Mages aren't the problem. Demons are the problem. Get rid of the demons.
Name me a better alternative to the Circle of Magi.
Débuté par
Dave of Canada
, mars 26 2011 07:41
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#102
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:28
TobiTobsen
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Lianaar wrote...
Apollo Starflare wrote...
Just to clarify something that came up earlier: As late as Act 3 the Gallows are not an actual prison with Mages confined to solitary cells. Various quote I seem to remember back this up, but off the top of my head there is Cullen saying that the Blood Mages not killed from Grace and Trask''s group are confined to quarters as a punishment. Just the fact that some Mages wonder around the courtyard seems to go against the idea they were all locked up.
On my second play through I convinced the blood mages to give themselves up. The templars decided to attack anyway, and I told them: no, you can not execute them on sight. Then the templars attacked me. Grace ran off.
However later she was captured, and guess where I met her? In the Gallows... walking free. Despite being told to kill a group of templars, despite evidence (false or true) that showed she uses blood magic, despite being an escape mage... she was not executed on sight, but allowed to walk relatively free in the Gallows. That surprised me quite a bit and changed my view that was formed until then about the Gallows.
There are examples of abuse on both sides. However the situation is not clear cut.
In that case Grace had the luck of not being one of the three random mages the templars picked out of her group to be killed or tranquiled as an example. Just curious why the templars thought that letting her live would be good. She is clearly one of the most vocal supporters of rebellion... but hey... the Kirkwall templars aren't exactly the brightest bunch. Building a circle right inside a city thats nothing more than a freaking huge Tevinter blood altar.
#103
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:31
LobselVith8
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nerdage wrote...
The blood isn't the fuel though, which is what defines blood magic.LobselVith8 wrote...
The Joining involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. It's blood magic.
You're talking about Finn's comment in Witch Hunt. Despite Finn's comment about that, he asks the Warden not to tell anyone about his ritual despite his comment that the ritual he's using isn't powered by blood. It's clearly not as cut and dry, as even Finn admits it's a "grey area," and since it specifically involves blood and magic, I see no reason why one form of blood and magic can be considered blood magic while the other would be dismissed.
#104
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:36
TobiTobsen
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LobselVith8 wrote...
nerdage wrote...
The blood isn't the fuel though, which is what defines blood magic.LobselVith8 wrote...
The Joining involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. It's blood magic.
You're talking about Finn's comment in Witch Hunt. Despite Finn's comment about that, he asks the Warden not to tell anyone about his ritual despite his comment that the ritual he's using isn't powered by blood. It's clearly not as cut and dry, as even Finn admits it's a "grey area," and since it specifically involves blood and magic, I see no reason why one form of blood and magic can be considered blood magic while the other would be dismissed.
Didn't even David Gaider said that the joining was indeed blood magic? Or was that his comment about phylacterys... hmhm... can't remeber.
#105
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:38
Lord Gremlin
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I say we negotiate with demons and establish monthly possession quota, complete with filling the papers and other bureaucratic stuff. And then we establish sloth demons as bureaucrats. There. If we must have demonic possession let's make it organized.JamieCOTC wrote...
Mages aren't the problem. Demons are the problem. Get rid of the demons.
#106
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:44
Camenae
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JamieCOTC wrote...
Mages aren't the problem. Demons are the problem. Get rid of the demons.
Amen. Treat the cause, not just the symptom!
Can spirits in the Fade go and pick fights with each other? If so I say we send Justice into the Fade more often to have him thin the herd a little bit. That and train more dreamers like Feynriel, only instead of doing god-knows-what in the Fade, they can put their talent to good use by fighting demons in there.
#107
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:45
Medhia Nox
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The blood mage states it very clearly in the quest where you save the Templar - only through blood magic can demons be allowed to possess normal people. A great example of a normal person who thinks he's obsessed is the elf girl killer - I think you even say something like: "He's not even a mage." (though I can't be sure of that one).
As for a solution:
1) Mages should need to be registered with the Chantry or the state (I prefer the state, but the Chantry is more uniform in that it crosses country boundaries).
2) Mages should be forbidden to learn all martial magic. Only those in the militaries of the state (or Chantry) should be allowed to practice martial spells. Yes, this is basically all the spells in the games (of course, since the games revolve around combat).
- Any mage not registered for martial spell use, but caught using such spells (even in self-defense) will be subject to fines - then incarceration - and finally, Tranquility.
3) Phylacteries would still be enforced - it would be a process of registration.
