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[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the Circle in Kirkwall is supposed to be a special case. The Templars there had become abusive because they had become too powerful and had an overzealous paranoid Knight Commander. Saarebas are bound and abused and are constantly supposed to be in the presence of an Arvaraad or anyone who watches over them. Even being briefly unsupervised by them appears to be grounds for execution. That's way worse than what mages face in Chantry controlled lands. Mages aren't supposed to have their mouths sew shut or be constantly physically bound in the Circle.

[Sabariel]

A better alternative? Hogwarts.

An even better alternative? World domination.

Modifié par Sabariel, 17 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[d friendly]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think the Circle in Kirkwall is supposed to be a special case. The Templars there had become abusive because they had become too powerful and had an overzealous paranoid Knight Commander. Saarebas are bound and abused and are constantly supposed to be in the presence of an Arvaraad or anyone who watches over them. Even being briefly unsupervised by them appears to be grounds for execution. That's way worse than what mages face in Chantry controlled lands. Mages aren't supposed to have their mouths sew shut or be constantly physically bound in the Circle.

I did acknowledge that being a Circle mage is better, I just don't think it is by a lot. The thing is, while Kirkwall might be a special case, it certainly wasn't noticably so to people who should know. Leliana, special agent of the Chantry, knew enough to set a trap for some suspected rebelious mages, but apparently couldn't bother to look into abuse from the Templars. The local head of the Chantry (forgot her name), despite being supposedly being a living saint, or nearly so, turned a blind eye to the behavior of the Templars and the Knight Commander even though she was ostensibly in charge/responsible. Clearly, normal is indistuishable from crazy, when it comes to the Chantry's relationship to mages.

[Paraxial]

IanPolaris wrote...

[dp]

I don't think double penetration is going to solve anything.

[hoorayforicecream]

d friendly wrote...

I did acknowledge that being a Circle mage is better, I just don't think it is by a lot. The thing is, while Kirkwall might be a special case, it certainly wasn't noticably so to people who should know. Leliana, special agent of the Chantry, knew enough to set a trap for some suspected rebelious mages, but apparently couldn't bother to look into abuse from the Templars. The local head of the Chantry (forgot her name), despite being supposedly being a living saint, or nearly so, turned a blind eye to the behavior of the Templars and the Knight Commander even though she was ostensibly in charge/responsible. Clearly, normal is indistuishable from crazy, when it comes to the Chantry's relationship to mages.

Part of that is the first enchanter's fault. Nobody is better qualified to police the mages than the mages themselves. The biggest issue is when the first enchanter spends all his time trying to convince people to leave the mages alone. Orsino's problem was even pointed out in his codex entry: 

The Codex wrote...

Orsino is determined to make life better for his charges by standing up to Meredith and demonstrating that the Circle can act for the good of the people. As both a Mage and an Elf
he understands how fear leads to oppression. His zeal in this regard,
however, has perhaps made him too willing to excuse the transgressions
of his initiates as a consequence.

It's a vicious cycle, but there's more than enough blame to go around on both sides. There certainly were maleficar hiding in the circle, and they should have been found out and punished. That's part of what the first enchanter is supposed to do.

[TEWR]

Bible Doctor wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

[dp]

I don't think double penetration is going to solve anything.

GODDAMMIT once again my laptop's keyboard is drinking my Gatorade!

[The Big Nothing]

Oppression only breeds revolution. Imprison someone for what they've done, not what they could do.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 17 avril 2011 - 06:03 .

[Sabariel]

Bible Doctor wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

[dp]

I don't think double penetration is going to solve anything.

[aaniadyen]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

d friendly wrote...

I did acknowledge that being a Circle mage is better, I just don't think it is by a lot. The thing is, while Kirkwall might be a special case, it certainly wasn't noticably so to people who should know. Leliana, special agent of the Chantry, knew enough to set a trap for some suspected rebelious mages, but apparently couldn't bother to look into abuse from the Templars. The local head of the Chantry (forgot her name), despite being supposedly being a living saint, or nearly so, turned a blind eye to the behavior of the Templars and the Knight Commander even though she was ostensibly in charge/responsible. Clearly, normal is indistuishable from crazy, when it comes to the Chantry's relationship to mages.

Part of that is the first enchanter's fault. Nobody is better qualified to police the mages than the mages themselves. The biggest issue is when the first enchanter spends all his time trying to convince people to leave the mages alone. Orsino's problem was even pointed out in his codex entry: 

The Codex wrote...

