81 réponses à ce sujet

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I think people missed out the main idea behind biromances. It was not made to harass straight males, nor it was made to praise gay, lesbian or bi people:

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one.

I really think that everyone should be offended because of that line. Strange that people seem to just defend one of camps, when actually you all had a spit in your gamers faces.

[Laurelinde]

FWIW, I believe Gaider started with the 'insane' thing because the poster had put up the exact same topic three or four times repeatedly, replacing each one as it degenerated and got closed down. So the insanity wasn't his opinions, but his refusal to acknowledge the answers he was getting.

(Admittedly, thinking you're such a special snowflake that the whole world should revolve around you and what you want, and screw everyone else, is kind of...unwise as well.)

[PlumPaul93]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I think people missed out the main idea behind biromances. It was not made to harass straight males, nor it was made to praise gay, lesbian or bi people:

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one.

I really think that everyone should be offended because of that line. Strange that people seem to just defend one of camps, when actually you all had a spit in your gamers faces.

yep always was looking for that quite but to lazy to look, thats the exact reason problems like this happened.

[ejoslin]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I think people missed out the main idea behind biromances. It was not made to harass straight males, nor it was made to praise gay, lesbian or bi people:

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one.

I really think that everyone should be offended because of that line. Strange that people seem to just defend one of camps, when actually you all had a spit in your gamers faces.

I'm not quite sure what is offensive about this line.  There's a limited budget.  Rather than creating new characters, they create a bit more interaction with fewer characters.

[Taura-Tierno]

I didn't feel like I was spit in my "gamer's" face by romance options being available for both genders. I felt spit in the face when I bought Aliens vs Predator and finished 2/3 of the game in about 5 hours.

I thought it was a fair idea to make the LI's available for everyone. The best solution? Maybe ... maybe not. Far better than having fewer LI's, though.

[dantares83]

well, I think if gamers really want to blame, we should blame our socially constructed world... that all of us needs to cut budget and make money as quickly as possible...

I believe they make DAO such a good game is because they needed to attract/retain fans for a starting title... but once they see the success, the knew that they could lax it out n create a poorer version of the game... although it may backfired and lose many fans (as it already does), they could now spend more time on a new release and rectify all the mistakes... gamers will still go n buy after reading reviews on it...

[jaybee93]

Every time I read another thread where someone says they're uncomfortable with the gay romance options I think, "Then I'm glad they're there. Maybe it'll prepare you for real life."

[Kawamura]

Heidenreich wrote...

Get the DLC and Bromance Sebastian. There, now you have a human, too. Hell, you can Bromance Fenris with out ever getting the vibe that he has the ability to be "Hawk-sexual". The only one who's openly "Hawk-sexual" is Anders, and that's because he's just witnessed his first guy love be destroyed. Anders was always ambiguous. He's just lonely, desperate, and obsessive now as well ;p

Yeah, but then you have to have a lawful good bromance, and past experience has told me that's just homoeroticism out the wazoo.

[RabidWHM]

I think it is great to have all the romance options available to everyone. I know for me it saves me some time when i want to replay the games. I don't have to start a completely new play through just to experience a different romance with a love interest. While I do feel certain characters would be more Hetero than BI, I am happy the option is available to everyone. Its not only about you. Everyone should be able to enjoy their game the way they want. It is nice to have that option. You don't like to flirt with men/women do not click the option. I had a completely fine time establishing BFF/sisterly bonds with the ladies of the game despite their possible bisexual nature. My mage is straight, although my warrior...eh not so much LOL

My biggest grip is these one line flirt options! WTH! They are so lame. I know at one point my champion is like I love you anders and he doesn't even acknowledge it and goes off on her about his revolution lol. Can we not be so obvious in our flirting. How about being nice or compliments then work on the sexual innuendos later! *sigh*

[Kawamura]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I think people missed out the main idea behind biromances. It was not made to harass straight males, nor it was made to praise gay, lesbian or bi people:

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one.

I really think that everyone should be offended because of that line. Strange that people seem to just defend one of camps, when actually you all had a spit in your gamers faces.

yep always was looking for that quite but to lazy to look, thats the exact reason problems like this happened.

Why would it be such a big problem?

Look. Sexual orientation is kind of a big thing, but not ... really. I mean, whether or not one is attracted to men or women or something else doesn't really have an impact on personality unless there have been sorta secondary events. Like, if you grow up somewhere that doesn't care if you're gay or straight or something else, that's not really going to play a part in your personality development. A gay man won't necessarily be effete, a gay woman won't necessarily be really good at sports and car repair.

So ... it's not like it's a big character leap to have the same characters interested in dudes and dudettes. It's not a big deal. It would be cheaper, but cheaper in the same way that having characters call you by title or surname is cheaper than, say, recording a whole bunch of sounds so you can pick your speshul given name. And it's one of those moments that are cheaper and better. You get to play the way you want. You get to be a gay guy and pine after the nutty apostate. You get to be a gay woman and go after both the pirate queen and the adorable blood mage (and still have to deal with the nutty apostate). Or you can be straight as an arrow. You get to pick that. You could even role play it, if you wanted to, and I assure you, all the scenes are pretty PG, so if you wanted to play a gay, bisexual, pansexual, questioning man or woman, now's your chance.

[Camenae]

Speaking of the "main demographic", it's the homogeneity of the people in Thedas I find to be more problematic than any perceived sexual orientation issues.

Supposedly Bioware tried to address this issue for DA2, but still, other than the circle mages Ella and Alain and that one sister in the chantry who has no lines (yet she still appeared in the characters list in the collector's edition guidebook, LOL affirmative action)..other than these people, EVERYBODY in the game is white white whitey-white white.

