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[EmperorSahlertz]

A lot of suggestions here completely disregards the fact that Thedas is a medieval world, and comes up with ideas about task forces, allowing mages free reigns and whatnot. So when a mage goes crazy (and they will go crazy) in the province of godknowswhere on mister where-the-hell-am-I's farm, when exactly will the vaunted Templar task force respond? 2-3 months after the incident, and after a lot of people have died. Not a great respond time.
There is a very important reason why all mages are hauled up in the same few places.

[Deified Data]

For non-mages: mass-Tranquility

For mages: dominate the normal people of Thedas and create a new magocracy.

There's no "easy" solution. Mages deserve to be free, just as Thedas deserves to be free of mages. One side must inevitably dominate the other.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A lot of suggestions here completely disregards the fact that Thedas is a medieval world, and comes up with ideas about task forces, allowing mages free reigns and whatnot.

You mean alternatives to the current system that lead to a mage revolution in all the surviving Circles of Magi? Considering that the Chantry controlled Circles are no longer governed by the Chantry and the templars broke free to hunt the mages, I don't see why you think the system should be kept in place when it imploded.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So when a mage goes crazy (and they will go crazy) in the province of godknowswhere on mister where-the-hell-am-I's farm, when exactly will the vaunted Templar task force respond?

The alternatives proposed addressed having local law enforcement who are capable of dealing with the threat.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
 
There is a very important reason why all mages are hauled up in the same few places.

And people addressed very important reasons why a system that denies mages basic rights and has a religious order that preaches that mages are cursed is a flawed system of governing mages and magic, especially when we see abominations result time and again from the Chantry controlled Circles.

[Vicious]

Kill em all, let the maker sort em out.

[fusilero1]

Go with the Isolationist Viewpoint i.e. all go to an island and live out as magical hermits. They can probably conquer Par Vollen from the Qunari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A lot of suggestions here completely disregards the fact that Thedas is a medieval world, and comes up with ideas about task forces, allowing mages free reigns and whatnot.

You mean alternatives to the current system that lead to a mage revolution in all the surviving Circles of Magi? Considering that the Chantry controlled Circles are no longer governed by the Chantry and the templars broke free to hunt the mages, I don't see why you think the system should be kept in place when it imploded.

Rebellion can and will happen in all kinds of society. No matter how you build a society up, someone somewhere will always breed malcontent. For instance your dfream system of "free mages" caused a rebellion mere days into its inception. Just not from the mages, so that makes it okay I guess.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So when a mage goes crazy (and they will go crazy) in the province of godknowswhere on mister where-the-hell-am-I's farm, when exactly will the vaunted Templar task force respond?

The alternatives proposed addressed having local law enforcement who are capable of dealing with the threat.

Unfeasible. Lyrium is a rare commodity, and extremely expensive. You cannot expect a small village to be able to afford lyrium, let alone training facilities.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
 
There is a very important reason why all mages are hauled up in the same few places.

And people addressed very important reasons why a system that denies mages basic rights and has a religious order that preaches that mages are cursed is a flawed system of governing mages and magic, especially when we see abominations result time and again from the Chantry controlled Circles.

We see Abominations resulting from a free mage just as often. So what is your point? That no matter how you deal with mages, some will always turn into abominations?

[uanime5]

Alternatives to the Circle of Magi are as follows:
Circle of Apostates
Circle of Maleficar
Circle of Abominations
Circle of Arcane Horrors

Given that demons seem capable of thought and speaking, as are humans, why do abominations always seem so mindless?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rebellion can and will happen in all kinds of society. No matter how you build a society up, someone somewhere will always breed malcontent. For instance your dfream system of "free mages" caused a rebellion mere days into its inception. Just not from the mages, so that makes it okay I guess.

The mages are living in a dictatorship. That's precisely what the Circles of Magi are, and even what dev Michael Hamilton called them. Dictatorships have a habit of breading malcontent.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Unfeasible. Lyrium is a rare commodity, and extremely expensive. You cannot expect a small village to be able to afford lyrium, let alone training facilities.

That must explain the templars we see in Lothering with the Revered Mother.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We see Abominations resulting from a free mage just as often. So what is your point? That no matter how you deal with mages, some will always turn into abominations?

