251 réponses à ce sujet

[ShrinkingFish]

So what is your alternative? Same old broken system? Perpetuate the cycle of abuse, death and war?

I mean we now know, for sure, that the Circle of Magi doesn't work. You saying we should go right back to the same old tried and failed method that hasn't worked in the past and just cross our fingers this time?

[Dave of Canada]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

I'd have no problems with the Circle if they weren't taking children away from their families to never see them again. Let the families communicate, visit, even. Perhaps even templar-supervised visits to their families every now and then.

Families are allowed to see their children again, Eamon for example went to visit Connor and Finn had stuff given to him by his parents once he passed his Harrowing.

Basically, I just ask that mages be treated humanely and with respect, rather than just shoving them in the Circle and making them live their lives in there.

They are allowed to leave if they are given permission, Wynne for example is allowed to leave and join the Court and Finn himself manages to leave with the Warden / Ariane. All they have to do is not screw up their chances of getting permission.

I absolutely believe that the restrictions placed on the mages have created numerous maleficar and blood mages that wouldn't have had they just been treated as if they have rights.

Tevinter has no such restrictions and they have those problems too, for example... Tevinter Magisters are allowed to kill children to entertain guests, they summon demons and use blood magic and sacrifice their slaves.

[ShrinkingFish]

I understand your need to put the question to others to come up with a system that is a viable alternative to the Circle of Magi.

But I put the question to you: How do you defend an institution that has so utterly failed in its mission that it has actually created much larger problems than those it was created to address?

[Dave of Canada]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Did you miss the epilogue or something?

Nope, I'm asking for a better alternative to the Circle of Magi. I'm not arguing about the current system's flaws, I'm arguing that there's no better alternative and I'm awaiting for one.

[ShrinkingFish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Families are allowed to see their children again, Eamon for example went to visit Connor and Finn had stuff given to him by his parents once he passed his Harrowing.

They are allowed to leave if they are given permission, Wynne for example is allowed to leave and join the Court and Finn himself manages to leave with the Warden / Ariane. All they have to do is not screw up their chances of getting permission.

Tevinter has no such restrictions and they have those problems too, for example... Tevinter Magisters are allowed to kill children to entertain guests, they summon demons and use blood magic and sacrifice their slaves.

These are all examples of a rather well functioning Circle where the abuse of mages at Templar hands is at a minimum. The Kirkwall example negates all these aspects and arguments.

In Kirkwall mages are locked up and never see their families again. That one noble family hadn't seen or heard from their child since he was four years old until the day he escaped and sought them out.

The mages of Kirkwall are locked in their cells for days or weeks at a time. Soletary confinement. Windowless, lightless cells. None are permitted to leave the Circle except for the First Enchanter himself and even he is kept on a short leash. And abuse of some sort is implied by the fact that the Templars "ask things" of the mages in addition to the mages unwillingness to speak of such matters and general fear and hatred of the Templars.

And you're purposefully exagerrating the problems of Tevinter.

[Dave of Canada]

Dark-sider77 wrote...

The Tiventer Imperium as long as your a magister but it kinda sucks otherwise...

Yeah, you covered it.

i guess you have the Dalish but they are tribal so their circumstances are totally different and cant be applied to more traditionally civilized cultures.

Even then, Dalish aren't immune to abominations and they have their own problems. Merrill is an example that they don't care for Blood Magic, the clans have to hunt their Keepers who turn into Abominations and such.

We dont really know anything about the elves of Arlathan so i don't think they count, they may have been just as bad as Ancient Tiventer for all we know,

Yeah, not enough info.

and Merrill says that they may have all been mages which would also be completely different from all of thedas civilization as of Dragon Age.

That's speculation on her part, though.

Then there are the qunari but i doubt the people who dislike the chantry's treatment of mages would prefer the qunari treatment of mages

At least you'd look cool.

[ShrinkingFish]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Nope, I'm asking for a better alternative to the Circle of Magi. I'm not arguing about the current system's flaws, I'm arguing that there's no better alternative and I'm awaiting for one.

If there is no better alternative then there is nothing that can be done at all. As such, this is a pointless discussion.

Enjoy the war. I know I will

[Dave of Canada]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

But I put the question to you: How do you defend an institution that has so utterly failed in its mission that it has actually created much larger problems than those it was created to address?

Because it worked for the past thousand years and only stopped working because a lot of mages decided to rebel at the same time, one does not abandon a system when it goes bad. We've had rebellions and wars over government systems or treatments of people but they still remain today, it doesn't mean that after the war we're supposed to throw it all away.

