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Name me a better alternative to the Circle of Magi.


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#51
Augustei

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Ingu wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

That spell in harry potter where you make an agreement and if you break it you die.. Make all those born of magic swear never to use maleficarum or use their magic as an deliberate advantage to gain political power.. So if they break the promise they die.. That would be the best alternative


Hey hey hey! What happened to free will and all that?! Image IPB


They can still join politics and all that.. just not use their magic to give them an advantage in it. They can still use their magic freely as long as it isn't Maleficarum (Which has been shown to have bad results and a cause of evil, harm and self harm in some cases. They have plenty of free will. as much as everybody else really =D

#52
Ingu

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XxDeonxX wrote...

Ingu wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

That spell in harry potter where you make an agreement and if you break it you die.. Make all those born of magic swear never to use maleficarum or use their magic as an deliberate advantage to gain political power.. So if they break the promise they die.. That would be the best alternative


Hey hey hey! What happened to free will and all that?! Image IPB


They can still join politics and all that.. just not use their magic to give them an advantage in it. They can still use their magic freely as long as it isn't Maleficarum (Which has been shown to have bad results and a cause of evil, harm and self harm in some cases. They have plenty of free will. as much as everybody else really =D



That's not cool, it's like forbidding people of African descent to compete in races because they have a genetic advantage! D= What's the point of having all those awesome mage powers then? Image IPB

#53
ShrinkingFish

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Ingu wrote...

That's not cool, it's like forbidding people of African descent to compete in races because they have a genetic advantage! D= What's the point of having all those awesome mage powers then? Image IPB


Racism.

#54
Gamer Ftw

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Easy.
All they need is an academy for mages to teach them control.
But they can still go anywhere see thier families.
They could have the guard watch them they don't need to be locked up.

#55
Ingu

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ShrinkingFish wrote...

Racism.


So once mage freedom is achieved we're going to be faced with mage-ism?

...that makes a scary amount of sense.

#56
Lianaar

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A good thread, thank you for starting it.

First of all, there is the question: 
do we want mages to roam free? Without any check and break?
They deserve freedom, because:
- they are humans (elves), with feelings, emotions, various skills and personalities
- magic is just a tool, like any other tools, you have, be it poison, weapon, retorics, gunpowder, healing potion
- oppression almost always leads to people fighting back, dissatisfaction makes people act, and do desparate measures
- a happy peaple growing up in healthy family surroundings, socialised to live within non-mages, and non-mages being socialised to live with mages are less prone to hatered and drastic measures.

There should be breaks because: 

- they can not be asked to not use their "weapons", while you can tell a fighter: put down that sword and go into this pub without it, what can you do to a mage? drink this numbin potion, that prevents you from moving? You
can not rip the weapon they possess from them for durations. There is
no armband of limit or anti-magic field. It is not something you can
switch off and on, depending on need. It is always there.
- they are more prone to be possessed by demons/spirits (though we have seen that non-mages can be possessed too)
- demons are very very dangerous, not because they are strong, but because they know you. They do not make demands, they smartly feed on your own feelings. They do not evoke, they merely strengthen. Step by step they lure you into a direction they want you in. You will not even notice, when you step over the red line. Looking back, you might go: by the maker/creators/dread wolf/water, I never thought I will walk this far! But you don't look back, because what you see in front of you is so much better then what you leave behind. People becoming abominations are not stupid, thoughtless, evil, selfish people necessarily. But they are human. They have goals, desires, needs. Many of them are quite noble.
- it is dangerous (it can be random, unexpected). Just like I wouldn't let my child handle the fireplace alone, without supervision, I would hate my kids to play with Sandal (considering he occasionally blows up the place he is at), I do not let an unexperienced person peel a potato with a knife alone... there needs to be limits, supervision, study, education how to handle dangerous matters.

Let me pull a modern life example: prisons and asylums. Prisons and asylums close people away from the society who have the ability and power to endanger members of the society. If the prison inhabitants revolt, do you want them to set loose? No. Not even if the revolt is justified, because the (human) guards and jailors were abusive. We have often seen that, psychological studies show that people put in position of power, do things they never thought possible. Most of the experiements in this field had to be stopped because people involved became so radical. Do we want people let loose from the asylumns? It is not their fault, they are how they are, often they have not hurt anyone at all.

What is a likely scenario if mages live free?
After the initial relaxation of the mages, and the general fear that runs through the population, there will be abuses. People will kill mages for any unexplanable events (there was no rain for two weeks, I am sure the mage caused it). And unchecked mages will set damons lose on people, haunt their dreams. The ones having no moral boundaries will 'level up' fast , have money, bribe people, gain supporters, evoke fear, gain power. If we have a group of candidates for the power, the one with the best tools will gain it. And in most cases that's a mage without moral, self-imposed limits. It will be kind of like lawyers are seen. Most people hate lawyers, because they often get into contact with the powerful unethical ones. But it'll label -all- lawyers, not only the bad ones.

