The Tranquil Solution.
There, I said it.
Name me a better alternative to the Circle of Magi.
Débuté par
Dave of Canada
, mars 26 2011 07:41
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#77
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 12:27
upsettingshorts
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I'd keep the Circle basically as it is but make residence within it nonpermanent. I'd still have the young mages forced to go (or they could go willingly, but theyd need to go). Once they are adults and have learned to use their magic responsibly they could leave and re-enter society.
They'd have to check in with the local Circle - allowing them to move as long as they notified both their current and future Circles - regularly, like parole.
Templars would still keep most of their duties. Finding and bringing young untrained mages to the Circle, tracking down and dealing with maleficarum. Apostates or those who simply missed a checkin would be forced back, but only to make their check-in and perhaps pay a fine, or stay for some punitive duration.
Actually scratch that stay part. Just forced to check-in. The Circle should do its best not to be thought of as a prison, even for cases in which temporary punitive imprisonment might be justified.
I don't think it's an ideal contemporary liberal humanist solution by any means, but I'm trying to work within the lore given.
They'd have to check in with the local Circle - allowing them to move as long as they notified both their current and future Circles - regularly, like parole.
Templars would still keep most of their duties. Finding and bringing young untrained mages to the Circle, tracking down and dealing with maleficarum. Apostates or those who simply missed a checkin would be forced back, but only to make their check-in and perhaps pay a fine,
Actually scratch that stay part. Just forced to check-in. The Circle should do its best not to be thought of as a prison, even for cases in which temporary punitive imprisonment might be justified.
I don't think it's an ideal contemporary liberal humanist solution by any means, but I'm trying to work within the lore given.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 mars 2011 - 12:32 .
#78
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 12:30
Wereparrot
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I don't think the Circle system works. I have said this before, but I think the Circle/Templar combination only serves to provoke hostility towards the Chantry and Templars and because of this it leads otherwise respectable mages to blood magic, and it encourages fear of magic among the general populace of Thedas and in fact weakens the mages' resistance to demons; the mages, being paranoid, are in a weakened state mentally to fight demons. I don't think it is a coincidence that the two mages with the strongest will in the DA universe are apostates, namely Morrigan and Bethany.
I think that all mages should be freed, and brought under the jurisdiction of the state rather than the Chantry. Mages would be raised to prominent positions within the judicial system, enabling a system whereby mages who do succumb to demons and blood magic could be hunted effectively and brought to justice like any other criminal.
I think that all mages should be freed, and brought under the jurisdiction of the state rather than the Chantry. Mages would be raised to prominent positions within the judicial system, enabling a system whereby mages who do succumb to demons and blood magic could be hunted effectively and brought to justice like any other criminal.
#79
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 12:33
Mykel54
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The mages in the circles need to be more in contact with the outside world (like going out on weekends to their families, always under templar watch), and the tower need to be seen less as a prison and more as a school. Once a mage passes the harrowing and he/she is proven to be trusted, he/she should get some kind of official permit that allow him/her to travel outside the tower if he/she pleases. If the mage does something then the templars can track him/her down by the phylacteries. This would make unexperienced and potentially dangerous mages incapable of causing havoc in the population, while good mages that are experienced and have showed their worth are rewarded with freedom to move around. There should also be special posts in the kingdom only available to mages, like healers and in the army, available for those that leave the tower.
#80
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 12:35
Herr Uhl
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AlexXIV wrote...
What if normal people get possessed. Just for the theory sake. Let's say all mages get killed. Do you think the demons disappear or give up on trying to possess people?
So we should kill all mages and thus abominations will start to sprout from normal people? Novel idea.
The thing is though, there are mages, and demons possessing normal people is exceedingly rare.
#82
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 12:41
TobiTobsen
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Herr Uhl wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
What if normal people get possessed. Just for the theory sake. Let's say all mages get killed. Do you think the demons disappear or give up on trying to possess people?
So we should kill all mages and thus abominations will start to sprout from normal people? Novel idea.
The thing is though, there are mages, and demons possessing normal people is exceedingly rare.
And normal people possessed by demons can't blow stuff up with their mind.
#83
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 12:43
Lianaar
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How about a permit system. All mages need to be administered and announced, and mages must have a proof of this. Like a licence where they need to prove various things
- prove that an authorised teacher is handling their education (either private, or an institute, or another acknowledged state)
- regular proof that mage is free of demons
Anyone not having this proof needs to be recited before the law and punished accordingly.