Orsino is determined to make life better for his charges by standing up to Meredith and demonstrating that the Circle can act for the good of the people. As both a Mage and an Elf
he understands how fear leads to oppression. His zeal in this regard,
however, has perhaps made him too willing to excuse the transgressions
of his initiates as a consequence.

It's a vicious cycle, but there's more than enough blame to go around on both sides. There certainly were maleficar hiding in the circle, and they should have been found out and punished. That's part of what the first enchanter is supposed to do.

This. Back in Origins, when Jowan was revealed to be a blood mage it was a huge deal. If irving ever caught wind of blood magic you can bet the templars are the first people he'd go to. Orsino and the templars were simply incompetant. Orsino was incompetant in letting his charges do basically whatever they wnated as long as the templars don't catch them. The templars, because they were so blind that even holding all their mages in a veritible prison, they couldn't tell that most of the mages held inside were practicing blood magic. Including their first enchanter. The whole situation would have been prevented if anyone in the place had any sense.

Of course this didn't stop them from scrapping all sense from the situation and using it to somehow spark uprisings in circles everywhere which will doubtlessly result in a system far worse that will work far better because "It's what the fans want"

Modifié par aaniadyen, 17 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[The Big Nothing]

In Kirkwall, the Templars were overbearing and the mages incompetent.

[Orome1988]

How about build an arl for mages and their families but keep the templars? If you have the templars and all the mages together it will be easy to watch and find blood mages since you can have mages trained to work with the templars to find possessed mages and blood mages and fight them. They can live normal lives and even have their families but still be watched by the templars since if it is a smaller arl that is surrounded by templar fortresses and patrols they can be watched while still having their freedom. So make the templars like an army/police force specifically to watch them.

[SkittlesKat96]

 Honestly I have no ideas for alternatives to the Circle, I think the Circle is a good idea, I just think there needs to be less restrictions and more compromise.

I sided with the mages in DA 2 because Anders destroyed any chance of compromise and I wanted to stop Meredith from having all the mages killed (Bethany went to the Circle in my game too which was another reason, I didn't want innocent mages being killed)

[IanPolaris]

Getting back to the original question, it is completely moot. The circle system is dead. Kaput. Gone. Finito....and it ain't ever coming back.

If the mages win (or at least gain an alliance with secular powers which is what I believe will happen), then the mages will no longer tolerate a religious authority having total control over them and they certainly won't tolerate having no say in how magic is regulated (but most of the reasonable ones will say that magic should be regulated).

If the mages lose, then the Templars/Chantry will kill or tranquil all mages...and make the Qunari treatment of mages look like a walk down the primerose path.

Either way, the circle is GONE so the question is completely moot.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

It may not be in effect right now. But it can be reborn, so the point is not moot. Especially not now when the question, of how magic should be handled, is present.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It may not be in effect right now. But it can be reborn, so the point is not moot. Especially not now when the question, of how magic should be handled, is present.

It's completely moot.  The mages would rather die than return to the system as it was.  That is made very clear.  That being so, the question is moot.  Either there will be a new system or all mages will die/be tranquiled.

-Polaris

[allankles]

scyphozoa wrote...

I've never understood why a mage-run circle doesn't or cannot exist. It just devolves into power-mongering?

Simply put, mages should be able to police themselves, maintain mandatory training and education for mages and do so indepedently of the Chantry. Magic is the responsibility of mages, not the responsibility of nosey religious people.

You hit the nail on the head. Mages should regulate mages. And they'd probably be already doing that if the power hungry theocracy that is the Chantry didn't stick their nose in an issue that was beyond their ken.

A school for mages run by philosopher/warrior mages would be ideal, like a Jedi order. The Templar run Circle of Magi is like the Vatican controlling and restricting telepaths and telekinetics - it simply isn't within their jurisdiction.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It may not be in effect right now. But it can be reborn, so the point is not moot. Especially not now when the question, of how magic should be handled, is present.

It's completely moot.  The mages would rather die than return to the system as it was.  That is made very clear.  That being so, the question is moot.  Either there will be a new system or all mages will die/be tranquiled.

-Polaris

Who made this very clear? Where?

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 17 avril 2011 - 11:34 .

[Uzzy]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Uzzy wrote...
The only social attitude that's different from medieval times is no one cares if you're a woman or gay. And even that's not totally true, see the Qunari. You've got everything else from racism, slavery and quite horrific dictatorships.
[/quote]

There is a lot more than that.  The entire socal dynamic is different from a midaeval society.
[/quote]

Hardly.