4) Blood magic is strictly forbidden and use of it is a zero toleration enforced Tranquility.
5) The Harrowing remains required to learn anything more than the most rudimentary magic. If a practitioner is fine retaining the capacity of a "hedge wizard" - that is permissible as their magic will be deemed largely harmless. However - to learn anything more, the Harrowing would be required.
- Any "Hedge Wizard" practicing magic above his station would be subject first to a fine, then incarceration, then to a forced Harrowing or Tranquility.
6) All use of magic is consider premeditated.
7) Abominations are strictly prohibited. Only under the most extreme conditions can the Chantry or state sanction those spirits which are deemed benign in nature. Any infraction caused by a registered "abomination" would result in immediate Tranquility.
8) All mages who desire to live within the confines of the tower will have their family awarded with a yearly stipend. Families will not be allowed to live within the confines of the tower, but communities are encouraged to grow in the vicinity of the Circle Tower.
9) No items of any sort can be removed from the mage Tower without express consent of the duel offices of the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander Templar (forget their official name). Under this new law, even staves would be prohibited except for those serving the state or Chantry in a military capacity.
10) Towns are free to regulate their own capacity of mages. A town willing to take in one mage will be given a leniency on yearly taxes. Every ten mages will provide increased tax cuts for the town. Towns are within their right to prohibit the settlement of mages within their territories. This is due to the unpredictable nature of mages and magic and the fact that no citizen should be made to feel endangered (and well founded in a fantasy world) by neighbors due to forces beyond the normal person's control.
11) The Rite of Annulment is abolished as the mage towers are no longer the centers of mage population that they once were.
12) The Templar order is answerable to the state. Templars will no longer reside as wardens to the mage population on a direct basis. They will register, regulate, and control wayward mages.
13) Apostates are unregistered mages who defy the laws of the state. These mages will still be hunted down. If they do not accept forced registry - they will be exposed to the Rite of Tranquility.
14) Any mage who willingly submits to the Rite of Tranquility will have awarded to their family a significant stipend of state service. The Tranquil will serve the state in a nearly endless number of stations using their capacity for focus, their unwavering loyalty, and their ability to enchant.
====
At least, that's what Kirkwall is gonna be now that I'm Viscount.
As for a solution:
1) Mages should need to be registered with the Chantry or the state (I prefer the state, but the Chantry is more uniform in that it crosses country boundaries).
2) Mages should be forbidden to learn all martial magic. Only those in the militaries of the state (or Chantry) should be allowed to practice martial spells. Yes, this is basically all the spells in the games (of course, since the games revolve around combat).
- Any mage not registered for martial spell use, but caught using such spells (even in self-defense) will be subject to fines - then incarceration - and finally, Tranquility.
3) Phylacteries would still be enforced - it would be a process of registration.
4) Blood magic is strictly forbidden and use of it is a zero toleration enforced Tranquility.
5) The Harrowing remains required to learn anything more than the most rudimentary magic. If a practitioner is fine retaining the capacity of a "hedge wizard" - that is permissible as their magic will be deemed largely harmless. However - to learn anything more, the Harrowing would be required.
- Any "Hedge Wizard" practicing magic above his station would be subject first to a fine, then incarceration, then to a forced Harrowing or Tranquility.
6) All use of magic is consider premeditated.
7) Abominations are strictly prohibited. Only under the most extreme conditions can the Chantry or state sanction those spirits which are deemed benign in nature. Any infraction caused by a registered "abomination" would result in immediate Tranquility.
8) All mages who desire to live within the confines of the tower will have their family awarded with a yearly stipend. Families will not be allowed to live within the confines of the tower, but communities are encouraged to grow in the vicinity of the Circle Tower.
9) No items of any sort can be removed from the mage Tower without express consent of the duel offices of the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander Templar (forget their official name). Under this new law, even staves would be prohibited except for those serving the state or Chantry in a military capacity.
10) Towns are free to regulate their own capacity of mages. A town willing to take in one mage will be given a leniency on yearly taxes. Every ten mages will provide increased tax cuts for the town. Towns are within their right to prohibit the settlement of mages within their territories. This is due to the unpredictable nature of mages and magic and the fact that no citizen should be made to feel endangered (and well founded in a fantasy world) by neighbors due to forces beyond the normal person's control.
11) The Rite of Annulment is abolished as the mage towers are no longer the centers of mage population that they once were.
12) The Templar order is answerable to the state. Templars will no longer reside as wardens to the mage population on a direct basis. They will register, regulate, and control wayward mages.
