81 réponses à ce sujet

[hsujoe]

This is in response to post
http://social.biowar...ex/6661775&lf=8
 
 
While I think the OP is a little narrow minded, I think the dev reply is more offensive.  I don't think calling posters insane and ignorant is very unprofessional.  He is free to post his opinion, but attacking the poster makes him even more childish.  I agree with the OP some what, being one of his main demographic.

I agree in the sense that there are too many same gender romances.  And in some cases, it makes me uncomfortable.  In DA2, I'm constantly trying to not flirt with Anders and Fenris and not be a jerk at the same time.  I find it annoying I'm getting more romance options with Anders than with Merril.  In a few conversations with Anders, I had 2 romance options and one jerk option.  While I appreciate this game being about choices, this is one choice I would love to avoid.  Having just finished Mass Effect 2, I need to praise how they handled this situation.  ME2 never forced the romance options on you.  There was never an uncomfortable moment with Jacob or Garrus. 
 
I have no problems with the game having these elements.  Like I have no problems seeing Brokeback Mountain.  I went to watch that movie for the artistic value and the message it's trying to give.  I went into the theater knowing what I was about to watch.  DA2's theme is not about exploring that aspect of sexuality; romance is just a minor side plot.  Yet it's in my opinion too "in your face."
 
This brings me to another point.  Because of these "forced" same sex romances and uncomfortable moments, I am not as connected to some of these characters as much as I wish.  I feel like this game is lacking the "best friend" character that you can really connect to.  Examples of this are Garrus, Jacob, Allister in previous Bioware games.  Varric is very fun to be around, but he is like a drinking buddy, not a best friend you understand.  The "best friend" in DA2 should have been Anders, but unfortunately he is not.  Even our siblings are lost for most of the game.  In this game, you don't really have someone you know will always have your back.  Aveline will always focus on duty first. Isabelle is a pirate. Varric lies. Fenris is evil. Merril is a airheaded blood mage. And Anders is trying to get in my pants.  This is not to say the characterization is bad.  It's cool how each is different and each has his or her own conflicts, but in a role playing game, I personally would like to find a dependable friend with no other motives. 
 
Another point that I agree with is that the female options are too "exotic."  While I had a good time with Isabelle one night, she really is not the one to bring home to mom.  Merril is a little too quirky for me.  I'm just looking for a "normal" girl for a normal guy.  At least in my righteous/good play through.

Modifié par hsujoe, 26 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[nos_astra]

hsujoe wrote...
I agree in the sense that there are too many same gender romances.

There are four LIs and all of them are available for either gender.
How can there be too many? I don't get it?

Modifié par klarabella, 26 mars 2011 - 08:18 .

[ipgd]

Even if Anders were straight, I'm not sure he could be considered, uh, "a dependable friend with no other motives".

[Kawamura]

The best friend shoulda been Anders?

Uh. My best friends are a hell of a lot more stable. They're Avaline. Or Varric. I dunno who you're hanging out with, but, uh, you might want to reconsider. Generally, making friends with people who are consumed with a purpose is ... not a good idea.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Yeah there are two hetero relationship choices and two ****** ones. Oh I'm sorry, one too many?

[kijikun]

In what world is Hawke a normal guy? Did you have problems finding a normal girl in DA:O too because uh...

You don't have to romance anyone. So if you don't like the options you have, then don't.

[Maria Caliban]

That's nice.

Why not post it in that thread instead of starting a new one on the character board?

[cinderburster]

Because the tomfoolery must spread! SPREAD, I SAY! To every corner of the Bioware forums, including the Mass Effect boards!

[hoorayforicecream]

What most folks need to understand is that it's not really a bad thing to select the heartbreak icon, nor is it a bad thing to gain a bunch of rivalry points. Rivalry is not the end of the game. Taking a few initial rivalry points is not the end of the world. Anders is the only one who comes on kind of strong early on; aside from him, the others really require you to take a more active pursuit role. Fenris is even harder to get; he really values monogamy.

I understand that not everyone is going to like any or all of the potential love interests in DA2, but that's ok. It's an optional part of the game. I didn't find any of the love interests in DA:O that match your desires in a "normal girl for a normal guy" either. Which one was the normal girl in DA:O, the shape-changing apostate witch who grew up with extremely limited human contact, or the secret agent-turned-lay sister who had visions of god in her head?