(how to solve the visible proof still leaves a lot of room for abuse, since papers are out of question, tattoos- not enough room on the person, items, can be lost, stolen, forged)
mage related crimes:
- failure to report abominations (yep, it would be a crime)
- failure to provide schooling for your mage child (it would be the parent's obligation, though there would be state supported institutes for magic).
- naturally all crimes you can commit without magic (like putting houses on fire etc)
- mental domination of others (how to prove it?)
I am not sure Thedas is developed enough for something like this.
- prove that an authorised teacher is handling their education (either private, or an institute, or another acknowledged state)
- regular proof that mage is free of demons
Anyone not having this proof needs to be recited before the law and punished accordingly.
(how to solve the visible proof still leaves a lot of room for abuse, since papers are out of question, tattoos- not enough room on the person, items, can be lost, stolen, forged)
mage related crimes:
- failure to report abominations (yep, it would be a crime)
- failure to provide schooling for your mage child (it would be the parent's obligation, though there would be state supported institutes for magic).
- naturally all crimes you can commit without magic (like putting houses on fire etc)
- mental domination of others (how to prove it?)
I am not sure Thedas is developed enough for something like this.
#84
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 12:47
earl of the north
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Smaller circles?
Having more smaller circles rather than a large single circle of magi per country/city state might help, it would reduce the number of mages who had to be guarded by the Templars (per circle) and allow the Mages to be more mobile even if this was only moving between different circles rather than living their entire lives within the confines of a single circle.
Lets say a maxium of 10 mages and up to 30 apprentices per circle (+ tranquils), much easier to guard and to spot signs of corruption for the guards charged with watching them.....it would also prevent a meredith like figure emerging since she wouldn't have hundreds of Templars to command.
The hardline Templars could be shifted into a reformed Inquisition, who would be the illegal mage/abomination hunting force which you still need and are always going to be anti-mage (from their experiences if nothing else).
The Seekers could oversee the Templars, Inquisition and Mages to ensure no group is acting incorrectly and you could have circles actually doing something constructive, specialising in healing, research, enchanting, schools etc.
Of course this assumes the Chantry regaining control of the mages.
Having more smaller circles rather than a large single circle of magi per country/city state might help, it would reduce the number of mages who had to be guarded by the Templars (per circle) and allow the Mages to be more mobile even if this was only moving between different circles rather than living their entire lives within the confines of a single circle.
Lets say a maxium of 10 mages and up to 30 apprentices per circle (+ tranquils), much easier to guard and to spot signs of corruption for the guards charged with watching them.....it would also prevent a meredith like figure emerging since she wouldn't have hundreds of Templars to command.
The hardline Templars could be shifted into a reformed Inquisition, who would be the illegal mage/abomination hunting force which you still need and are always going to be anti-mage (from their experiences if nothing else).
The Seekers could oversee the Templars, Inquisition and Mages to ensure no group is acting incorrectly and you could have circles actually doing something constructive, specialising in healing, research, enchanting, schools etc.
Of course this assumes the Chantry regaining control of the mages.
Modifié par earl of the north, 26 mars 2011 - 12:49 .
#85
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 12:48
LobselVith8
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Dave of Canada wrote...
I keep hearing on the forums about Mage freedom and how mages deserve to be treated like everybody else, now let's see what you've got. Name me a better alternative to the Circle of Magi, I've heard quite a few arguments in other threads and I'd like to see what a more condensed topic can create.
Would you prefer if people advocated the continued enslavement and oppression of the mages? Is an oppressive system a better alternative when we clearly see how it lead to a continential revolution by the mages? The Circles of Magi already freed themselves from Chantry control, so it looks like the mages are already forming what they think is preferable to servitude.
Dave of Canada wrote...
The "sensible people" will realize there is no actual clear cut solution.
If Mages win:
Mages will have to create a Circle system where mages are taken away from their families for training, similar to the way it functions in Tevinter Imperium, or else we'd have abominations running rampant. This isn't very much different than what the Circle did before the Templar involved themselves, the only difference is that mages are ruling over the Circle instead.
Why would the mages have to follow that particular path? The Dalish don't follow it. Neither do the Chasind, the people of Haven, or the people in the nation of Rivain who refused to be parted from the seers.
Dave of Canada wrote...
We've heard of how prejudice and suspicious the people of Thedas are, mages are killed and feared by the public because of their abilities and for every single mage that does actually reach the Circle, we've got a few who didn't. How do the mages protect themselves from the normal people that hate them?