13) Apostates are unregistered mages who defy the laws of the state. These mages will still be hunted down. If they do not accept forced registry - they will be exposed to the Rite of Tranquility.
14) Any mage who willingly submits to the Rite of Tranquility will have awarded to their family a significant stipend of state service. The Tranquil will serve the state in a nearly endless number of stations using their capacity for focus, their unwavering loyalty, and their ability to enchant.
====
At least, that's what Kirkwall is gonna be now that I'm Viscount.
Modifié par Medhia Nox, 26 mars 2011 - 02:46 .
#109
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 02:59
Nerdage
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Well...TobiTobsen wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
nerdage wrote...
The blood isn't the fuel though, which is what defines blood magic.LobselVith8 wrote...
The Joining involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. It's blood magic.
You're talking about Finn's comment in Witch Hunt. Despite Finn's comment about that, he asks the Warden not to tell anyone about his ritual despite his comment that the ritual he's using isn't powered by blood. It's clearly not as cut and dry, as even Finn admits it's a "grey area," and since it specifically involves blood and magic, I see no reason why one form of blood and magic can be considered blood magic while the other would be dismissed.
Didn't even David Gaider said that the joining was indeed blood magic? Or was that his comment about phylacterys... hmhm... can't remeber.
...Which contradics the Wiki. Makes it pretty hard to know what exactly happens, but this quote at least makes it sound like, if archdemon blood is used, you don't even need magic.David Gaider wrote...
Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone, rather than slowly enough to sicken them. Archdemon blood can be used (though is understandably much rarer), but any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work. Your rank-and-file darkspawn simply doesn't have enough of the corruption within him to do the trick... though who knows?
Also, I wasn't really thinking of Finn, just saying that using magic *on* blood down't change what the magic is, so it isn't necessarily blood magic. If you use a fire spell to boil a pool of blood does that make it blood magic? Sounds more like some kind of magically-enhanced alchemy involving blood.
Modifié par nerdage, 26 mars 2011 - 02:59 .
#110
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 03:21
Zan Mura
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No need really. You don't always need an alternative solution before knowing there must be a change. For a slave, it's perfectly justified to want freedom without knowing how to have an orderly, balanced and productive life with that freedom. For them, the first step is just having it. All other concerns are secondary. When they finally do, THEN it can be the time to figure out what to actually do with it.
Point being, I'll assume we're looking at this from the mage's and from Anders' point of view. Naturally it's all well and fine and great if Anders had had a great plan about how to change it all so all the parties would be nice and happy with it. But if that was the case, would he have needed to resort to his methods in the first place? For a mage, a long-term solution isn't necessary. A solution that benefits all parties is also not necessary. To them, the only thing they need to know is that for THEMSELVES the situation is completely unacceptable. When your personal rights are stomped on, abused at a whim and in general your life is that of slavery to others... why should you worry about the wellbeing of those others, when faced with the prospect of gaining your own freedom?
Or to *really* put it bluntly: If you had to choose between slavery for your family, friends and loved ones, and happiness for everyone else directly at the cost of your misery... or vice versa, which would you choose? I know I wouldn't give a rat's buttocks for the others. Friends, family and myself ALWAYS come first.
Point being, I'll assume we're looking at this from the mage's and from Anders' point of view. Naturally it's all well and fine and great if Anders had had a great plan about how to change it all so all the parties would be nice and happy with it. But if that was the case, would he have needed to resort to his methods in the first place? For a mage, a long-term solution isn't necessary. A solution that benefits all parties is also not necessary. To them, the only thing they need to know is that for THEMSELVES the situation is completely unacceptable. When your personal rights are stomped on, abused at a whim and in general your life is that of slavery to others... why should you worry about the wellbeing of those others, when faced with the prospect of gaining your own freedom?
Or to *really* put it bluntly: If you had to choose between slavery for your family, friends and loved ones, and happiness for everyone else directly at the cost of your misery... or vice versa, which would you choose? I know I wouldn't give a rat's buttocks for the others. Friends, family and myself ALWAYS come first.
Modifié par Zan Mura, 26 mars 2011 - 03:26 .
#111
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 03:37
Darkshore
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The Circle itself is not entirely bad. It is a necessary evil so to speak, but when you get religious fanatics thrown into the mix and give them power and control over the Mages...that causes trouble. The Templars are born and bred to believe that Mages and Magicare almost inherently evil and most of them treat the Mages as such. It's a self fulfilling prophecy, if you call someone evil enough and treat them like a ticking time bomb they will eventually become one. Meredith was the most fanatical of them yet and she caused almost an entire circle to turn to Blood Magic.