The people who gravitate to Hawke aren't normal, but that's because Hawke isn't normal. Hawke is like the center of a hurricane, and weirdness gravitates toward him/her. I understand that you might want some normality, but Dragon Age isn't really a game where normality is common. The entire game world tends to fall into gray and grayer morality, with anti-villains and anti-heroes galore. Heroes aren't as heroic as they seem, villains aren't as villainous as they seem, and Hawke's just stuck in the middle trying to do what he or she wants. That's just the kind of game it is.

[Kawamura]

kijikun wrote...

In what world is Hawke a normal guy?

In a world with magic. And dragons. And griffons.

Actually, considering Hawke takes home people like the nutty apostate and the amnesiac elf, it doesn't look very good for him being normal, either. Have a friend like that, everyone she finds is like a character from a modern novel. It tends to say something about your normality if that happens.

[hsujoe]

I guess don't consider i'm playing "Hawk" and more playing "me." Hawk is the product of all my actions in game right? I choose his look, his class, his choices. If you look at him in terms of the world he is in of course he's not normal. But as a "normal" guy (me) choosing girls, I'm not looking for the pirate that sleeps with everyone and may betray you at any time, or the blood mage that thinks demons are cool and is willing to leave her people to pursue her magic. These IMO are not "normal" and are not trustworthy. Not to mention you can't really connect with Merrill intellectually. This is why I say there is nothing less exotic to pick from.

DA:O had that agent girl that had a horrible past. But the difference is you know you can trust her and she is a good person within. What's past is past for her and it was evident. She was "normal" in the sense that she's someone you can trust and someone you can connect with.

And the bit about too many homosexual options, that's 2 out of 3 guys in your random group of people. And I stress that it's too evident and I praise how it is in ME2. I never said there shouldn't be any, I just said there are too many uncomfortable dialogues.

I'm trying to have a discussion.  Some of you may be tired of reading this, but I don't know if you can see this is my first post.  I was talking to a friend about this and he showed me that one thread.  You're welcome to tell me how you disagree with me like an adult.  Thank you hoorayforicecream.

Modifié par hsujoe, 26 mars 2011 - 09:30 .

[hsujoe]

Again, I'm not saying the characterization is bad. I'm having a blast mixing and matching my companions so I can hear all their dialogues. I am doing every companion quest to know all about my companions. All I'm saying there's not that one guy you can really connect with. Guy or girl. In this world of Dragons and this game of relationship building, I'm looking for just a littlle "normalcy" which I think will add to the game.

Modifié par hsujoe, 26 mars 2011 - 09:36 .

[hoorayforicecream]

You're welcome to your opinion that you dislike the fact there weren't any "normal" people you could connect with. I felt like I connected just fine with Isabela, but that's just me. Since it's a difference of opinion, I'll just agree to disagree. Most folks who responded to you probably feel the same way.

The "too many" homosexual options is a bit much though. Anders comes on strong, that much is evident. Not everyone likes that, and I get it. You don't like to have to make up for that extra 5 rivalry you may have to deal with by telling him "no". Thankfully, it's actually extremely easy to make up for those 5 rivalry points if you want to be friends with Anders. Select the heartbreak the first time you see it, and you'll be fine for the rest of the game.

Fenris, however, is a bit of a prude, and is probably the trickiest romance to complete in the game. You can easily go the entire game without completing it with Fenris while trying to. If you don't want to flirt with him, then don't pick the heart option. There's always a non-heart, non-heartbreak option with Fenris.

Finally... why is it a big deal that there are two potential homosexual romance options that are entirely optional, and easily skippable? Do you also get upset that Hawke can be an utter jerk, despite the fact that you don't necessarily click the mean options all the time? There's two heterosexual options out of the three opposite-sex members of the party as well. Why *must* heterosexual options outnumber the homosexual options? Does it make you feel uncomfortable that the options are there, despite the ease of just ignoring it?

There's one uncomfortable dialogue, and that's from Anders. I didn't see this as an issue with homosexual romance options in general; I saw this as Anders being kinda creepy, and that led me to not really use or like him very much. If you find it offputting in general because of a single character's actions, I think you're painting with too wide a brush.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 26 mars 2011 - 09:40 .

[Taura-Tierno]

If you want to, you can just as well consider at least Fenris to be just straight, and ignore the heart options on him. You don't have to reject him, just not flirt with him. So he's just "potentially Hawkesexual", if you choose to flirt with him. Which makes it 1 guy that comes on to you a little bit, and three who don't.

As mentioned, rivalry points aren't bad. How many of your best friends do you always agree with, and have you never gotten some "rivalry" from? I mean, 5 rivalry points isn't "I hate you!" or even "You're a jerk!", it's more like "I disagree with you". You'll get that from most people in real life, at some point. Feels fine that you should get it from the characters in the game as well.