The first step might be to get the Chantry to stop spreading anti-mage propaganda. The second step would be to show people that mages don't need to be feared, as Anders did, which is why normal people were willing to kill Hawke in order to protect him.
Dave of Canada wrote...
They either oppress them and take their rights or sit back and be destroyed, mage freedom will have come at the cost of everybody else's freedom. We've already been shown that the Tevinter Imperium isn't some fantastic Mage paradise and this system would prove the Chantry right. They cannot let the public opinion sour and fight back, that'll only let them be overthrown by the public and be forced back into the Circle of Magi.
The Circles already seperated from the Chantry. It's no longer an issue of having to accept public opinion. Also, I respectfully disagree on the idea that mages will need to oppress others to have freedom. All mages need to do is maintain their autonomy, not enslave everyone around them.
Dave of Canada wrote...
If Templar win:
Mages will be shoved into the towers again, the public would probably feel that the Circles are justified and the public view on mages won't be well regarded. Any sympathy they might've gained over the years will have disappeared and it'll be hopeless for the mages to struggle, they'll have lost.
Had mages not defected from the Chantry and its templars, it would've been another thousand years of slavery. The choice was between continued subjugation or freedom.
#86
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:00
chester013
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A lot of talk about how much Tevinter sucks on this thread. I think the state of affairs in Tevinter isn't solely caused by magic. It seems there's a prevailing "I can so I should" and "might makes right" attitude there, hell if there was no magic and they had robotic battle suits it would likely be the same.
A culture with such a messed up moral compass and no checks and balances is going to be bad, magic or no magic just look at some of the more depraved Roman emperors it's messed up.
A culture with such a messed up moral compass and no checks and balances is going to be bad, magic or no magic just look at some of the more depraved Roman emperors it's messed up.
#87
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:08
Naughty Bear
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Another annulment, show the mages what will happen if they continue to abuse magic. No mercy, make them fear.
Oh and brainwash them.
You can control people with blood magic so there must be a spell where you can wipe out an entire personality and leaving you with the chance to take up their shoes and use their empty shell of a body as a spy. Thus spotting hidden blood magic users.
Oh and brainwash them.
You can control people with blood magic so there must be a spell where you can wipe out an entire personality and leaving you with the chance to take up their shoes and use their empty shell of a body as a spy. Thus spotting hidden blood magic users.
Modifié par Naughty Bear, 26 mars 2011 - 01:09 .
#88
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:11
LobselVith8
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Dave of Canada wrote...
Camenae wrote...
A decision-making panel with both Mage and Templar members.
Already exists. Gregoir can't do certain things without Irving's permission, for example when giving permission to tranquil Jowan. The mages themselves around Thedas united in Cumberland to discuss if they should break free from the Chantry, meaning they have some semblance of independence and are allowed to make choices that impact mage lives throughout Thedas.
You're mistaken. First Enchanter Irving never even saw the evidence against Jowan in the first place, and Knight-Commander Greagoir signed the Right against Jowan. Irving admits he had no say over the matter, and reveals that things would be different if it were up to him.
Dave of Canada wrote...
The dangers that we've seen shared by the Chantry actually all exist in the game, we've seen them a plenty in Dragon Age 2. Mind control, necromancy, blood magic, demon summoning, abominations... those aren't idle problems that wouldn't frighten people.
Given the different cultural attitudes towards mages in societies like the Dalish, the Chasind, the nation of Rivain, and even the town of Haven, I don't see why you'd assume that people woul fear or hate mages even without the Chantry's anti-mage stigma being propelled against them. We know those societies have different attitudes when it comes to mages and magic.
Dave of Canada wrote...
Mages did exist before but how do you think they dealt with abominations? IIRC, it was mentioned somewhere that before the Templar order existed, people would simply endure the Abomination until it was killed or left. They'd have to rebuild after it was dealt with, I doubt the public would love this system.
There's a difference between an order tasked with dealing with abominations and oppressing mages to the breaking point, though.
Dave of Canada wrote...
Random people being turned into creatures that can kill hundreds of people isn't a big enough problem until the Chantry has to mention it's a problem?
The risk of somebody being possessed by a demon at any moment, being able to influence the minds of others
Isn't that an argument for a law enforcement agency to deal with abominations, instead of an argument in support of a system that seems to create them?
Dave of Canada wrote...