Modifié par Darkshore, 26 mars 2011 - 03:38 .
#112
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 03:46
Lianaar
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Zan Mura wrote...
Point being, I'll assume we're looking at this from the mage's and from Anders' point of view. Naturally it's all well and fine and great if Anders had had a great plan about how to change it all so all the parties would be nice and happy with it. But if that was the case, would he have needed to resort to his methods in the first place? For a mage, a long-term solution isn't necessary. A solution that benefits all parties is also not necessary. To them, the only thing they need to know is that for THEMSELVES the situation is completely unacceptable. When your personal rights are stomped on, abused at a whim and in general your life is that of slavery to others... why should you worry about the wellbeing of those others, when faced with the prospect of gaining your own freedom?
Perspectives count. What if I am a Ferelden mage, going on my own little paths, returning from time to time to the circle. Visiting my family, living my life, mostly being left alone as long as I keep away from demons and blood magic. Yeah, it was though living without my family in the beggining. It was also though living without my teachers in the beggining.
Suddenly some idiot out in Kirkwall just convinced the Chantry and the Templars that -I- and all other mages as well, are a risk, and must be killed. Well, thank you, Anders. Nice move!
What I fully agree with is, that everything is a matter of perspective and when it is the general good or your own family's/loved ones' good, then most people go for the good of those they love and care for as opposed the faceless mass. That's what I would do.
#113
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 04:38
earl of the north
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[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]earl of the north wrote...
Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages. [/quote]
This isn't accurate. Demons can possess animals, trees, and regular people, it's simply that mages are an easier alternative. If demons could only possess mages, we wouldn't be dealing with possessed animals or dead trees inhabited by demons. It's mentioned in the Magi Origin that mages aren't the only ones who can be possessed.[/quote]
Why are quoting me as saying that?
Edit:
Okay found my earlier post.....
[quote]earl of the north wrote...
[quote]AlexXIV wrote...
[quote]Lianaar wrote...
[quote]AlexXIV wrote...
What if normal people get possessed. Just for the theory sake. Let's say all mages get killed. Do you think the demons disappear or give up on trying to possess people?[/quote]
It is not that easy. Demons pray on mages, because mages are generally the one who they can possess. Kirkwall is about the only exception we saw, and the most frightening impilcation of the game. In Kirkwall non-mages could be possessed too (though not without magical help.) Kirkwall is however special due to many factors (there are quite a few threads discussing this topic.)
Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages.
[/quote]
No, that's basically twisting reality. I saw a possessed cat. I saw possessed templars and other people in DA:O and DA:A as well. Mages may be easiest to be possessed, but that doesn't change that demons, if they fail to get hold on a mage, will try to find the next best victim. Removing the mages does not remove the Fade or demons from the world. As far as I know anyway.[/quote]
Possession is possible for anyone/anything in areas where the veil to the fade is weak, however.....
[quote]I saw a possessed cat[/quote]Due to a mage living outside of the circle.
[quote]I saw possessed templars[/quote]Due to a mage rebellion in DA:O and due to Blood Mages in DA2
You apparently need Mage involvement to have demonic possession, unless you're wandering around an area which most people will avoid like the plague like Sundermount.[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]earl of the north wrote...
Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages. [/quote]
This isn't accurate. Demons can possess animals, trees, and regular people, it's simply that mages are an easier alternative. If demons could only possess mages, we wouldn't be dealing with possessed animals or dead trees inhabited by demons. It's mentioned in the Magi Origin that mages aren't the only ones who can be possessed.[/quote]
Why are quoting me as saying that?
Edit:
Okay found my earlier post.....
[quote]earl of the north wrote...
[quote]AlexXIV wrote...
[quote]Lianaar wrote...
[quote]AlexXIV wrote...
What if normal people get possessed. Just for the theory sake. Let's say all mages get killed. Do you think the demons disappear or give up on trying to possess people?[/quote]
It is not that easy. Demons pray on mages, because mages are generally the one who they can possess. Kirkwall is about the only exception we saw, and the most frightening impilcation of the game. In Kirkwall non-mages could be possessed too (though not without magical help.) Kirkwall is however special due to many factors (there are quite a few threads discussing this topic.)
Still, in a general statement we can safely claim, that demons can only possess mages.
