251 réponses à ce sujet

[Danjaru]

Simple.

As magic is rightfully feared due to many turning to blood magic and doing dangerous stuff.

Give them freedom but keep training templars, and have 1 templar assigned to a mage and have like weekly checkups or random checkups from time to time. A type of Parole system but friendlier.

Modifié par Danjaru, 29 mars 2011 - 01:27 .

[dreman9999]

Danjaru wrote...

Simple.

As magic is rightfully feared due to many turning to blood magic and doing dangerous stuff.

Give them freedom but keep training templars, and have 1 templar assigned to a mage and have like weekly checkups or random checkups from time to time. A type of Parole system but friendlier.

That would never work.

[dreman9999]

3SG Sage wrote...

Some type of training program wshould be in place. The ability to track mages kept in place but more interaction with other "common" folk. Finally, borrow the Japanese idea against sucide by jumping in front of a train by holding the immediate family of a mage that does wrong with magic responsible as well as the mage.

That's even worse.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I think the College of Magi should be responsible for the control of mages and not the chantry. I think Templars could still be used expect they need to be under the control of the College of Magi vs The Chantry. This would be my solution. I think the College would be better in making the decisions on which mages are dangerous and can't control their magic and might lead into blood magic. Even Anders is against Blood Magic. Should we consider Wynne a Blood mage? Did Wynne willingly allow her spirit inside as Anders did?

I think all mages do need to be properly trained. I think once trained by the circles they should be able to lead productive lives outside of the circles. I never understood how Wilhelm was able to live in Honnealth (sp?) when doing Shale's quest. This was never explained. Wynne also leaves the circle in service to the Grey Wardens, did she just die or what happened to her after Awakenings? Mages are able to leave (escape the circle) in service to someone.

I think small children taken into the circle should have visitation with parents with Templars on duty during the visitation. The chantry caused alot of it's own problems in regards to not allowing contact with family. Why do mages once trained need to stay in the cirlce their whole lives?

[Danjaru]

dreman9999 wrote...

that would never work

And why wouldn't it? They'd keep tabs on the mages without oppressing and imprisoning them. Mages would still have to look out for dabbling in blood magic and making deals with demons when having a templar coming to visit.

There would be mages and maleficars, the maleficars are to be imprisoned, but normal mages could go about their lives.

[Camenae]

I don't get why the whole "mages can't visit their families" thing was put into the system, other than to make us hate the templars, of course.

From a policy standpoint it just doesn't make any sense. By all means we should encourage them to fall in love all over the place and visit their entire extended family as much as they want. Aside from it being just the right thing to do, everybody knows that the more somebody has to lose, the easier they are to control. And the goal of the templars is to control the mages, so I don't know why they would make all mages into people-with-nothing-to-lose since it's just making their jobs harder.

[Lithuasil]

I'd assume because the more a person wants something that isn't inside the circle, the more likely they are to flee. When there's nothing for them, outside the circles walls, why bother?

Now, relationships *inside* the circle, that's indeed something they should encourage.

[Estelindis]

Just an idea off the top of my head (haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been posted).

One or two templars would be assigned to stay with each mage. They would protect the mage from others (e.g. those prejudiced against mages or seeking to take advantage of them) and protect others from the mage (in case the mage falls to temptation or misuses magic). A certain part of each mage-and-templar-team's year would be dedicated to helping those who need it (e.g. magical healing for the poor), whether by travelling a certain route and helping those along the way or attaching themselves to a certain community for a time; another part would be spent working in a dedicated magical centre where they would research new magical possibilities or practise their skills (alone or with others of their professions); and the rest of the year they'd be able to go wherever they wanted (with some give-and-take between the templar(s) and the mage re. location, as they might have families).  The relationship I'm envisaging here would be a bit like that between Aes Sedai and Warders in the Wheel of Time (adapted for the disadvantages of magic in Thedas compared to Randland).

Unrealistic? Not enough of one thing or another? I don't know. But I'm thinking of this as still being part of the Circle, just a reformed version. 

Modifié par Estelindis, 29 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[Parrk]

Circle of Bacon.

Tell me I'm wrong....
you can't.

[hoorayforicecream]

Mahtisonni wrote...