Summoning demons to do your bidding and having the capability to mind control people against their will isn't evil, no. Will it be used for evil? Extremely likely, there's not a lot of practical "good" uses for it. Let's also not ignore how demons / blood magic tend to try and usurp you and take your place in your mind, like Merrill's demon who tried to "help" her.
I disagree. There are practical "good" uses for it. Grey Wardens use it to fight the darkspawn. Merrill used it to cleanse an Eluvian of its corruption. Finn used it to locate an Eluvian. Blood magic is also used to create Grey Wardens. Not everyone uses blood magic for vile purposes.
Dave of Canada wrote...
They don't forbid it completely, Ferelden's Circle itself had books on blood magic in the library for study. They only removed it when they assumed a student was practicing.
They do forbid blood magic completely, which is why blood mages are made tranquil or killed and blood magic is forbidden. If it wasn't, Jowan wouldn't have been signed up for the Right of Tranquility. Even the Grey Warden in DA:O would be killed if Wynne revealed he used blood magic (and the scene was only disabled because it was bugging the Landsmeet).
Dave of Canada wrote...
They are allowed to leave if they are given permission, Wynne for example is allowed to leave and join the Court and Finn himself manages to leave with the Warden / Ariane. All they have to do is not screw up their chances of getting permission.
They're allowed to leave with permission in the Ferelden Circle, and it's been said that Ferelden has one of the more liberal Circles out there. That's not the case for the oppressive Circles out there, since not all of them are as liberal as the Ferelden Circle. That's why some Circles forbid relationships and marriage, after all.
Dave of Canada wrote...
Because it worked for the past thousand years and only stopped working because a lot of mages decided to rebel at the same time, one does not abandon a system when it goes bad. We've had rebellions and wars over government systems or treatments of people but they still remain today, it doesn't mean that after the war we're supposed to throw it all away.
I disagree. Despite the fact that slavery worked for a thousand years, I don't think we should keep it around.
#89
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:27
LobselVith8
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XxDeonxX wrote...
That spell in harry potter where you make an agreement and if you break it you die.. Make all those born of magic swear never to use maleficarum or use their magic as an deliberate advantage to gain political power.. So if they break the promise they die.. That would be the best alternative
So we shouldn't have mages using blood magic to create Grey Wardens then?
Lianaar wrote...
Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages.
This isn't accurate. Demons can possess animals, trees, and regular people, it's simply that mages are an easier alternative. If demons could only possess mages, we wouldn't be dealing with possessed animals or dead trees inhabited by demons. It's mentioned in the Magi Origin that mages aren't the only ones who can be possessed.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 30 mars 2011 - 02:32 .
#90
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:32
Herr Uhl
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LobselVith8 wrote...
XxDeonxX wrote...
That spell in harry potter where you make an agreement and if you break it you die.. Make all those born of magic swear never to use maleficarum or use their magic as an deliberate advantage to gain political power.. So if they break the promise they die.. That would be the best alternative
So we shouldn't have mages using blood magic to create Grey Wardens then?
They don't need to use blood magic.
#91
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:33
Skwirl182
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concentrate the mages into labor camps.
#92
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:37
JediHealerCosmin
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Gabey5 wrote...
jedi order
This :innocent:
Use your power for the good of Thedas, you lazy
Modifié par JediHealerCosmin, 26 mars 2011 - 01:43 .
#93
Guest_Capt. Obvious_*
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:38
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Lianaar wrote...
A good thread, thank you for starting it.
First of all, there is the question:
do we want mages to roam free? Without any check and break?
They deserve freedom, because:
- they are humans (elves), with feelings, emotions, various skills and personalities
- magic is just a tool, like any other tools, you have, be it poison, weapon, retorics, gunpowder, healing potion
- oppression almost always leads to people fighting back, dissatisfaction makes people act, and do desparate measures
- a happy peaple growing up in healthy family surroundings, socialised to live within non-mages, and non-mages being socialised to live with mages are less prone to hatered and drastic measures.
There should be breaks because:
- they can not be asked to not use their "weapons", while you can tell a fighter: put down that sword and go into this pub without it, what can you do to a mage? drink this numbin potion, that prevents you from moving? You
can not rip the weapon they possess from them for durations. There is
no armband of limit or anti-magic field. It is not something you can
switch off and on, depending on need. It is always there.