[/quote]
No, that's basically twisting reality. I saw a possessed cat. I saw possessed templars and other people in DA:O and DA:A as well. Mages may be easiest to be possessed, but that doesn't change that demons, if they fail to get hold on a mage, will try to find the next best victim. Removing the mages does not remove the Fade or demons from the world. As far as I know anyway.[/quote]
Possession is possible for anyone/anything in areas where the veil to the fade is weak, however.....
[quote]I saw a possessed cat[/quote]Due to a mage living outside of the circle.
[quote]I saw possessed templars[/quote]Due to a mage rebellion in DA:O and due to Blood Mages in DA2
You apparently need Mage involvement to have demonic possession, unless you're wandering around an area which most people will avoid like the plague like Sundermount.[/quote]
[/quote]
Modifié par earl of the north, 26 mars 2011 - 04:43 .
#114
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 04:41
cactusberry
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Small mage towns guarded by templars where mage's families can live. Win-win for both sides? Templars get to control mages, mages get to live in a town with family.
#115
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 04:42
Camenae
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An alternative would be to give the Mages a purpose that is incompatible with blood magic. The Chantry has squandered an invaluable PR and charity opportunity in their treatment of the Mages.
I don't see why Anders didn't take on more apostate healers to better staff his clinic. It's not like the place is a secret from anybody anyway.
I also don't see why the Chantry didn't have an official healing branch that employs Mage healers. What better way to convince people of the miracles of your god and "magic exists to serve man" than being able to heal the masses with magic??
I don't see why Anders didn't take on more apostate healers to better staff his clinic. It's not like the place is a secret from anybody anyway.
I also don't see why the Chantry didn't have an official healing branch that employs Mage healers. What better way to convince people of the miracles of your god and "magic exists to serve man" than being able to heal the masses with magic??
#116
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 04:56
Arppis
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Well, here is how I would do it:
Just get the blood sample from every born mage as they do now (phila... phalot... what's the vial's name again?!). Give them education about magic and such, but let them live with their parents, who also get information about how to live with the child who is magicaly talented. They could form a team of templars and mages to hunt down those who misuse the magical talents.
Bit of freedom goes a long way in terms of making sure that the society stays safe. Plus because mages can now hunt blood mages, they get more resoponsibility and because they are now PART OF THE SOCIETY (not just prisoners), they will carry their weight. If person has a place in the society and they are accepted better, they will also work FOR that place they have. Plus they get to know their parents this way, they get to have meaningful relationships and children. I'm sure those things are worth fighting for, unlike now that they basicaly got NOTHING. They can only excist.
Just get the blood sample from every born mage as they do now (phila... phalot... what's the vial's name again?!). Give them education about magic and such, but let them live with their parents, who also get information about how to live with the child who is magicaly talented. They could form a team of templars and mages to hunt down those who misuse the magical talents.
Bit of freedom goes a long way in terms of making sure that the society stays safe. Plus because mages can now hunt blood mages, they get more resoponsibility and because they are now PART OF THE SOCIETY (not just prisoners), they will carry their weight. If person has a place in the society and they are accepted better, they will also work FOR that place they have. Plus they get to know their parents this way, they get to have meaningful relationships and children. I'm sure those things are worth fighting for, unlike now that they basicaly got NOTHING. They can only excist.
Modifié par Arppis, 26 mars 2011 - 04:57 .
#117
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 05:01
Saboteur-6
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IronWolf1987 wrote...
Triangle of Magi.
Rhombus of Magi.
But seriously, the Circle of Magi "school of magic" as an institution needs to exist to educate new Mages and prevent destructive use of Magic. The catch is, it needs to exist SEPERATE from the Chantry or at least in CONJUNCTION with the Chantry...not in SERVITUDE of the Chantry. Because let's face it...the use of something so powerful as magic needs to be kept in check and solely relying on self-regulation from a completely autonomous Circle just provides too easy an opporunity for corruption and abuse of power. Tevinter is a good example of the "negative" of this alternative.
Either that, or institute an autonomous institution to regulate Magic users akin to the Grey Wardens. Call them...I don't know...the Indigo Watchmen (Azure Sentinels?) or something. This would liberate Mages from the persecution of the Chantry that views Magic as an aberration but would impede the Circle from becoming corrupt through self-regulation.
Modifié par Vech24, 26 mars 2011 - 05:06 .
