liberal as the Circle of Ferelden.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Relationships as in romantic relationships are frowned upon. And the Ferelden Circle was not liberal. Greagoir is in fact described as a grim and taciturn Knight-Commander, devoted to his duty.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Relationships as in romantic relationships are frowned upon. And the Ferelden Circle was not liberal. Greagoir is in fact described as a grim and taciturn Knight-Commander, devoted to his duty.

First, Gaider said relationships. He didn't specify it was only romantic relationships. Second, Knight-Commander Greagoir is willing to arrest the Warden if he discovers the use of blood magic rather than kill him outright despite Chantry law, and he's willing to delegate authority to First Enchanter Irving, so I'd contest the idea that Greagoir isn't liberal when we have Knight-Commander Meredith to contrast him with.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[HogarthHughes 3]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Relationships as in romantic relationships are frowned upon. And the Ferelden Circle was not liberal. Greagoir is in fact described as a grim and taciturn Knight-Commander, devoted to his duty.

First, Gaider said relationships. He didn't specify it was only romantic relationships. Second, Knight-Commander Greagoir is willing to arrest the Warden if he discovers the use of blood magic rather than kill him outright despite Chantry law, and he's willing to delegate authority to First Enchanter Irving, so I'd contest the idea that Greagoir isn't liberal when we have Knight-Commander Meredith to contrast him with.

As I recall, Greagoir was going to have the PC in the mage origin executed for helping Jowan, though perhaps that changes if you tell Irving about the plan?

[barryl89]

You think they won't, and you're entitled to your opinion, but not everyone shares that opinion.

Well I'd argue it is very nearly an irrefutable fact.

Apart from Tevinter, where do you think people will welcome the freedom mages? Considering they all worship a divine figure who fought to cast down their mage oppressors (Tevinter) and was subsequently put to death by an Archon. Take the real world case. The Jews have been discriminated against for centuries (possibly) because they put Jesus to death. Now Jews can't hurl fireballs, I think.

Note: I don't know my post-christianity history so well, so thats why I say possibly.

[Sherbet Lemon]

I think the Circle is okay for the most part, I just don't think the Templars should have unilateral control over the mages.  There should be a council of mages in each Circle that have the ability to override some of the Templar control.  The power should be shared. 

I think mages should be allowed to cultivate relationships and I think that family contact should be encouraged.  I still think mages need to go off to school to learn how to focus their powers.  I think the Harrowing should remain as is. 

[LobselVith8]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

As I recall, Greagoir was going to have the PC in the mage origin executed for helping Jowan, though perhaps that changes if you tell Irving about the plan?

I'm talking about the disabled scene where Wynne confronts the Warden for using blood magic in "A Broken Circle." The developers disabled it because it bugged the Landsmeet (and it still does if the Warden kills everyone instead of saying it was "Grey Warden magic"). You can find the scene on YT.

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You think they won't, and you're entitled to your opinion, but not everyone shares that opinion.

Well I'd argue it is very nearly an irrefutable fact.

And it's still your opinion nevertheless.

barryl89 wrote...

Apart from Tevinter, where do you think people will welcome the freedom mages?

You mean, besides the free mages in the kingdom of Rivain, the Chasind Wilders, the Avaar tribes, and the elven mages in the Dalish clans? King Alistair is harboring apostates in Ferelden. The Warden-Commander from the Circle of Magi is a free mage who is seen as a hero among the people, moreso if Amaranthine is spared during his time as the de facto Arl of Amaranthine.

How well such efforts will go (which seems to be happening in Ferelden with King Alistair) is entirely speculative since we lack any information to make a factual determination.

barryl89 wrote...

Considering they all worship a divine figure who fought to cast down their mage oppressors (Tevinter) and was subsequently put to death by an Archon.

And these same people are the ones who think the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden is blessed by the Maker, as Queen Anora addressed in the royal ceremony.

[Elhanan]

Make them into food franchises, or nightclubs; very faddish....

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Relationships as in romantic relationships are frowned upon. And the Ferelden Circle was not liberal. Greagoir is in fact described as a grim and taciturn Knight-Commander, devoted to his duty.

First, Gaider said relationships. He didn't specify it was only romantic relationships. Second, Knight-Commander Greagoir is willing to arrest the Warden if he discovers the use of blood magic rather than kill him outright despite Chantry law, and he's willing to delegate authority to First Enchanter Irving, so I'd contest the idea that Greagoir isn't liberal when we have Knight-Commander Meredith to contrast him with.

The discussion where he said that, was a discussion about wether mages were allowed to marry, and why they can't keep their children, and all that good stuff. He said they were allowed to have relationships, but it was frowned upon.

LobselVith8 wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Apart from Tevinter, where do you think people will welcome the freedom mages?

You mean, besides the free mages in the kingdom of Rivain, the Chasind Wilders, the Avaar tribes, and the elven mages in the Dalish clans? King Alistair is harboring apostates in Ferelden. The Warden-Commander from the Circle of Magi is a free mage who is seen as a hero among the people, moreso if Amaranthine is spared during his time as the de facto Arl of Amaranthine.