1. Give mages better education than chantry regulated one.
2. Every city guard should be taught templar abilities. (Endless chain silence and dispel)
3. Allow mages to move relatively freely, but keep the phylactery system. Mage education should be made possible in all major cities, where they could be send to be schooled and not to live forever in.
4. Bring mages only to tower, if the town's citizens are religious bigots who hate all magic. It needs to be adoption not kidnapping.
5. Educate mages about blood magic instead of just saying "It's evil so don't" they need to come to the realization that using blood magic to court with demons is incredibly risky and even if you do survive the process with your sanity intact you've still signed your death warrant.
6. Mind control is a crime which should be punished by making the subject go through tranquility.
7. Mages should first and foremost be trained to heal others, a mage that cannot do this should never be trained to be used as a weapon.

A couple of problems with these:

1. Who would do the teaching? Right now the mages are being taught by other mages. Where would the "better" education come from? Who would determine it?
2. Templar powers come from Lyrium. There isn't enough of it to make every city guard a templar.
4. Who decides whether the town's citizens are religious bigots who hate all magic?
5. Teaching people that "You can get tremendous amounts of power if you sacrifice other people" may not be the best way to do it. Especially because the vast majority of people who *are* knowledgeable about blood magic have learned so by murdering people and consorting with demons.

The main issue is that the mages are human, and that means they have the same fallibilities as everyone else. A mage can just as easily be cruel, petty, jealous or vicious as kind, generous, loving or forgiving. The biggest problem is that mages suffer a unique weakness - they are far, far more susceptible to demonic possession than anyone, and the abominations are incredibly dangerous.

Any sort of mage solution would need to be self-sustainable. If the system requires the people in charge to be good, it falls apart as soon as that somebody in charge *isn't* good. There were plenty of templars in kirkwall who wanted to work with the mages like Thrask wanted, but it fell apart because Meredith was off her rocker.

[Dean_the_Young]

Camenae wrote...

I don't get why the whole "mages can't visit their families" thing was put into the system, other than to make us hate the templars, of course.

From a policy standpoint it just doesn't make any sense. By all means we should encourage them to fall in love all over the place and visit their entire extended family as much as they want. Aside from it being just the right thing to do, everybody knows that the more somebody has to lose, the easier they are to control. And the goal of the templars is to control the mages, so I don't know why they would make all mages into people-with-nothing-to-lose since it's just making their jobs harder.

It's less about family in and of itself, and more about ties external to the Circle. Mages who have family in contact outside of the Circle not only have a reason to dwell on escape, they have the means (a support network) to do so with.

It's the no-families-in-the-Circle attitude that is actually bizaar.

[Huntress]

Estelindis wrote...

Just an idea off the top of my head (haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been posted).

One or two templars would be assigned to stay with each mage. They would protect the mage from others (e.g. those prejudiced against mages or seeking to take advantage of them) and protect others from the mage (in case the mage falls to temptation or misuses magic). A certain part of each mage-and-templar-team's year would be dedicated to helping those who need it (e.g. magical healing for the poor), whether by travelling a certain route and helping those along the way or attaching themselves to a certain community for a time; another part would be spent working in a dedicated magical centre where they would research new magical possibilities or practise their skills (alone or with others of their professions); and the rest of the year they'd be able to go wherever they wanted (with some give-and-take between the templar(s) and the mage re. location, as they might have families).  The relationship I'm envisaging here would be a bit like that between Aes Sedai and Warders in the Wheel of Time (adapted for the disadvantages of magic in Thedas compared to Randland).

Unrealistic? Not enough of one thing or another? I don't know. But I'm thinking of this as still being part of the Circle, just a reformed version. 

Why should templar be guards? they can be or become just as corrupt as the one they are guarding. What if the templars are trying to kill  mages/you, they are 2 or more and you are 1 and they can say anything and get away with it.

Solution is do not separate people without reason or proves, the more you care for someone, the less you want to harm them, people will fight for many reason and the strongest one is to be free, and anything that happen in getting freedom is aceptable. Yes people dies but that is the price, either stop jailing innocents and force them to be tranquil or get killed.