[Ingu]

You can always adopt the modern system of freedom and policing. = = Templars already seem to act like policemen imo...

[shaneho78]

Killing every demon in the fade once and for all

[ShrinkingFish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Then there are the qunari but i doubt the people who dislike the chantry's treatment of mages would prefer the qunari treatment of mages

At least you'd look cool.

I actually approve of the Qunari system and I think most people who disagree with it do so because they do not truly understand it.

So this is me, eliminating your doubt. I dislike the Chantry's treatment of mages and think the Qunari offer an excellent and functional alternative.

[Aradace]

Esbatty wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Magical hookers sounds kind of nice... Isabela's line about the electricity got me a little curious.

Apostate prostitutes? Aprostitutes!

That would be "Apostitutes"...no "R"

Modifié par Aradace, 26 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

But I put the question to you: How do you defend an institution that has so utterly failed in its mission that it has actually created much larger problems than those it was created to address?

Because it worked for the past thousand years and only stopped working because a lot of mages decided to rebel at the same time, one does not abandon a system when it goes bad. We've had rebellions and wars over government systems or treatments of people but they still remain today, it doesn't mean that after the war we're supposed to throw it all away.

Before the Chantry there was a system of mage control that worked for thousands of years before it. But a bunch of people decided to rebel at the same time. Afterwards the old system was thrown away due to its ineffectiveness. Now this system has run its course. Time for a new plan.

And yes. When a system proves that it does not work as intended... one abandons it. That is the only sensible thing to do. To continue useing a broken system and expecting it to work is stupidity at its finest.

[Ingu]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

But I put the question to you: How do you defend an institution that has so utterly failed in its mission that it has actually created much larger problems than those it was created to address?

Because it worked for the past thousand years and only stopped working because a lot of mages decided to rebel at the same time, one does not abandon a system when it goes bad. We've had rebellions and wars over government systems or treatments of people but they still remain today, it doesn't mean that after the war we're supposed to throw it all away.

We evolve the system and make changes. The fundamental ideals of the cirlce aren't wrong - educating mages, some oversight. It's just not fair to think it's fair to imprision them and turn them essentially into slaves. You'd be better off withsomething like hogwarts and the ministry of magic than what the circle has become.

Modern laws are changed as societal values change, millenias of monarchy rule were overthrown and capitalism became the new horray, things are supposed to change, you can't yay or boo something unless you see the true extent of its consequences. In 50 years it may look like the circle of magi was the best idea ever, but in 500 it may seem archaic and stupid.

[ShrinkingFish]

Aradace wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Magical hookers sounds kind of nice... Isabela's line about the electricity got me a little curious.

Apostate prostitutes? Aprostitutes!

That would be "Apostitutes"...no "R"

There is no "r" in prostitute?

[Esbatty]

Aradace wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Magical hookers sounds kind of nice... Isabela's line about the electricity got me a little curious.

Apostate prostitutes? Aprostitutes!

That would be "Apostitutes"...no "R"

I googled the damn quote and I guessed it was right. So I thought it sounded wrong but I only took Isabela one time on that quest.

[Nodscouter]

I'd say execute them all at birth or let them have their freedom. The Circle is idiotic for so many reasons.

[Dave of Canada]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

In Kirkwall mages are locked up and never see their families again. That one noble family hadn't seen or heard from their child since he was four years old until the day he escaped and sought them out.

Bethany, when taken to the Circle, remains in contact with Leandra and Hawke. She wasn't locked up and never seen again.

The mages of Kirkwall are locked in their cells for days or weeks at a time. Soletary confinement. Windowless, lightless cells.

Where does it say this? I thought they were allowed to roam the entire Gallows during the day.

None are permitted to leave the Circle except for the First Enchanter himself

Given.

and even he is kept on a short leash.

Not short enough if he can appear in public and give speeches inciting open rebellion, keep in contact with Quentin and prevent the Templar from searching for blood mages in the Circle by not authorizing it.

And abuse of some sort is implied by the fact that the Templars "ask things" of the mages

As would anybody else, Templar are human. Some good, some are cruel. Ferelden's circle, which you've said is a good Circle, had it's corrupt Templars themselves.

in addition to the mages unwillingness to speak of such matters and general fear and hatred of the Templars.

I don't expect them to speak in reverence.

And you're purposefully exagerrating the problems of Tevinter.

So when Fenris says that Denarius killed a boy at a party to entertain his guests, when the magisters we've seen are using blood magic and summoning demons and slaying their slaves in order to strengthen themselves, all the while being nobility and oppressing groups of "normal" people in their homeland, is exaggerating?