How well such efforts will go (which seems to be happening in Ferelden with King Alistair) is entirely speculative since we lack any information to make a factual determination.

Why would the Rivaini welcome apostates? They are not seers.
Why would the Chasind and Avvars welcome apostates? They are not shamans.
Why would the Dalish welcome apostates? They are not Keepers or Firsts.
Why would the Grey Wardens recruit all mages? It would only make thema  target, and compromise their neutrality.
Alistair will not welcome all apostates everywhere. Just harboring those few he did made him a target.
The first three won't harbor any apostates. Their own magical practices are mirred in tradition. If you aren't a seer, shaman or Keeper, they won't have anything to do with you.
The last two can't just harbor all apostates, as that will make them a target in a war they cannot hope to win, no matter how many mages they may get.
I'd even draw in the possible apostate circle in Orzammar. Even that won't welcome all apostates. Its mere existence has already compromised Orzammar. It is unlikely it will risk further "disagreements" with the Andrastians.

No. Mages are alone. The only place they are actually welcomed, is the Circle.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The discussion where he said that, was a discussion about wether mages were allowed to marry, and why they can't keep their children, and all that good stuff. He said they were allowed to have relationships, but it was frowned upon.

Gaider addressed relationships for the mages in the Circle, and the actual topic of discussion was the templars and their relationships.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the Rivaini welcome apostates? They are not seers.

I pointed out there are free mages in the kingdom of Rivain because not everyone shares the Andrastian view of mages driven forth by the Chantry of Andraste, and I don't think it's fair for people to make it seem that Tevinter is the only alternative to the Chantry controlled Circles where free mages exist.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the Chasind and Avvars welcome apostates? They are not shamans.

Again, I pointed out there are free mages in among the Chasind Wilders and the Avvar tribes, and we have no idea how they respond to illegal mages from outside their tribe.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the Dalish welcome apostates? They are not Keepers or Firsts.

Tell that to Aneirin the Healer and the elven Circle mage who provided Ariane's clan with the book on the Eluvians.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the Grey Wardens recruit all mages? It would only make thema  target, and compromise their neutrality.

I don't think all mages would want to be Grey Wardens, but we know the Hero of Ferelden can recruit more than one, even as a mage himself. There were multiple mages from the flashback scene in Warden's Keep.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Alistair will not welcome all apostates everywhere. Just harboring those few he did made him a target.

King Alistair is harboring apostates and the rest is speculation on your part since we have no information on whether he's welcomed apostates to Ferelden or not.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The first three won't harbor any apostates. Their own magical practices are mirred in tradition. If you aren't a seer, shaman or Keeper, they won't have anything to do with you.

Speculation. We have no idea how the Chasind, the Avvar, or the kingdom of Rivain respond to mages from outside their borders.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The last two can't just harbor all apostates, as that will make them a target in a war they cannot hope to win, no matter how many mages they may get.

More speculation. We have no idea what's going to happen or how they'll react. It's entirely up to the writers how they want the respective nations to react.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd even draw in the possible apostate circle in Orzammar. Even that won't welcome all apostates. Its mere existence has already compromised Orzammar. It is unlikely it will risk further "disagreements" with the Andrastians.

The Epilogue states that the Divine was contemplating an Exalted March because Orzammar was harboring apostates (unless the Hero of Ferelden asked for the Magi boon and then it's not formed).

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No. Mages are alone. The only place they are actually welcomed, is the Circle.

You're entitled to your opinion, certainly.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chantry has specific laws for specific crimes, including the Rite of Tranquility or imprisonment. The problem in Kirkwall was that the Templars ignored Chantry law because they could get away with it in the Free Marches.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And why exactly would any nationalized circle treat their mages better? What is it with peoples' idea that as soon as the mages are out of Chantry control, they will magically (poor choice of words ye) be treated better?

Pattern recognition.

[stobie]

Mandatory Mage School? (sigh - Hogwarts)

After you pass your Harrowing, or if you choose to do it, you're free. Maybe you can report back in at intervals, like a parole?

From Origins, I was under the impression that Harrowed mages have quite a bit of freedom. But I'd treat it more like a rite of passage, where you do something (Harrowing or whatever) that proves you're safe, can handle yourself, and then you're as free as anyone else. (which may have limits, in any case)

[IanPolaris]

Actually with an open mage revolt brewing and/or actually in existance and knowing the Chantry would back an outright Orlesian invasion and occupation of Feredan anyway (they did before and this is the problem with a religion like the Chantry getting too much in bed with one nation), it makes a lot of sense for Alistair to declare Fereldan a mage-haven (which he does whether the warden circle-boon is granted or not). The chantry and Orlais are going to be against him anyway, but with the mage problem, other nations are likely to sit this one out....and open apostates are probably the easiest and most effective way to beef Fereldan's Army bar none.

-Polaris