[quote][quote]
Fair trials? I seem to recall, as the Commander of the Grey, quite arbitrarily deciding if people lived or died for minor crimes, with no lawyers or right of appeal.
[/quote]
[quote]
Actually these were major crimes that had already been appealed.  The Commander of the Grey was the only one in Amarthine with the right to High Justice and the session was called because one of your nobles insisted on a speedy appeal.  Note too that by law both parties had the chance to present their cases and then you decided (and presumably they could appeal to the king).  Very much unlike a real midaeval court where the Arl (if you were lucky often as not it was his seneschal) made an arbitary decision often with no testimony taken.

Also people assume in the very frameworks such things as free speak, property rights, immunity from search and seizure and many other rights unheard of in a real midaeval society.

I am not complaining about this. Almost all FANTASY worlds are like this, but it's NOT a midaeval world.

[/quote][/quote]

No, the Nobles got a certain kind of justice. That's all, and even that was aribtrary based on your decision, as the Arl of the area. You could execute a deserter and a thief, hardly major crimes, with next to no testimony and no right of appeal. All you heard of their crimes was a momentary statement by the criminals, and the Senschal

[quote][quote]
Democracy? Since when did anyone in Thedas vote for their leader?
[/quote]
[quote]
Did I say democracy?  No.  I said REPUBLIC and the Landsmeet in Fereldan acts very much like a defacto Republican Senate.  In any event, it's not the government type that makes a society midaeval or not.  It's the social attitudes and social assumptions which in Thedas (like most other fantasy worlds) are thourougly modern.

[/quote][/quote]

Hardly. At very best, it acts more like the Elector Counts of the Holy Roman Empire. The nobles come together and vote on a successor. Did the Landsmeet vote on the successor to King Meric? We don't know, but I'd be surprised if they did. That would have been a hereditary succession, simple as.

Orlais, likewise, seems to be a hereditary monarchy. Antiva and the Anderfels have kings, for instance. Nothing like a republican senate.


[quote][quote]
In short, you're entirely wrong. Again.

[/quote]
[quote]
In short no I am not.  Again.

-Polaris[/quote][/quote]

No, you're trying far to hard to find modern parallels to support your viewpoint on mages. It's entirely wrong.

Modifié par Uzzy, 17 avril 2011 - 11:37 .

[allankles]

Like the Jedi and Force, Mages are superior beings, of course, trying to pretend that they're not incredibly powerful and by extension meant for greater things than most, is human folly at it's height. This doesn't translate to political power (since that requires vision and character in an individual), but it translates to heroism in general.

I feel sorry for the Mages in DA, what a ****ty continent Thedas is for them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It may not be in effect right now. But it can be reborn, so the point is not moot. Especially not now when the question, of how magic should be handled, is present.

It's completely moot.  The mages would rather die than return to the system as it was.  That is made very clear.  That being so, the question is moot.  Either there will be a new system or all mages will die/be tranquiled.

-Polaris

Is it now? Speculation on your part. Not exactly endearing how you constantly try and spew your speculations as gospel.

In any case... I'll humor you, lets say that (most) of the current mages won't live in a circle ever again. What about the enxt generation? They will have to live somewhere, and if the Templars win, that might very well be a reborn Circle system. The Templars don't want to kill all mages, they want to control all mages.

[allankles]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It may not be in effect right now. But it can be reborn, so the point is not moot. Especially not now when the question, of how magic should be handled, is present.

It's completely moot.  The mages would rather die than return to the system as it was.  That is made very clear.  That being so, the question is moot.  Either there will be a new system or all mages will die/be tranquiled.

-Polaris

Is it now? Speculation on your part. Not exactly endearing how you constantly try and spew your speculations as gospel.

In any case... I'll humor you, lets say that (most) of the current mages won't live in a circle ever again. What about the enxt generation? They will have to live somewhere, and if the Templars win, that might very well be a reborn Circle system. The Templars don't want to kill all mages, they want to control all mages.

That just goes back to oppression.

[ashez2ashes]

I think they should set up some kind of public servant situation for the mages. The Chant of Light does say mages are supposed to "serve man". They're not serving anyone locked up all the time. If they got out once in awhile and felt like they had a purpose in life and a way to prove their merit a lot less of them would go nuts. Mages could help heal the sick and injured, improve crops, help build roads, etc.