That putting mages into prisons where they will likely struggle against the dictatorship they are placed in will cause problems, which is why the Warden faced an army of abominations in "A Broken Circle."

[TEWR]

corebit wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

new idea:

Move all the mages into one country and make it so that non-mages cannot live there.

New mage is born? Send him to Mageland (Tevinter, but first you need to get rid of the slavery thing)!

Then one day, that country full of mages decides to invade your country and make slaves out of you
And you get Tevinter 2.0

not if you keep the Templars. That way if they do anything, the Templars can be used.

Mind Control takes a lot of blood. Without slaves, they're forced to either:

A) severely damage themselves, which means they might die soon or can be killed easier.
Kill other mages, which reduces their numbers.

which then forces them to use basic magic, which Templars can render useless.

[_Aine_]

My problem, ok one of my problems, with the Circle was that it condensed an entire being into living solely about their magic. So, they have some extra talents and abilities ( and perhaps susceptibilities) but what if Billy-Joe the little mage really dreamed of being a cheese-maker and dairy farmer? Anything that defines a person so rigidly in narrow scope also builds that persons eventual desire to free themself from that narrow definition.

How about education. Teaching responsibility and ownership of your effect on other people to ALL residents in general and not placing the whole onus of good and bad on the mages alone.

Of course, magic can be used poorly and there needs to be safe-guards for that. But a good way to start is to give the mages a real life outside their skills. Allow them to flourish outside of magic, or with magic just a part of them... To see magic as a gift for the good of their people as a whole and not something shameful and feared. But, that is too easy to not be difficult.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A lot of suggestions here completely disregards the fact that Thedas is a medieval world, and comes up with ideas about task forces, allowing mages free reigns and whatnot. So when a mage goes crazy (and they will go crazy) in the province of godknowswhere on mister where-the-hell-am-I's farm, when exactly will the vaunted Templar task force respond? 2-3 months after the incident, and after a lot of people have died. Not a great respond time.
There is a very important reason why all mages are hauled up in the same few places.

Thedas is not a midaeval world.  Thedas is a fantasy world much in the same way that Middle-Earth, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk (Oerth), and Ebberon are all fantasy worlds just to name a few.  Did you check out the cute chicks in Templar armor acting as full members of the Templar Knighthood?  Never happen in a midaeveal world.  In DAO at least did you miss your male Warden and Zev openly kissing in the street with no one calling for a lynching?  Never happen in your midaeval world.

The idea then that Thedas has to be a midaeval world when it suits your view of magic, but is modern when it doesn't is the worst sort of conceit.  The fact is like most other Fantasy worlds, Thedas is a modern world (where magic largely replaces technogy) with a feudal-looking backdrop but little more.

-Polaris

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I keep hearing on the forums about Mage freedom and how mages deserve to be treated like everybody else, now let's see what you've got. Name me a better alternative to the Circle of Magi, I've heard quite a few arguments in other threads and I'd like to see what a more condensed topic can create.

District of Magi. Mages living in walled-off communities just like the city elves.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 16 avril 2011 - 11:57 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A lot of suggestions here completely disregards the fact that Thedas is a medieval world, and comes up with ideas about task forces, allowing mages free reigns and whatnot. So when a mage goes crazy (and they will go crazy) in the province of godknowswhere on mister where-the-hell-am-I's farm, when exactly will the vaunted Templar task force respond? 2-3 months after the incident, and after a lot of people have died. Not a great respond time.
There is a very important reason why all mages are hauled up in the same few places.

Thedas is not a midaeval world.  Thedas is a fantasy world much in the same way that Middle-Earth, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk (Oerth), and Ebberon are all fantasy worlds just to name a few.  Did you check out the cute chicks in Templar armor acting as full members of the Templar Knighthood?  Never happen in a midaeveal world.  In DAO at least did you miss your male Warden and Zev openly kissing in the street with no one calling for a lynching?  Never happen in your midaeval world.

The idea then that Thedas has to be a midaeval world when it suits your view of magic, but is modern when it doesn't is the worst sort of conceit.  The fact is like most other Fantasy worlds, Thedas is a modern world (where magic largely replaces technogy) with a feudal-looking backdrop but little more.