I kind of considered Aveline my Hawke's best friend. She's solid, loyal, a strong character. She doesn't mind critcising Hawke when Hawke does something bad, just like a best friend should. Is it because she's female that it feels wrong?

I think what it really comes down to is that you don't feel that the romances in DA2 suits you. And that's fine. I felt the same thing about the romances in DA:O. I played through several of them, to see how they turned out and to get variation from my several playthrough, but none of them really "clicked", or however you'd put it. I do enjoy the romances in DA2, though, much more than any in previous Bioware games. So I think it's more a matter of taste than anything else.

And the same thing for the "best friend". They might've thrown out Varric and Aveline to be just good friends (or rivals if you want that), but if they don't suit you ... well, it's just a matter of taste.

[Trophonius]

Sometimes, I can't help but wonder if these experiences are just overstating the truth because you always have free will to turn romantic interests down as you please. No one's coercing you to choose flirt lines if it makes you so uncomfortable. Are 15 rivalry points really worth clamoring over? Anders just witnessed a guy he undoubtedly loved/cared about die by his own hands and, in a moment of vulnerability, confuses solace for adoration. Immediately shutting him down might not be the kindest option, but if you do, you'll be able to retain some level of friendship with him. The same principle can be applied with Fenris, who never initiates anything with you unless you initiated first. Believe it or not, these guys will be able to call you a "good friend" if you let them know beforehand that you're not romantically interested in them.

Regarding Mr. Gaider's comment: I think he was spot on, actually. How would you feel if you suddenly became part of the minority where the majority was perpetually and insistently shoving their beliefs on you? If there's discomfort among straight people, I imagine that there's an equal amount of discomfort among non-straight people who, until now, always had to play straight characters. That's what I respect most about Bioware; they try to encompass a broad spectrum of sexuality and are unapologetic about it.

Modifié par Trophonius, 26 mars 2011 - 09:48 .

[hsujoe]

I have no problem with Gaider's opinion on the matter. I just think it's unprofessional how he came out calling the poster insane. Mad or not, it's not Gaider or Bioware's place to say so in a public forum. The mature way is to simply lock the thread and state his reasons.

[Taura-Tierno]

Trophonius wrote...

Regarding Mr. Gaider's comment: I think he was spot on, actually. How would you feel if you suddenly became part of the minority where the majority was perpetually and insistently shoving their beliefs on you? If there's discomfort among straight people, I imagine that there's an equal amount of discomfort among non-straight people who, until now, always had to play straight characters. That's what I respect most about Bioware; they try to encompass a broad spectrum of sexuality and are unapologetic about it.

Indeed. What Bioware has done in this game, even more than in DA:O, is amazing. I find the below quote right on spot with how I feel.

David Gaider wrote ...
And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.

[Sabriana]

Kawamura wrote...

The best friend shoulda been Anders?

Uh. My best friends are a hell of a lot more stable. They're Avaline. Or Varric. I dunno who you're hanging out with, but, uh, you might want to reconsider. Generally, making friends with people who are consumed with a purpose is ... not a good idea.

This is very well put. I applaud you, Kawamura, and I agree wholeheartedly.

To be honest, the whole narrow minded "straight male main demographic" bullsh*t is starting to really tear at my nerves.

Sense of entitlement much?

Anders is the only one of the LI's that you have to put the nix-hammer on early in the game. Its a few measly points in rivalry, which isn't meant to mean "disapproval" at all. You can pursue a pure friendship with him the whole rest of the game if you're so inclined. Just ignore the flirt responses, as my Hawke ignores the assh0le responses, because that's not her.

Hell's bells, in RL, if I get an unwanted come-on, I shoot it down right away. I don't expect the rejected person to be all happy about it either, it's simply normal that he (or she, since my being straight is not tattooed on my forehead), will be a tad put out and/or disappointed. Doesn't mean that we can't become friends, evah, either.


Get over yourself and your very deeply (and wrongly) ingrained sense of entitlement, all you "straight male main demographic" guys.

Edited, because typos know no mercy

Modifié par Sabriana, 26 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[hsujoe]

I apologize if I came off saying I agree with that post i linked completely. My thread title is meant to be a joke. A friend showed me that post and I thought was funny and was alarmed at the reply. My opinions are in my post. I only agree with some parts of the post. I definitely don't agree with what he said about how Bioware should only make games for the "main demographic."

[brianpk80]

I'm not so sure straight (white?) males constitute as much of a percentage of DA2's target demographic as the OP seems to imagine. Gaider's seen the numbers. I thought the straight male gamers were more into Halo and Madden than wizards & elves, no?