- they are more prone to be possessed by demons/spirits (though we have seen that non-mages can be possessed too)
- demons are very very dangerous, not because they are strong, but because they know you. They do not make demands, they smartly feed on your own feelings. They do not evoke, they merely strengthen. Step by step they lure you into a direction they want you in. You will not even notice, when you step over the red line. Looking back, you might go: by the maker/creators/dread wolf/water, I never thought I will walk this far! But you don't look back, because what you see in front of you is so much better then what you leave behind. People becoming abominations are not stupid, thoughtless, evil, selfish people necessarily. But they are human. They have goals, desires, needs. Many of them are quite noble.
- it is dangerous (it can be random, unexpected). Just like I wouldn't let my child handle the fireplace alone, without supervision, I would hate my kids to play with Sandal (considering he occasionally blows up the place he is at), I do not let an unexperienced person peel a potato with a knife alone... there needs to be limits, supervision, study, education how to handle dangerous matters.
Let me pull a modern life example: prisons and asylums. Prisons and asylums close people away from the society who have the ability and power to endanger members of the society. If the prison inhabitants revolt, do you want them to set loose? No. Not even if the revolt is justified, because the (human) guards and jailors were abusive. We have often seen that, psychological studies show that people put in position of power, do things they never thought possible. Most of the experiements in this field had to be stopped because people involved became so radical. Do we want people let loose from the asylumns? It is not their fault, they are how they are, often they have not hurt anyone at all.
What is a likely scenario if mages live free?
After the initial relaxation of the mages, and the general fear that runs through the population, there will be abuses. People will kill mages for any unexplanable events (there was no rain for two weeks, I am sure the mage caused it). And unchecked mages will set damons lose on people, haunt their dreams. The ones having no moral boundaries will 'level up' fast , have money, bribe people, gain supporters, evoke fear, gain power. If we have a group of candidates for the power, the one with the best tools will gain it. And in most cases that's a mage without moral, self-imposed limits. It will be kind of like lawyers are seen. Most people hate lawyers, because they often get into contact with the powerful unethical ones. But it'll label -all- lawyers, not only the bad ones.
Is there an alternative to the circle?
I couldn't find one. Not if we define the cirlce as: a place where mages are supervised to ensure that the dangers of magic itself are limited to a minimum.
What is good in the circle?
- education, the mages need to learn how to deal with the tools they can not part with. Just lik a child needs to learn how to walk, speak, write, eat...you can not push a sword into the hand of a 4 year old and go: good luck, see you whenever. It is dangerous both to the kid and his surroundings. None ever considers doing it. Magic is the same, just not by choice, the maker or whoever created people of Thedas put magic in the hands of children and let them lose. Without any guidance and help. How can a non-mage teach a mage to use the tool? A non mage has neither the capacity, nor the chance to understand magic, because we likely lack the sensory organs for it (otherwise it would not only be mages who are possessed by demons). If you put those people in a surrounding that is full with people who can understand what they go through, who can teach them how to live with magic, and make magic a gift instead of a curse, then we win. Segragation is not always bad. At times it serves the needs of people who are segrageted, think on schools which have smaller classes, and less fast spaced lessons, or other schools that are more focused on sports in order to handle hyperactive children. Every sort of need can be supplied for in the proper form and institute. Even today, specially gifted and talented kids are likely to end up in schools for specially gifted and talented kids, no?
- mechanism to handle mages that lost their limits
What is bad in the circle?
It is an institute run by humans. And humans are faulty. Humans often seek power over the others (maybe a hint from old time animalistic rivalry and dominance fighst?) Just like mages will go stray, their supervisors will go stray. No ideology, however noble and fine, will be able to withstand human greed and manipulation. All fine ideologies failed there. So as long as we can not rip ourselves from everything that makes us human, whatever we come up with, will have flaws.
What could be done to improve the circles?
- control for the templars. This would mean a right for the Circle to appeal eg to the Chantry or the ruler of the place, to check on the templars. Just like the right of the templars to call on an outside place to check on the mages. Probably I would rip the right of annulment from the Templars, and make it a right of initiating annulment with an upper forum, mostly outside forum. One that consists of mages and non-mages both. (yay, for administration)
- family surroundings: allowing families that wish for it, to live near the circles. That would make circles have a town evolved around them, where mages and non-mages would live in a cooperation, socialising both mages and non-mages how to handle each other.
- field trips? part of the education would be teaching mages how to handle non-mages that fear them. To make them see, that their uniqueness will always evoke fear on those who don't possess such power.