Is there an alternative to the circle?
I couldn't find one. Not if we define the cirlce as: a place where mages are supervised to ensure that the dangers of magic itself are limited to a minimum.

What is good in the circle?
- education, the mages need to learn how to deal with the tools they can not part with. Just lik a child needs to learn how to walk, speak, write, eat...you can not push a sword into the hand of a 4 year old and go: good luck, see you whenever. It is dangerous both to the kid and his surroundings. None ever considers doing it. Magic is the same, just not by choice, the maker or whoever created people of Thedas put magic in the hands of children and let them lose. Without any guidance and help. How can a non-mage teach a mage to use the tool? A non mage has neither the capacity, nor the chance to understand magic, because we likely lack the sensory organs for it (otherwise it would not only be mages who are possessed by demons). If you put those people in a surrounding that is full with people who can understand what they go through, who can teach them how to live with magic, and make magic a gift instead of a curse, then we win. Segragation is not always bad. At times it serves the needs of people who are segrageted, think on schools which have smaller classes, and less fast spaced lessons, or other schools that are more focused on sports in order to handle hyperactive children. Every sort of need can be supplied for in the proper form and institute. Even today, specially gifted and talented kids are likely to end up in schools for specially gifted and talented kids, no?
- mechanism to handle mages that lost their limits

What is bad in the circle?
It is an institute run by humans. And humans are faulty. Humans often seek power over the others (maybe a hint from old time animalistic rivalry and dominance fighst?) Just like mages will go stray, their supervisors will go stray. No ideology, however noble and fine, will be able to withstand human greed and manipulation. All fine ideologies failed there. So as long as we can not rip ourselves from everything that makes us human, whatever we come up with, will have flaws.

What could be done to improve the circles?
- control for the templars. This would mean a right for the Circle to appeal eg to the Chantry or the ruler of the place, to check on the templars. Just like the right of the templars to call on an outside place to check on the mages. Probably I would rip the right of annulment from the Templars, and make it a right of initiating annulment with an upper forum, mostly outside forum. One that consists of mages and non-mages both.  (yay, for administration)
- family surroundings: allowing families that wish for it, to live near the circles. That would make circles have a town evolved around them, where mages and non-mages would live in a cooperation, socialising both mages and non-mages how to handle each other.
- field trips? part of the education would be teaching mages how to handle non-mages that fear them. To make them see, that their uniqueness will always evoke fear on those who don't possess such power.
- education for those passing the harrowing in blood magic and about demons, so they understand the dangers and are not so easy pray for the demons
- general permits to leave and live outside of the circle for those who "finished school", with the promise of returning yearly for a "demon-scan" (go to the fade and check how he is there, demons appear in the fade after all).

Even Trevinter mages have their own "templars'", just with less power. Even the Keepers have their own "templars" (the whole clan) who kill an abomination Keeper. And magic knowing people at the Dalish are not walking free, they are linked to the Keeper.

It would be nice to have some tools that would allow people to see if someone is an abomination or under the influence of a demon or not (just like it would be nice to be able to tell if someone has the taint or not). It would be nice to have a tool, that temporarily prevents mages to be able to use their abilities (anti-magic fields, double void bracelets, demon repellants). But there are no such things in Thedas.

Are all mages corrupt? No, not more then any other human. They just have more power to do harm if they go astray.

#57
Never

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I don't think there is a better solution. They could improve the Circle a bit, but I don't think any of the other options make much sense.

#58
PlumPaul93

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freedom obviously nothing bad would happen because the mages wouldn't cause any harm to the people in the DA society.

#59
Lianaar

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Giving power for one group over the other leads to abuses. Mages have this power by birth, it was not given to them by people, but they still have power over the others. It leads to abuse, because of the faults people have.

#60
AlexXIV

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I guess the better alternative to 'the' Circle of Magi is 'a' Circle of Magi. You have them in almost every fantasy story in which magic exists. And as far as I can see, while demons really are a threat to mages in DA, it's the templars and the way the circles are run that produce the most bloodmages and apostates. I don't think it would be a good idea to treat mages like non-mages. That's kind of bound to bite you in the butt at some point. But the templars so far only prove that they are good at fighting mages, not at protecting them. Or protecting others from them. So ... screw them ... finding a better alternative shouldn't be hard. In essence a first enchanter has the same chance of being corrupt as a knight commander (which we even see in DA2). Just that Orsino was being desperate because of Meredith. So she is the real source of all of it. The templars simply became more of a problem than a solution.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 mars 2011 - 10:46 .