The Anders romance was well done. Two fugitives against the whole world, with many meanings attached. Brilliant.

As for looking for a normal girl to bring home to mom, hmm... I'm not sure whether Dragon Age is the right venue for that or how such a character would have fit into the plot, but if she did, I'd have no objection to a romance option with her.

[Taura-Tierno]

brianpk80 wrote...

I'm not so sure straight (white?) males constitute as much of a percentage of DA2's target demographic as the OP seems to imagine. Gaider's seen the numbers. I thought the straight male gamers were more into Halo and Madden than wizards & elves, no?

The Anders romance was well done. Two fugitives against the whole world, with many meanings attached. Brilliant.

As for looking for a normal girl to bring home to mom, hmm... I'm not sure whether Dragon Age is the right venue for that or how such a character would have fit into the plot, but if she did, I'd have no objection to a romance option with her.

I'm not sure I'd generalise in that direction ... but I definitely think you have a point. Games such as Dragon Age probably attract a lot of other groups than just straight males. If Dragon Age had existed when I was a teenager, I might've played it just for the gay romance content ... just to have a game I could relate to more than to others. I'm pretty sure that the more choice is given to the player, the more different groups of people the game is going to attract. 

[ThatDancingTurian]

hsujoe wrote...

There was never an uncomfortable moment with Jacob or Garrus.

That would be because Mass Effect has no M/M relationships at all. Bad example.

You're not forced to flirt with anyone you don't want to. Just because the options are there it doesn't mean you have to take them. Fenris never initiates flirting and if you choose the sarcastic options in the post-Tranquility convo, Anders will never initiate either, IIRC. (I just did it and it worked for me.)

Also, Varric was totally my bro, don't know what you're talking about. Varric is the one character in the game that will always have your back.

EDIT:

hoorayforicecream wrote...

What most folks need to understand is that it's not really a bad thing to select the heartbreak icon, nor is it a bad thing to gain a bunch of rivalry points. Rivalry is not the end of the game. Taking a few initial rivalry points is not the end of the world.

This in general has to be one of my biggest pet peeves on the forum. Why do people keep equating 'rival' with 'hate'? ... I've had way more fun rivaling Fenris, Anders AND Merrill than I did friendshipping them. They never stopped wanting to talk to me and they still valued my opinions. They just didn't agree with them all the time. And that's what made it awesome.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 26 mars 2011 - 11:34 .

[Zandilar]

hsujoe wrote...

And the bit about too many homosexual options, that's 2 out of 3 guys in your random group of people. And I stress that it's too evident and I praise how it is in ME2. I never said there shouldn't be any, I just said there are too many uncomfortable dialogues.

I'm surprised no one else has pulled you up in this. ME2 had no homosexual romance options at all*, at least not until LotSB was released (and that was simply a continuation of Liara's romance from ME for those who romanced her there - I don't think new Sheperds could pick her up, but I could be wrong)... And even then, someone at Bioware (forget who it was) implied there was no homosexual romance options in ME AT ALL because Liara wasn't really a woman.

So if you like how they handled it in ME2, does this mean you'd rather see NO homosexual romance options? (I'm asking for clarification here, not accusing you of anything.)

* I don't count Kelly, she's not exactly a romance. Also, someone did manage to beat me to this by about nine minutes.

Modifié par Zandilar, 26 mars 2011 - 11:36 .

[PlumPaul93]

Zandilar wrote...

hsujoe wrote...

And the bit about too many homosexual options, that's 2 out of 3 guys in your random group of people. And I stress that it's too evident and I praise how it is in ME2. I never said there shouldn't be any, I just said there are too many uncomfortable dialogues.

I'm surprised no one else has pulled you up in this. ME2 had no homosexual romance options at all, at least not until LotSB was released (and that was simply a continuation of Liara's romance from ME for those who romanced her there - I don't think new Sheperds could pick her up, but I could be wrong)... And even then, someone at Bioware (forget who it was) implied there was no homosexual romance options in ME AT ALL because Liara wasn't really a woman.

So if you like how they handled it in ME2, does this mean you'd rather see NO homosexual romance options? (I'm asking for clarification here, not accusing you of anything.)

I'd assume he means, he liked how in ME he could have a conversation with a male companion and have them not be a romance option as do I.

[Zandilar]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

I'd assume he means, he liked how in ME he could have a conversation with a male companion and have them not be a romance option as do I.

That isn't an answer. There was no M/M romance in ME, so none of them were potential LIs, so therefore...