#118
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 05:23
Magicman10893
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I don't think the Circles should be abolished, just reconfigured. Make the Circles mandatory, but let the apprentices leave the Circle to see their family or let their family visit. Have the Templars back off a bit so the Mages can get some privacy, but still be there in the event that a Mage turns into an Abomination. Allow Mages to have basic rights, like having a title, land and have children and relationships. After the Mages have proven that they can handle and control their powers (around ages 21 to 30) let them be free of the Circle. Also allow them to leave the Circle to visit towns and socialize from time to time. That way the Circle is less of a prison and more of a boarding school for Mages.
That way the Mages learn to control their powers from experienced Mages and still have the Templars there to protect from Abominations. So rather than the Templars be the evil overseers and prison wardens, they are more akin to a Security Officer that are in some highschools. Mages have freedom and the people have Templars to protect them, the best of both worlds if I say so myself.
That way the Mages learn to control their powers from experienced Mages and still have the Templars there to protect from Abominations. So rather than the Templars be the evil overseers and prison wardens, they are more akin to a Security Officer that are in some highschools. Mages have freedom and the people have Templars to protect them, the best of both worlds if I say so myself.
#119
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 05:40
soignee
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Also, mages are a small percentage (1-2%, maybe less) of the populace that are feared by normal Johns and Jane Smiths. THE MAGE DID IT THEY ARE THE REASON MY CROPS FAILED BURN THEM etc and so forth. No one has mentioned this, and dealing with the people's mass fear of What Mages Could Do is something you can't erase instantly.
#121
Posté 26 mars 2011 - 05:54
Saboteur-6
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Magicman10893 wrote...
I don't think the Circles should be abolished, just reconfigured. Make the Circles mandatory, but let the apprentices leave the Circle to see their family or let their family visit. Have the Templars back off a bit so the Mages can get some privacy, but still be there in the event that a Mage turns into an Abomination. Allow Mages to have basic rights, like having a title, land and have children and relationships. After the Mages have proven that they can handle and control their powers (around ages 21 to 30) let them be free of the Circle. Also allow them to leave the Circle to visit towns and socialize from time to time. That way the Circle is less of a prison and more of a boarding school for Mages.
That way the Mages learn to control their powers from experienced Mages and still have the Templars there to protect from Abominations. So rather than the Templars be the evil overseers and prison wardens, they are more akin to a Security Officer that are in some highschools. Mages have freedom and the people have Templars to protect them, the best of both worlds if I say so myself.
Nope. No way the Templars would just "back off if we ask them nicely." I agree with you in that:
A. A Circle of Magi needs to exist in some fashion,
B. This Circle needs regulated by a seperate governing institution
C. That Mages deserve more freedom.
Like Soignee pointed out...the perception of Magic would have to change in order for the insitituon related to Magic users to have a chance at changing. Relying on the Templars as a form of regulation is doomed to pepertually lead to conflict since the interpretation of the Chantry is vindicated, in their eyes, as divine right. Or rather...they use their religion to justify the subjigation of Mages.
It's like having the Ku Klux Klan regulate and uphold structure in an institution created for and populated by "ethnic non-whites."
Modifié par Vech24, 26 mars 2011 - 06:06 .
#122
Posté 29 mars 2011 - 03:15
Dean_the_Young
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There are a lot of reforms that could be done. Most involve improving the current system, not replacing it. Self-regulation and voluntary compliance, given the nature of the risks involved, isn't a suitable answer for the other 99.9% of the population which is far more vulnerable to the costs of magic.
Systematically, more checks and balances would be better all around. Not only on the Templar side, to be able to restrain the rogue Merediths of the Order, but against the First Enchanters like Orsino deliberately stone walling valid Templar issues. Like protecting maleficars.
On the Templar side, a system by which an overzealous Templar Commander can be relieved as a formal proceeding (say, as a majority vote of five sub-commanders headed by the Vice-Commander) would allow lower-ranking Templars moderate, or press, the Knight Commander. On the Mage side, the First Enchanter can be overruled by the votes of the heads of the Fraternities, whose voting power is a matter of relative membership.
In a deadlock between either Knight Commander or First Enchanter, the Grand Cleric can act as a mediator. To avoid over-powering the mages, and giving too much temptation to manipulate the thoughts and mind of the Grand Cleric by mind-magic in order to assure a constant two-thirds majority, to overrule the Knight Commander the Mages need the aggreement of at least two of the five Templar sub-commanders, as a sign of significant concern/agreement within the Templars as well.