- education for those passing the harrowing in blood magic and about demons, so they understand the dangers and are not so easy pray for the demons
- general permits to leave and live outside of the circle for those who "finished school", with the promise of returning yearly for a "demon-scan" (go to the fade and check how he is there, demons appear in the fade after all).
Even Trevinter mages have their own "templars'", just with less power. Even the Keepers have their own "templars" (the whole clan) who kill an abomination Keeper. And magic knowing people at the Dalish are not walking free, they are linked to the Keeper.
It would be nice to have some tools that would allow people to see if someone is an abomination or under the influence of a demon or not (just like it would be nice to be able to tell if someone has the taint or not). It would be nice to have a tool, that temporarily prevents mages to be able to use their abilities (anti-magic fields, double void bracelets, demon repellants). But there are no such things in Thedas.
Are all mages corrupt? No, not more then any other human. They just have more power to do harm if they go astray.
Oh no, don't give us the, "Humans are greedy and faulty and horrible and blah blah blah" bullsh!t. Each race is both morally stupid, except the Qunari, who are more like Knight Templars(the tvtrope definitin). If Dwarves were magical and they had their own Circle of Magi they could be just as corrupt.
#94
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 01:57
LobselVith8
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Herr Uhl wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
XxDeonxX wrote...
That spell in harry potter where you make an agreement and if you break it you die.. Make all those born of magic swear never to use maleficarum or use their magic as an deliberate advantage to gain political power.. So if they break the promise they die.. That would be the best alternative
So we shouldn't have mages using blood magic to create Grey Wardens then?
They don't need to use blood magic.
The Joining involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. It's blood magic.
#95
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:05
Nerdage
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The blood isn't the fuel though, which is what defines blood magic.LobselVith8 wrote...
The Joining involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. It's blood magic.
#96
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:10
Apollo Starflare
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Just to clarify something that came up earlier: As late as Act 3 the Gallows are not an actual prison with Mages confined to solitary cells. Various quote I seem to remember back this up, but off the top of my head there is Cullen saying that the Blood Mages not killed from Grace and Trask''s group are confined to quarters as a punishment. Just the fact that some Mages wonder around the courtyard seems to go against the idea they were all locked up.
The more I think about it, the more it seems like the rebellious Mage groups working in Kirkwall (and various codex entries and conversations mention them) of which Anders was a member used Meredith and her reputation to their advantage inciting the situation further. There seemed far too much truth in Meredith's accusations by the end of the game, and far too little evidence of what she was supposed to be doing to them beyond being paranoid.
All this means that the Kirkwall situation is one that could have been avoided if the idea of the Circle was re-evaluated and put under stricter supervision and rules by the Chantry or local Government. I'd pretty much go with the idea of making Circle's more appealing places to stay and trying to diffuse some of the tension between the Templars and the Mages (even if it meant forming a new group to protect and guard), although obviously there would always be disagreement between the two. I don't see the war helping at all, but hopefully by the end of it there will be enough left to start forming something that works.
Well to be fair they have done on numerous occasions, be it through study, council or war. They are credited as being the difference between Thedas and the Qunari afterall.
If a Jedi turns to the dark side it's a similar situation perhaps, but due to the lack of demonic possession (mostly) it usually manifests as a war between the Dark Jedi and the Jedi/Republic. Civilians get caught in the crossfire in both, but with abominations in the picture the rammifications of a bunch of powerful beings going bad would probably be seen and felt sooner and more painfully than that example. Plus the Jedi Order has failed so many times to contain their version of blood mages it's a pretty poor example to look up to.
The more I think about it, the more it seems like the rebellious Mage groups working in Kirkwall (and various codex entries and conversations mention them) of which Anders was a member used Meredith and her reputation to their advantage inciting the situation further. There seemed far too much truth in Meredith's accusations by the end of the game, and far too little evidence of what she was supposed to be doing to them beyond being paranoid.
All this means that the Kirkwall situation is one that could have been avoided if the idea of the Circle was re-evaluated and put under stricter supervision and rules by the Chantry or local Government. I'd pretty much go with the idea of making Circle's more appealing places to stay and trying to diffuse some of the tension between the Templars and the Mages (even if it meant forming a new group to protect and guard), although obviously there would always be disagreement between the two. I don't see the war helping at all, but hopefully by the end of it there will be enough left to start forming something that works.
JediHealerCosmin wrote...