Templars would still have to watch over them, but they could let the amount of freedoms they'e allowed based on individual merit.

[The Closet Geek]

The problem with the Circle as it stands is that it's all stick and no carrot.  Anyone with an iota of understanding about human behaviour can see that this is a broken system that won't last.

Forget ideals about freedom and self-determination.  Let's talk pragmatically.  Yes, a mage, particularly an untrained one, is far more dangerous than your average Joe.  Unchecked, those with fewer scruples will abuse their powers, make no mistake (and they don't even need demons or blood magic to do it.)  Leaving the mages to police themselves is unwise, however - all it takes is one particularly charismatic bastard saying "they did it to us first" or "we're naturally superior, it's our right to rule," and you're barrelling towards another Tevinter.  Don't scoff, it's happened countless times throughout our history.

The problem with imprisoning the many to prevent the abuses of the few, though, is that it breeds resentment, desperation and anger.  How many mages turned to demons and blood magic out of geniune malice, and how many out of a desperate desire to escape their situation?  And how completely idiotic is it to place the wellbeing and safety of a minority group into the hands of another group who are taught that they are evil?  Considering how little oversight the Templars appear to have, and how few rights and little recourse the mages have to stop abuses of Templar power, I'm not surprised that the Circles revolted.  Endless punishment and no reward breeds rebellion, not obedience.

To get mages to act responsibly and integrate peacefully into society, you need to give them incentive to do so.  A person who is a part of a society has a much bigger stake in its stability and more reason to defend it.

• Start with fostering better ties to non-mages.  Give them reason to see non-mages as something other than oppressors or chattel.  Encourage family visits, friendships outside the tower, community service.  Let them actually help people in designated job areas, like clinics or guard service or the military.
• Get in some oversight for the Templars.  A secular mediator, representing whichever nation the Circle is located in, acting as a neutral third party to firstly, protect the interests of the mages in the Circle as subjects of the monarch, and secondly, to act in the interests of the nation should the worst occur.  Any disciplinary action beyond a talking-to, up to and including the Rite of Annulment, would require the approval of both the mediator and the Knight-Commander.
• Get rid of the Rite of Tranquility altogether, and lay down tight and definite rules as to what punishment is allowed for what crime.  If mages can express dissent without fear of being turned into a zombie or executed, it gives them a lot more options when they're unhappy than turning blood magic.
• Reward mages for good behaviour.  A mage who has passed their apprenticeship gets to leave the Circle if they want.  Give them an amulet or a token with their name on it and a number.  Keep a record in the Circle of mages who've passed their apprenticeship, with copies of the records kept in major population centres.  The number on the amulet corresponds to the number next to the mage's name in the record books, preventing forgery.  Any mage with a valid amulet is free to do as they please, provided they break no laws.
• Change the message in the Circle's education.  Right now, it's "magic is evil, you are cursed, we lock you up for everyone's good."  Teach mages that they've been given a gift - a dangerous one, but one that can do a lot of good if used right.  Teach them that their power is a responsibility to others around them, and a challenge to undo the wrongs perpetrated by the Tevinters and other malificar.
• No more executing apostates on principle.  Apostate /= malificar.  Arrest them, take them to the Circle for testing.  If they pass the apprenticeship test, note them down in the records, give them their amulet & let them go.  If they don't pass, mandatory detention at the Circle and retraining until they do.

The Circle should be a sanctuary and a training ground, not a prison for all mages.  The original concept wasn't too bad, but heavy-handed Chantry oversight and a lack of safeguards made them counter-productive to the goal of peaceful co-existence with mages. 

[FedericoV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I keep hearing on the forums about Mage freedom and how mages deserve to be treated like everybody else, now let's see what you've got. Name me a better alternative to the Circle of Magi, I've heard quite a few arguments in other threads and I'd like to see what a more condensed topic can create.

Home ruled free communities (open even to non-mage) who are governed democratically and federated to the state in wich they reside. A parlament of mages composed by rapresentatives of all the communities in Thedas should be the one to legislate on magic and to enforce law in a formal cooperation with each state/king. Something like the Grey Wardens but more democratic.

Modifié par FedericoV, 17 avril 2011 - 01:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

What is this 'democracy' thingie in Thedas?

Anyone ever heard of it? Seems like a system geared towards special interests, conspiracy dealings, and only favoring the few who have the right to vote.

Seems like a perfect system for blood mages to rule over. Probably demonic too.