Hate have been put in every citizen, templar and chantry followers freaks, they go to the same extreme as any mage and yet, not one complain about them.

[Huntress]

Lithuasil wrote...

I'd assume because the more a person wants something that isn't inside the circle, the more likely they are to flee. When there's nothing for them, outside the circles walls, why bother?

Now, relationships *inside* the circle, that's indeed something they should encourage.

The only thing that can't be found inside the circle is the freedom to be and do what ever you want, to live your life as you want. Will you live in a cell with your family and having 20 millions dollards under your bed?
You have money, a bed, family, and food,  do you really want to leave?

Me beeing in that possition i will send you to Hell, and ask you to keep the food/ money/bed and I'll leave with my family.

[Lithuasil]

As I've stated in another thread - quite a few people seem to overestimate how much fun life for an apostate is, and how much fun life for the average peasant in thedas is

[Estelindis]

Huntress wrote...

Why should templar be guards?

To protect everyone, mages included.  Was I unclear about that?

Huntress wrote...

they can be or become just as corrupt as the one they are guarding.

Assuming mages are corrupt at all (vs. just having the potential for corruption)...  Well, yes.  Of course they can, being human and fallible.  So can any body of guards, e.g. the city watch.  But such bodies are still needed.

Huntress wrote...

What if the templars are trying to kill  mages/you

I could just as easily ask what happens if the mage tries to kill the templar(s).  We saw both kinds of situations in DA2, including some mages who felt it would be just fine and dandy to kill the templar who was trying to help them. 

Huntress wrote...
they are 2 or more and you are 1 and they can say anything and get away with it.

Only if the defamation or death of a mage is not considered important.  But, if that's the case, we have little hope of getting anywhere in our theoretical organisation.  What we are trying to do here is examine alternatives.  In the alternative I'm looking at here, a mage's life would have to be seen as just as valuable as anyone else's.

Huntress wrote...

Solution is do not separate people without reason or proves, the more you care for someone, the less you want to harm them, people will fight for many reason and the strongest one is to be free, and anything that happen in getting freedom is aceptable. Yes people dies but that is the price, either stop jailing innocents and force them to be tranquil or get killed.

Hate have been put in every citizen, templar and chantry followers freaks, they go to the same extreme as any mage and yet, not one complain about them.

I don't mean to be unkind, but the clarity of your writing could be improved here.  I really have very little idea of what you're even trying to say, apart from "anything that happens in getting freedom is acceptable" - and I disagree with that sentiment profoundly.  Freedom is not simply all-or-nothing.  We are more or less free in a variety of different ways, depending on many factors.  Can anything be sacrificed for a small increase in a relatively minor freedom?  If so, society devolves into the absurd and most of our ethical standards lose meaning.

[Fortlowe]

There is really no simple answer to mages. Binding them as the Qunari do or imprisoning as humanity does doesn't work. They are reduced to animals or slaves, and left in an even weaker state to fight off the very threat these measures are meant to 'protect' them and everyone else from. And some of them still escape and become abominations.

The Imperium's system of freeing the mages 'works' apperently, because there's no lore concerning rampant demons and abominations laying waste to Tevinter. However, that system sucks for anybody that isn't a mage.

The closest I have come to a solution is establishing a massive and permanent presence in the Fade itself to monitor the spirits rather then the mages they often inhabit. An order of Templar Mages that are trained for this task from the time their powers manifest then live their entire adult lives within the Fade. The lyrium necessary, not to mention the personal sacrifice these mages would have to make, could likely be prohibitavley substantial, though. However, like many things, I think if the monetary value of lyrium was discarded, much could be accomplished to both pacify magic and make Thedas a kinder gentler Blight ridden bloodbath.

[TEWR]

I've said it before. I'll say it again.

Mage's Collective.

They keep an account of all the free mages, tolerate no maleficarum, and have the freedom all mages deserve minus all the Tevinteriness.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've said it before. I'll say it again.

Mage's Collective.

They keep an account of all the free mages, tolerate no maleficarum, and have the freedom all mages deserve minus all the Tevinteriness.

It works until ambitious mages take over. Besides, if you were a kingdom's ruler, would you really trust a bunch of people within or near your borders who don't answer to you and can kill you with their brains?