Use your power for the good of Thedas, you lazybumsmages
Well to be fair they have done on numerous occasions, be it through study, council or war. They are credited as being the difference between Thedas and the Qunari afterall.
If a Jedi turns to the dark side it's a similar situation perhaps, but due to the lack of demonic possession (mostly) it usually manifests as a war between the Dark Jedi and the Jedi/Republic. Civilians get caught in the crossfire in both, but with abominations in the picture the rammifications of a bunch of powerful beings going bad would probably be seen and felt sooner and more painfully than that example. Plus the Jedi Order has failed so many times to contain their version of blood mages it's a pretty poor example to look up to.
#97
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:12
Amagoi
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I think we should gather up all the mages, and move them into Val Royeaux, and then wall the city off and it can be called something like... Magopolis.Srsly tho, I'd just keep the Circle. IMO, most of the people screeching for mage freedom are people that have watched Braveheart a bit too much. Sometimes FREEEEEDOOOOMMM isn't the answer.
The changes I would make to the Circle? I'd rather the Templars not be part of it. Rather the Circle become a bit more self-governing. The same role of the Templars could be served more efficiently by a specific order of mages dedicated to rooting out blood magic and other threats. Maybe if it became necessary for someone to watch the watchmen, they could answer to the Grand Cleric over the First Enchanter.
That and maybe let parents and friends visit the mages at the Circle. Since we can't realistically have all the apprentices running off to see their loved ones and risk not coming back.
The changes I would make to the Circle? I'd rather the Templars not be part of it. Rather the Circle become a bit more self-governing. The same role of the Templars could be served more efficiently by a specific order of mages dedicated to rooting out blood magic and other threats. Maybe if it became necessary for someone to watch the watchmen, they could answer to the Grand Cleric over the First Enchanter.
That and maybe let parents and friends visit the mages at the Circle. Since we can't realistically have all the apprentices running off to see their loved ones and risk not coming back.
#98
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:13
Nerdage
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How many circle mages do you see walking about outside of the Gallows' courtyard? The courtyard is still the Gallows and they aren't allowed to leave.Apollo Starflare wrote...
Just to clarify something that came up earlier: As late as Act 3 the Gallows are not an actual prison with Mages confined to solitary cells. Various quote I seem to remember back this up, but off the top of my head there is Cullen saying that the Blood Mages not killed from Grace and Trask''s group are confined to quarters as a punishment. Just the fact that some Mages wonder around the courtyard seems to go against the idea they were all locked up.
#99
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:19
Lianaar
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Capt. Obvious wrote...
Oh no, don't give us the, "Humans are greedy and faulty and horrible and blah blah blah" bullsh!t. Each race is both morally stupid, except the Qunari, who are more like Knight Templars(the tvtrope definitin). If Dwarves were magical and they had their own Circle of Magi they could be just as corrupt.
I wasn't implying it is a fault of humans only. Elves and dwarves are subject to power too. We are all egoistic creatures, races. There are individuums which are less subject to it, some who are more, but it is a typical behavioral pattern. (Also, no need to curse. I am capable of taking different opinions without the use of certain words too
)
#100
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:24
Lianaar
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Apollo Starflare wrote...
Just to clarify something that came up earlier: As late as Act 3 the Gallows are not an actual prison with Mages confined to solitary cells. Various quote I seem to remember back this up, but off the top of my head there is Cullen saying that the Blood Mages not killed from Grace and Trask''s group are confined to quarters as a punishment. Just the fact that some Mages wonder around the courtyard seems to go against the idea they were all locked up.
On my second play through I convinced the blood mages to give themselves up. The templars decided to attack anyway, and I told them: no, you can not execute them on sight. Then the templars attacked me. Grace ran off.
However later she was captured, and guess where I met her? In the Gallows... walking free. Despite being told to kill a group of templars, despite evidence (false or true) that showed she uses blood magic, despite being an escape mage... she was not executed on sight, but allowed to walk relatively free in the Gallows. That surprised me quite a bit and changed my view that was formed until then about the Gallows.
There are examples of abuse on both sides. However the situation is not clear cut.
On the other hand, I just replayed the part where I have to go from the first location of the last straw to the Docks, and I paid attention to the ratio of apostates to bloodmages and abominations, and there were more common circle mages, then the other group. So my original feeling, claiming everyone and their next is blood mage or abomination was a wrong perception and a shift of memories due to weight of the story.
Modifié par Lianaar, 26 mars 2011 - 02:27 .