#61
soignee

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PlumPaul82393 wrote...

freedom obviously nothing bad would happen because the mages wouldn't cause any harm to the people in the DA society.


What if they become posessed? Apparently frequent according to DA2...

#62
AlexXIV

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soignee wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

freedom obviously nothing bad would happen because the mages wouldn't cause any harm to the people in the DA society.


What if they become posessed? Apparently frequent according to DA2...

What if normal people get possessed. Just for the theory sake. Let's say all mages get killed. Do you think the demons disappear or give up on trying to possess people?

#63
Lianaar

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AlexXIV wrote...
What if normal people get possessed. Just for the theory sake. Let's say all mages get killed. Do you think the demons disappear or give up on trying to possess people?


It is not that easy. Demons pray on mages, because mages are generally the one who they can possess. Kirkwall is about the only exception we saw, and the most frightening impilcation of the game. In Kirkwall non-mages could be possessed too (though not without magical help.) Kirkwall is however special due to many factors (there are quite a few threads discussing this topic.)

Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages.

#64
Wulfram

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The current system is such an utter failure that I don't think proposing the abolition of it is unreasonable. Both the Kirkwall and Ferelden circles appear to have if anything encouraged the spread of blood magic, by creating a concentration of angry and desperate mages looking for anything that might escape.

#65
AlexXIV

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Lianaar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
What if normal people get possessed. Just for the theory sake. Let's say all mages get killed. Do you think the demons disappear or give up on trying to possess people?


It is not that easy. Demons pray on mages, because mages are generally the one who they can possess. Kirkwall is about the only exception we saw, and the most frightening impilcation of the game. In Kirkwall non-mages could be possessed too (though not without magical help.) Kirkwall is however special due to many factors (there are quite a few threads discussing this topic.)

Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages.

No, that's basically twisting reality. I saw a possessed cat. I saw possessed templars and other people in DA:O and DA:A as well. Mages may be easiest to be possessed, but that doesn't change that demons, if they fail to get hold on a mage, will try to find the next best victim. Removing the mages does not remove the Fade or demons from the world. As far as I know anyway.

#66
ShrinkingFish

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Lianaar wrote...

Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages.


That is actually not at all true. Demons can possess anyone and anything living or dead. Trees, cats, dogs, people, corpses, etc.

Mages simply act like a becon to demons due to the mages dual connection to reality and the Fade. They are not more easliy possessed. They are just easier for demons to find.

#67
Paraxial

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soignee wrote...

What if they become posessed? Apparently frequent according to DA2...


Whenever a mage is cornered or not taught well enough, they seem to find their way to Blood Magic. Happens quite a bit, you're right. This is why I enjoyed the whole story of DA2 so much. The Templars are painted in such an evil way, people are afraid of them and your party members demonize them at nearly every turn. Templars are necessary, and they do a dirty and dangerous job. Like any large organization there will be bad seeds, but at it's core the Templars are an order of men and women dedicated to protecting mages from themselves, and if the worst comes to pass protecting everyone else from the mages. Cullen is a perfect example of a "good" Templar. Especially if you sided with the Templars and he makes his distaste for executing the mages that surrender very clear. The order isn't perfect, but nothing is.

OT though, I believe that the Circle is necessary. The rules could be a bit more lax I suppose, allowing mages of a certain age and/or level of training be certified by a panel or group of administrators and allowed to return home. I don't believe that keeping mages locked in a tower for all their lives is just or smart, it will only lead to tension and misunderstandings. If the mage is cleared and allowed to leave the circle and return home, Templars would still routinely check up on the mage, making sure he/she is on the straight and narrow still.

#68
earl of the north

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AlexXIV wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
What if normal people get possessed. Just for the theory sake. Let's say all mages get killed. Do you think the demons disappear or give up on trying to possess people?


It is not that easy. Demons pray on mages, because mages are generally the one who they can possess. Kirkwall is about the only exception we saw, and the most frightening impilcation of the game. In Kirkwall non-mages could be possessed too (though not without magical help.) Kirkwall is however special due to many factors (there are quite a few threads discussing this topic.)

Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages.

No, that's basically twisting reality. I saw a possessed cat. I saw possessed templars and other people in DA:O and DA:A as well. Mages may be easiest to be possessed, but that doesn't change that demons, if they fail to get hold on a mage, will try to find the next best victim. Removing the mages does not remove the Fade or demons from the world. As far as I know anyway.


Possession is possible for anyone/anything in areas where the veil to the fade is weak., however.....




I saw a possessed cat

Due to a mage living outside of the circle.




I saw possessed templars

Due to a mage rebellion in DA:O and due to Blood Mages in DA2

You apparently need Mage involvement to have demonic possession, unless you're wandering around an area which most people will avoid like the plague like Sundermount.