-Polaris

So rulership, level of technology, architecure, the fact that countries in Thedas are fantasy counterparts of those in real life etc., you all ignore?

[TEWR]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A lot of suggestions here completely disregards the fact that Thedas is a medieval world, and comes up with ideas about task forces, allowing mages free reigns and whatnot. So when a mage goes crazy (and they will go crazy) in the province of godknowswhere on mister where-the-hell-am-I's farm, when exactly will the vaunted Templar task force respond? 2-3 months after the incident, and after a lot of people have died. Not a great respond time.
There is a very important reason why all mages are hauled up in the same few places.

Thedas is not a midaeval world.  Thedas is a fantasy world much in the same way that Middle-Earth, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk (Oerth), and Ebberon are all fantasy worlds just to name a few.  Did you check out the cute chicks in Templar armor acting as full members of the Templar Knighthood?  Never happen in a midaeveal world.  In DAO at least did you miss your male Warden and Zev openly kissing in the street with no one calling for a lynching?  Never happen in your midaeval world.

The idea then that Thedas has to be a midaeval world when it suits your view of magic, but is modern when it doesn't is the worst sort of conceit.  The fact is like most other Fantasy worlds, Thedas is a modern world (where magic largely replaces technogy) with a feudal-looking backdrop but little more.

-Polaris

So rulership, level of technology, architecure, the fact that countries in Thedas are fantasy counterparts of those in real life etc., you all ignore?

It may have some medieval qualities in its universe, but that does not make it a medieval world

[IanPolaris]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

So rulership, level of technology, architecure, the fact that countries in Thedas are fantasy counterparts of those in real life etc., you all ignore?

Not ignore, simply put into perspective.  The fact is that social attitudes even within the game are not midaeval, and certain rights are assumed along with the notion of fair trials (except of course for mages) that aren't midaeval either.

Sure the Kingdom of Fereldan may look like a kingdom, but it seems to operate like a republic and gives citizens rights that we'd expect in a Western democracy.  The other places we see are similar.

That's not a knock on Dragon Age.  Almost all fantasy worlds are like this....but don't go calling Thedas a Midaeval world just to support your argument about one tiny slice of it!  It's emphatically not.  [The technology and architecture are also backdrops.  They also don't make it a midaeval world.]

-Polaris

[Uzzy]

IanPolaris wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

So rulership, level of technology, architecure, the fact that countries in Thedas are fantasy counterparts of those in real life etc., you all ignore?

Not ignore, simply put into perspective.  The fact is that social attitudes even within the game are not midaeval, and certain rights are assumed along with the notion of fair trials (except of course for mages) that aren't midaeval either.

Sure the Kingdom of Fereldan may look like a kingdom, but it seems to operate like a republic and gives citizens rights that we'd expect in a Western democracy.  The other places we see are similar.

That's not a knock on Dragon Age.  Almost all fantasy worlds are like this....but don't go calling Thedas a Midaeval world just to support your argument about one tiny slice of it!  It's emphatically not.  [The technology and architecture are also backdrops.  They also don't make it a midaeval world.]

-Polaris

The only social attitude that's different from medieval times is no one cares if you're a woman or gay. And even that's not totally true, see the Qunari. You've got everything else from racism, slavery and quite horrific dictatorships.

Fair trials? I seem to recall, as the Commander of the Grey, quite arbitrarily deciding if people lived or died for minor crimes, with no lawyers or right of appeal.

Democracy? Since when did anyone in Thedas vote for their leader?

In short, you're entirely wrong. Again.

[Uzzy]

As for the question in the Opening Post, I think a better alternative to the Circle of Magi might be bringing in His Imperial Majesty's Holy Inquisition to deal with them. I can't be the only one who sees the similarities between the Mages on Thedas and Psykers in 40k, can I? Hard to control, forever at danger of possession, drawing power from a dream like world and heavily oppressed?

[Fruit of the Doom]

Aren't they really more like "Cylinders of Magi"?

I mean, they are in towers...

[Kasces]

Utter Magocracy. Damn the non-mages!