On a larger scale, mages could be democratically empowered (good for commitment into the system) and yet organizationally weakened by giving the Fraternities formal, as opposed to unofficial, recognition and involvement. A Mage Congress, only institutionalized, and with (king-making) Templar involvement as well: the Templars represent an ordered, organized faction (but with allowance for nuance), while the mages as a whole are divided, not unified, by their factional differences. Representation is determined by Fraternity size, and democratic moderation isolates and sidelines radicals. While the Mage Congress isn't all-powerful or decisive on its own, and can be overruled, giving mages an investment in the system will reduce the allure of revolution.
In practice of the Circles themselves, two major aspects deserve to be changed: humanity-conditioning (in terms of encouraging and supporting mental healthiness and attachment to the circle), and selective worldly exposure.
Some of the humane reforms have already been listed. Limited, but allowed, family contact is one. More important, however, would be the encouragement of in-circle relationships. In any oppressive system, one of the greatest bindings that keep people from fleeing isn't the chains, but the family members and attachments that would be left behind. While Templar-Mage relationships would be (justifiably) still a no-no, Mage-Chantry relationships would be more than tolerated: the Chantry workers, after all, are far more likely to be resistant to escape, and more of a velvet rope to keep the mage there.
Make the Circle a reasonable place to want to be. A place where you can have a family. Allow human relationships between mages. Trysts will happen regardless, and squelching romance will neither work or keep people stationary. Allowing the building of a life here, in the circle, is more likely to.
In terms of activities and cultural exposure, this has a point... but a focus would be even more effective. Mages should be allowed out of the circle for work/trips/visitations more frequently... but these (monitored) work trips and expeditions should focus on the worst aspects of the Free World. Mages, materially, live comfortable lives. They don't know poverty. They don't know crime. They don't know disease, or banditry. They don't know, personally, the common-folk, or their fears.
Focus, disproportionately, on these things. Organize plenty of mage work-retreats to the slums, the Alienages, the bandit-raided places and war zones. And, especially, the ruins where maleficar or abominations have killed people and done damage. Here they can do good: healing the sick, rebuilding, benign exercises and relief from the tedium of the circle. Here they can see the dangers, and damages, of mages and power and warfare, to quell naive, clean visions of righteous revolution. Here they can be exposed to the very sort of people who fear them, and may hate them for what their kind have done even as they try and help. Here they can see how much better off in so many ways they are than the poor, the helpless, the ones who don't live in the Circles.
Yes, show the mages the world. But be sure to show the warts most of all. Make them realize that Freedom isn't necessarily pretty, or comfortable, or pleasant. And it doesn't make the air any cleaner either.
Some other things that might be considered:
-Make the Rite of Annulment the Rite of Tranquility. Why kill when you can Tranquilize?
-Explore Tranquility more: if mages could be severed from their powers, but not their minds, the whole dynamic would change.
-For the really concerned: look into a system of delay-action poisons that require constant, Templar-provided antidotes to push off. Sort of a 'if you don't take this every three days, on the fourth day you will die/suffer tranquility/whatever'.
Systematically, more checks and balances would be better all around. Not only on the Templar side, to be able to restrain the rogue Merediths of the Order, but against the First Enchanters like Orsino deliberately stone walling valid Templar issues. Like protecting maleficars.
On the Templar side, a system by which an overzealous Templar Commander can be relieved as a formal proceeding (say, as a majority vote of five sub-commanders headed by the Vice-Commander) would allow lower-ranking Templars moderate, or press, the Knight Commander. On the Mage side, the First Enchanter can be overruled by the votes of the heads of the Fraternities, whose voting power is a matter of relative membership.
In a deadlock between either Knight Commander or First Enchanter, the Grand Cleric can act as a mediator. To avoid over-powering the mages, and giving too much temptation to manipulate the thoughts and mind of the Grand Cleric by mind-magic in order to assure a constant two-thirds majority, to overrule the Knight Commander the Mages need the aggreement of at least two of the five Templar sub-commanders, as a sign of significant concern/agreement within the Templars as well.
On a larger scale, mages could be democratically empowered (good for commitment into the system) and yet organizationally weakened by giving the Fraternities formal, as opposed to unofficial, recognition and involvement. A Mage Congress, only institutionalized, and with (king-making) Templar involvement as well: the Templars represent an ordered, organized faction (but with allowance for nuance), while the mages as a whole are divided, not unified, by their factional differences. Representation is determined by Fraternity size, and democratic moderation isolates and sidelines radicals. While the Mage Congress isn't all-powerful or decisive on its own, and can be overruled, giving mages an investment in the system will reduce the allure of revolution.