Modifié par earl of the north, 26 mars 2011 - 11:13 .


#69
Lianaar

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earl of the north wrote...
You apparently need Mage involvement to have demonic possession, unless you're wandering around an area which most people will avoid like the plague like Sundermount.


That was my reading of lore too, though if I can get a different clarification I am happy to accept that too.

#70
Lord Gremlin

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Ask Qunari. Once everyone accepts the Qun there will be piece and cookies. And those who disagree will be executed.
Or, maybe Tevinter Imperium is the way to go. I honestly prefer Imperium - that's the best solution. If any mage goes ape****, other magisters will put him down. And if he's more powerful with them - then he's just better and deserves all the cake, I mean power.

#71
mousestalker

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Three words: The Rectangle of Wizards.

#72
SkittlesKat96

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Well I actually think the Circle of Magi is good, but I think there needs to be compromise, I think mages should have just a little more freedom than they have. Oppression causes blood magic and trouble just as much as letting mages run wild, I think all the stuff that happened in Kirkwall is an example of that, sure there might be the odd serial killer mage that will go crazy but with compromise hopefully they can still be stopped by the templars.

I reckon people like Anders and Morrigan are wrong in thinking the circle is completely bad.
EDIT:

Tl;DR: Circle is good. Templar oppression is bad. Compromise needed, not all mages are bad etc.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 26 mars 2011 - 11:41 .


#73
InvaderErl

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The Circle system in and of itself is not a bad idea, there just needs to be some changes. Mages need to be given some more personal freedoms with the Knight Commander having less autocratic power in times of emergency. The harrowing needs to really be rethought and the requirements for tranquility need to less ambiguous with a greater degree of evidence required.

The main issue is that the Templars are allowed too much freedom in how they manage their Circles, they need to be held to a standard, an internal affairs branch for Templars might very well be a good idea, supposedly the Seekers are supposed to do this but they seem to be more or less useless.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 26 mars 2011 - 12:16 .


#74
TcheQ

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Department of Silly Hats

#75
Tamahome560

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Lianaar wrote...

What could be done to improve the circles?
- control for the templars. This would mean a right for the Circle to appeal eg to the Chantry or the ruler of the place, to check on the templars. Just like the right of the templars to call on an outside place to check on the mages. Probably I would rip the right of annulment from the Templars, and make it a right of initiating annulment with an upper forum, mostly outside forum. One that consists of mages and non-mages both.  (yay, for administration)
- family surroundings: allowing families that wish for it, to live near the circles. That would make circles have a town evolved around them, where mages and non-mages would live in a cooperation, socialising both mages and non-mages how to handle each other.
- field trips? part of the education would be teaching mages how to handle non-mages that fear them. To make them see, that their uniqueness will always evoke fear on those who don't possess such power.
- education for those passing the harrowing in blood magic and about demons, so they understand the dangers and are not so easy pray for the demons
- general permits to leave and live outside of the circle for those who "finished school", with the promise of returning yearly for a "demon-scan" (go to the fade and check how he is there, demons appear in the fade after all).


I agree with that. There is no real alternative solution to the Circle that we could possibly come up with yet but the Circle itself as an idea is not bad. It is only how it is executed is what creates problems. Like Thrask said Templars and Mages need to work together not against each other but because the Chantry teaches that Magic is a curse and a sin things will not change. The Chantry needs to stop spewing bullsh*it and evolve past its limitations. In this way Anders was right while I don't agree with him killing innocents I see what he is trying to accomplish. For anything to change the Chantry must be the first thing that changes. When they accept that Magic is not a curse but a gift that needs to be appreciated and that Mages are like any other human being and that they deserve as much or hell even more respect and care than any other human. Only then the Templars will be able to change from being Prison Warden's to Protectors of Mages.

Also what you said about Circles having towns around them is great idea. Allowing families to live a relatively normal life together within the Circle town with the Circle itself being more akin to a Magic school. Mages being able to utilize their gifts to help common folk in their lives and work, having normal jobs and being able to socialize like normal people alongside normal people. Being able to start families without disapproval from the Circle and the Chantry and their children taken away. Also for those Mages who wish to see the world they could transfer to another Circle town anywhere in Thedas. The town could be governed by a Council consisting of a Revered Mother, Knight Commander, First Enchanter and a representative of the common folk. But people would have to see Mages as gifted people rather than cursed ones for this to work. The Chantry has to change its view so that people can change theirs.

Of course there would be people who are just power hungry or want to break away but there is no solution for that. The Templars would be there exactly for this reason. To protect the society from those who want to harm it. With almost no oppression from the Chantry or the Templars I would think that the number of those who still want to break away would drop drastically.