[Weskerr]

Everyone is unequal in ability and capability, but everyone should be equal under the law.  Everyone should be given a fair and equal chance in the game of life.

Modifié par Weskerr, 31 mars 2011 - 07:08 .

[Eollodwyn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Camenae wrote...

I don't get why the whole "mages can't visit their families" thing was put into the system, other than to make us hate the templars, of course.

From a policy standpoint it just doesn't make any sense. By all means we should encourage them to fall in love all over the place and visit their entire extended family as much as they want. Aside from it being just the right thing to do, everybody knows that the more somebody has to lose, the easier they are to control. And the goal of the templars is to control the mages, so I don't know why they would make all mages into people-with-nothing-to-lose since it's just making their jobs harder.

It's less about family in and of itself, and more about ties external to the Circle. Mages who have family in contact outside of the Circle not only have a reason to dwell on escape, they have the means (a support network) to do so with.

It's the no-families-in-the-Circle attitude that is actually bizaar.

If I recall correctly, Gaider said that they were discouraged from forming strong interpersonal attachments because that would be one more thing a demon could use against you.  After all, Connor was possessed because he asked for a demon's help in healing his father.

[TEWR]

new idea:

Move all the mages into one country and make it so that non-mages cannot live there.

New mage is born? Send him to Mageland (Tevinter, but first you need to get rid of the slavery thing)!

[LobselVith8]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

No need. Circle of Magi is destroyed. Old news. Guess we just get to wait and see what comes next.

Maybe once all the extremists kill each other, the smoke clears and only the sensible people are left an actual solution can be discussed and quiet possibly put into effect.

But what ended up happening to the Circle is proof enough that it was not a viable solution to the problem.

Clearly, the Chantry controlled Circles failed.

[sphinxess]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've said it before. I'll say it again.

Mage's Collective.

They keep an account of all the free mages, tolerate no maleficarum, and have the freedom all mages deserve minus all the Tevinteriness.

It works until ambitious mages take over. Besides, if you were a kingdom's ruler, would you really trust a bunch of people within or near your borders who don't answer to you and can kill you with their brains?

Hmmm  if I was a ruler I would rather have some mages among my forces than a strong outside force that answers only to the Chantry running around in my country doing as they please.

Modifié par sphinxess, 16 avril 2011 - 03:18 .

[corebit]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

new idea:

Move all the mages into one country and make it so that non-mages cannot live there.

New mage is born? Send him to Mageland (Tevinter, but first you need to get rid of the slavery thing)!

Then one day, that country full of mages decides to invade your country and make slaves out of you
And you get Tevinter 2.0

Modifié par corebit, 16 avril 2011 - 03:28 .

[Plaintiff]

Too easy.

1) Spread out - Instead of keeping the mages in one central location per province, establish schools in every major settlement. Not boarding schools, regular schools with boarding available as an option. Also allow for the hiring of tutors for those who wish their children to receive private instruction. For boarded students, allow family and friends to visit at request, and allow regular vacations.

2) Empowerment - Instead of treating magic as a curse and alienating mages from society, empower them to see their talents as a gift, teach them how it can be used to help people. Allow them time to play and talk to non-mages. Minors would do so in a supervised capacity, with a senior mage in attendance. Older students would be free to go out on their own. 

3) Education - Teach mages the dangers of the fade, and how to resist demons. Don't blindside mages with the Harrowing, it only ensures that more of them will fail.

4) Graduation - Once a mage's training is complete, they should be free to leave the Circle indefinitely.

5) Disassociate from the Chantry - The Chantry is biased against magic and mages and as such should not be allowed to have power over them. Remove Chantry influence from the Circles, break their monopoly on Lyrium by legitimizing organizations such as the Mages Collective and establish a non-Chantry affiliated Templar corps that mages can join.

6) Allow mages to hold titles - Stripping a mage child of a title they would otherwise rightfully inherit is just giving noble families further incentive to hide any mage children they might have.

7) Presume innocence - The constant presence of templars creates a tense and unhealthy environment for young mages. Templars should have their own quarters, separate from the Circle and should be called in when, and only when there are reports of mages breaking the law.