In practice of the Circles themselves, two major aspects deserve to be changed: humanity-conditioning (in terms of encouraging and supporting mental healthiness and attachment to the circle), and selective worldly exposure.
Some of the humane reforms have already been listed. Limited, but allowed, family contact is one. More important, however, would be the encouragement of in-circle relationships. In any oppressive system, one of the greatest bindings that keep people from fleeing isn't the chains, but the family members and attachments that would be left behind. While Templar-Mage relationships would be (justifiably) still a no-no, Mage-Chantry relationships would be more than tolerated: the Chantry workers, after all, are far more likely to be resistant to escape, and more of a velvet rope to keep the mage there.
Make the Circle a reasonable place to want to be. A place where you can have a family. Allow human relationships between mages. Trysts will happen regardless, and squelching romance will neither work or keep people stationary. Allowing the building of a life here, in the circle, is more likely to.
In terms of activities and cultural exposure, this has a point... but a focus would be even more effective. Mages should be allowed out of the circle for work/trips/visitations more frequently... but these (monitored) work trips and expeditions should focus on the worst aspects of the Free World. Mages, materially, live comfortable lives. They don't know poverty. They don't know crime. They don't know disease, or banditry. They don't know, personally, the common-folk, or their fears.
Focus, disproportionately, on these things. Organize plenty of mage work-retreats to the slums, the Alienages, the bandit-raided places and war zones. And, especially, the ruins where maleficar or abominations have killed people and done damage. Here they can do good: healing the sick, rebuilding, benign exercises and relief from the tedium of the circle. Here they can see the dangers, and damages, of mages and power and warfare, to quell naive, clean visions of righteous revolution. Here they can be exposed to the very sort of people who fear them, and may hate them for what their kind have done even as they try and help. Here they can see how much better off in so many ways they are than the poor, the helpless, the ones who don't live in the Circles.
Yes, show the mages the world. But be sure to show the warts most of all. Make them realize that Freedom isn't necessarily pretty, or comfortable, or pleasant. And it doesn't make the air any cleaner either.
Some other things that might be considered:
-Make the Rite of Annulment the Rite of Tranquility. Why kill when you can Tranquilize?
-Explore Tranquility more: if mages could be severed from their powers, but not their minds, the whole dynamic would change.
-For the really concerned: look into a system of delay-action poisons that require constant, Templar-provided antidotes to push off. Sort of a 'if you don't take this every three days, on the fourth day you will die/suffer tranquility/whatever'.
#123
Posté 29 mars 2011 - 03:50
Benchmark
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- Members
- 167 messages
Here is just a poorly thought out idea.
1. Maintain Circles as training centers for young mages. Continue to have Templars search for and identify mages that need to be sent to the circle.
2. Mages that have been fully trained by the circle and are deemed "no-threat" get assigned to a Chantry to work in the village or town. Each Chantry has a squad of Templars to oversee the one or two mages assigned to it.
3. Mages can have lives and associations in their villages, but always have to perform the duties and fall under the chain of command in the Chantry.
It sucks to be born into a job, but that's better than being born into execution in my book. For a lot of mages, it would probably be an improvement. From starving dirty 5th child of a potato farmer, to job security and respect as a symbol of the Chantry's dedication to protecting and serving people.
1. Maintain Circles as training centers for young mages. Continue to have Templars search for and identify mages that need to be sent to the circle.
2. Mages that have been fully trained by the circle and are deemed "no-threat" get assigned to a Chantry to work in the village or town. Each Chantry has a squad of Templars to oversee the one or two mages assigned to it.
3. Mages can have lives and associations in their villages, but always have to perform the duties and fall under the chain of command in the Chantry.
It sucks to be born into a job, but that's better than being born into execution in my book. For a lot of mages, it would probably be an improvement. From starving dirty 5th child of a potato farmer, to job security and respect as a symbol of the Chantry's dedication to protecting and serving people.
#124
Posté 29 mars 2011 - 04:16
Kinaori
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- Members
- 175 messages
They have to go to mage school, but sheesh don't take them away from their families and lock them up in a tower. You can even keep the templars as a check and balance, but there's no reason to turn them all into prisoners. A good happy upbringing is rather important to keep people from going blergity-blerg.
#125
Posté 29 mars 2011 - 04:30
OraVelnoria87
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- Members
- 80 messages
Just make the towers more like Hogwarts. Then it would be fun! Yays!