[TEWR]

 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mai 2012 - 04:52 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the Circle of Magi is probably the best solution. It just needs a little reform. It's worth noting that the Circle in Kirkwall failed largely because it wasn't functioning like it should have. The Templars had become too powerful for their role and had become corrupt and abusive. It's why I thought the incident in Kirkwall causing all Circles everywhere else was kind of a stretch.

A better solution would probably be one where mages are allowed a little more freedom and leniency but also one that polices itself better. Given that the Seekers are supposed to police the Templars, you' think they might have taken a more active role in the problems in Kirkwall. Many of the Templars were breaking Chantry law, and Meredith was assuming roles of governing that really should have fallen outside those of her station. Of course she took them as a result of the Temlars prior to her rule being too apathetic in the face of a brutal tyrant, so there likely needs to be a middle ground that works well for all invovled.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 avril 2011 - 02:04 .

[IanPolaris]

Uzzy wrote...
The only social attitude that's different from medieval times is no one cares if you're a woman or gay. And even that's not totally true, see the Qunari. You've got everything else from racism, slavery and quite horrific dictatorships.

There is a lot more than that.  The entire socal dynamic is different from a midaeval society.

Fair trials? I seem to recall, as the Commander of the Grey, quite arbitrarily deciding if people lived or died for minor crimes, with no lawyers or right of appeal.

Actually these were major crimes that had already been appealed.  The Commander of the Grey was the only one in Amarthine with the right to High Justice and the session was called because one of your nobles insisted on a speedy appeal.  Note too that by law both parties had the chance to present their cases and then you decided (and presumably they could appeal to the king).  Very much unlike a real midaeval court where the Arl (if you were lucky often as not it was his seneschal) made an arbitary decision often with no testimony taken.

Also people assume in the very frameworks such things as free speak, property rights, immunity from search and seizure and many other rights unheard of in a real midaeval society.

I am not complaining about this. Almost all FANTASY worlds are like this, but it's NOT a midaeval world.

Democracy? Since when did anyone in Thedas vote for their leader?

Did I say democracy?  No.  I said REPUBLIC and the Landsmeet in Fereldan acts very much like a defacto Republican Senate.  In any event, it's not the government type that makes a society midaeval or not.  It's the social attitudes and social assumptions which in Thedas (like most other fantasy worlds) are thourougly modern.

In short, you're entirely wrong. Again.

In short no I am not.  Again.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rebellion can and will happen in all kinds of society. No matter how you build a society up, someone somewhere will always breed malcontent. For instance your dfream system of "free mages" caused a rebellion mere days into its inception. Just not from the mages, so that makes it okay I guess.

The mages are living in a dictatorship. That's precisely what the Circles of Magi are, and even what dev Michael Hamilton called them. Dictatorships have a habit of breading malcontent.

Dictatorship is not inheritly bad. Dictatorships only breed malcontent in the ones who want power, but can't have it.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Unfeasible. Lyrium is a rare commodity, and extremely expensive. You cannot expect a small village to be able to afford lyrium, let alone training facilities.

That must explain the templars we see in Lothering with the Revered Mother.

Do you honestly believe they were recruited and trained in Lothering? Really?

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We see Abominations resulting from a free mage just as often. So what is your point? That no matter how you deal with mages, some will always turn into abominations?

That putting mages into prisons where they will likely struggle against the dictatorship they are placed in will cause problems, which is why the Warden faced an army of abominations in "A Broken Circle."

About dictatorship, see my first point. About the abominations. We also get a lot of Abominations as a direct result of mages being free. How do you defend that?

[d friendly]

Here's the thing we know the Circle is supposed to be a means of preventing Abominations (and blood mages, but I don't have issue with the tool, just the use), but it is obviously flawed. Look at Kirkwall and the rate of mages turning into abominations (and bloodmages, remember how hard it was to get that specialty in DAO?) and imagine for one moment that the Tevinter Imperium with its free/dominant mages is supposed to be much worse. How could Tevinter possibly survive? So what the circle actually does is create a lot of weak abominations (which are killed), hoping that none of them are strong enough to cause trouble.

I think the Circle is barely better than being a Sarabaas, considering that as a mage you are clearly subhuman considering the ease that mages get turned tranquil or killed.

Modifié par d friendly, 17 avril 2011 - 04:11 .