Nodscouter wrote...

I'd say execute them all at birth

On a fundamental level, I sort of agree with this suggestion. Though commiting genocide against a people isn't going to help anybody.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 mars 2011 - 09:10 .

[Dave of Canada]

Last post of the night, 5AM.

Ingu wrote...

It's just not fair to think it's fair to imprision them and turn them essentially into slaves.

Aside from learning magic, they are free to do what they want within the confines of the Circle. Some may become merchants, scholars and such. There's an entire fraternity dedicated to making money, slaves wouldn't really be in a position to have that much influence.

You'd be better off withsomething like hogwarts and the ministry of magic than what the circle has become.

Mentioned my (brief) thoughts of Hogwarts on page 1.

Don't know what the ministry of magic is.

Modern laws are changed as societal values change, millenias of monarchy rule were overthrown and capitalism became the new horray, things are supposed to change,

Thus the existance of this thread, Meredith herself asks Orsino what he'd have her do and he can't really say anything. I'd like to hear of a system that's superior to the Circle.

In 50 years it may look like the circle of magi was the best idea ever, but in 500 it may seem archaic and stupid.

Only if something better takes it's place, which I'm just not seeing.

[Ingu]

...I just think I should point out that the entire problem with Tevinter is that it's RULED BY MAGES and mages ONLY. Their entire social structure is possibly the opposite of what we have with the Chantry and the Templars. and NEITHER is a good one.

I don't think anyone thinks it's a good idea to have any sort of extremist rule over a country. It'd be much healthier if ti was mixed...

[Augustei]

That spell in harry potter where you make an agreement and if you break it you die.. Make all those born of magic swear never to use maleficarum or use their magic as an deliberate advantage to gain political power.. So if they break the promise they die.. That would be the best alternative

[Ingu]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Only if something better takes it's place, which I'm just not seeing.

Well that seems to be the whole problem. This entire thread is essentially. Circle is often bad vs. circle is not entirely bad - arguing different truths on completely different wavelengths.

...and not matter what you say I don't think not being allowed to leave a building for my entire life unless I get special permission from the mysterious powers that be is ever going to be fair. Sure I can survive and make the most of it, but... a life which isn't fair just... isn't fair.

I still say get them to look after themselves - hogwarts+ministry of magic or something...

[ShrinkingFish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Stuff.

I'm not going to get into a citation debate. I think Alain and a few other mages attested to the conditions of the Gallows. And I don't remember any of them ever saying they got to wander around the grounds. And it is clear that there are some  inconsitencies within the Circle in terms of outside contact as Bethany writes letters while others vanish entirely. Might just be a plot hole for all we know.

And I remember much of what Fenris said about Tevinter and his opinion and claims have merit, though they can hardly be trusted entirely. And remember... blood magic is not inherently evil. It is just open to abuse. Just like every other type of power. But discussions of Tevinter and the Circle's there is off point and I'm not going to perpetuate that discussion any further. We both know that Tevinter is not a viable alternative to the Circle of Magi so why bother arguing the particulars.

Point is, regardless of all extrenuating facts, that the Circle of Kirkwall as a monument to the abuse of the Circle. Both sides pushing eachother into deeper and deeper extremes until no peaceful solution could be reached and the entire thing erupted in blood.

The example of Kirkwall makes it clear that this system is far too open to abuse to function as intended. As such it is not a viable solution to the mage problem and other methods must be explored. If no solution can be found then that is another problem entirely and the world is simply doomed to the self perpetuating cycles of abuse and war.

[Ingu]

XxDeonxX wrote...

That spell in harry potter where you make an agreement and if you break it you die.. Make all those born of magic swear never to use maleficarum or use their magic as an deliberate advantage to gain political power.. So if they break the promise they die.. That would be the best alternative

Hey hey hey! What happened to free will and all that?!

[ShrinkingFish]

But if you want a possible alternative:

A Circle of Magi not ruled over nor controlled by either the Mages or the Chantry, but a neutral third party of non-religious, non-invested protectors that operate as much as a shield to the mages themselves as to the public from the mages.

This group would also need to be overseen by a conglomerate of elected officials from among the mages themselves as well as their protectors who's job is to essentially police the guardians of the Circles as fervently as the guardians police the Circle's themselves.

Edit: Or the Qunari method. I actually think the Qunari have the best solution.

Again, most of the people who disaprove of the Qunari's policies on mages simply do not understand them nor the culture itself.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 26 mars 2011 - 09:25 .