[cinderburster]

Camenae wrote...

Speaking of the "main demographic", it's the homogeneity of the people in Thedas I find to be more problematic than any perceived sexual orientation issues.

Supposedly Bioware tried to address this issue for DA2, but still, other than the circle mages Ella and Alain and that one sister in the chantry who has no lines (yet she still appeared in the characters list in the collector's edition guidebook, LOL affirmative action)..other than these people, EVERYBODY in the game is white white whitey-white white.

That may be because A) Travel in Thedas is hard and The Free Marches and Fereldan are peopled the same way as Feudal era Britain.  I'm not saying that it's a good thing that most people are white in the game, I'm just saying that there are logical reasons for it.

You could even role play it, if you wanted to, and I assure you, all the
scenes are pretty PG, so if you wanted to play a gay, bisexual,
pansexual, questioning man or woman, now's your chance.

You just hit the underlying issue on the head, and I believe the OP copped to it earlier:  A lot of people do not roleplay in an RPG.  Instead of playing a character separate from themselves, they play as if Hawke is an avatar of themself.  Without divorcing the character from who you are, you bring your own social mores into the issue, and that is why so many people are complaining about the sexuality of the characters.  

So I can understand why they're getting upset, but I disagree.  I think that by playing Hawke as yourself, you're missing out on a great deal of fun.  Stretch those imaginations!  Make a character that has desires and wants that you don't share.  It's good for you.

Modifié par cinderburster, 26 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[PlumPaul93]

Kawamura wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I think people missed out the main idea behind biromances. It was not made to harass straight males, nor it was made to praise gay, lesbian or bi people:

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one.

I really think that everyone should be offended because of that line. Strange that people seem to just defend one of camps, when actually you all had a spit in your gamers faces.

yep always was looking for that quite but to lazy to look, thats the exact reason problems like this happened.

Why would it be such a big problem?

Look. Sexual orientation is kind of a big thing, but not ... really. I mean, whether or not one is attracted to men or women or something else doesn't really have an impact on personality unless there have been sorta secondary events. Like, if you grow up somewhere that doesn't care if you're gay or straight or something else, that's not really going to play a part in your personality development. A gay man won't necessarily be effete, a gay woman won't necessarily be really good at sports and car repair.

So ... it's not like it's a big character leap to have the same characters interested in dudes and dudettes. It's not a big deal. It would be cheaper, but cheaper in the same way that having characters call you by title or surname is cheaper than, say, recording a whole bunch of sounds so you can pick your speshul given name. And it's one of those moments that are cheaper and better. You get to play the way you want. You get to be a gay guy and pine after the nutty apostate. You get to be a gay woman and go after both the pirate queen and the adorable blood mage (and still have to deal with the nutty apostate). Or you can be straight as an arrow. You get to pick that. You could even role play it, if you wanted to, and I assure you, all the scenes are pretty PG, so if you wanted to play a gay, bisexual, pansexual, questioning man or woman, now's your chance.

we'll I'd say the fact that they made everyone bi made it ridicuously unbelievable, they also could've made the romances much better as well, (as in maybe better dialogue options once anders hits on you). Also I wasn't saying having a gay romance was the problem the way they implemented it into the game because it was far less costly was the problem.

[Kawamura]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I think people missed out the main idea behind biromances. It was not made to harass straight males, nor it was made to praise gay, lesbian or bi people:

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one.

I really think that everyone should be offended because of that line. Strange that people seem to just defend one of camps, when actually you all had a spit in your gamers faces.

yep always was looking for that quite but to lazy to look, thats the exact reason problems like this happened.

Why would it be such a big problem?

Look. Sexual orientation is kind of a big thing, but not ... really. I mean, whether or not one is attracted to men or women or something else doesn't really have an impact on personality unless there have been sorta secondary events. Like, if you grow up somewhere that doesn't care if you're gay or straight or something else, that's not really going to play a part in your personality development. A gay man won't necessarily be effete, a gay woman won't necessarily be really good at sports and car repair.

So ... it's not like it's a big character leap to have the same characters interested in dudes and dudettes. It's not a big deal. It would be cheaper, but cheaper in the same way that having characters call you by title or surname is cheaper than, say, recording a whole bunch of sounds so you can pick your speshul given name. And it's one of those moments that are cheaper and better. You get to play the way you want. You get to be a gay guy and pine after the nutty apostate. You get to be a gay woman and go after both the pirate queen and the adorable blood mage (and still have to deal with the nutty apostate). Or you can be straight as an arrow. You get to pick that. You could even role play it, if you wanted to, and I assure you, all the scenes are pretty PG, so if you wanted to play a gay, bisexual, pansexual, questioning man or woman, now's your chance.

we'll I'd say the fact that they made everyone bi made it ridicuously unbelievable, they also could've made the romances much better as well, (as in maybe better dialogue options once anders hits on you). Also I wasn't saying having a gay romance was the problem the way they implemented it into the game because it was far less costly was the problem.

They're not really "bi". Anders doesn't seem to express any feelings towards men in a fem!Hawke's playthrough (though, considering the stuff he probably got up to in the Circle, I'm going to guess the "sounds like identifies as pansexual" comment that he has in a man!Hawke's play through would hold). Merril and Fenris don't seem to talk about their sexual histories at all, so I wouldn't be able to tell you which they are.

And didn't we have studies on human sexuality that kinda put us more in the middle of the kinsey scale, as a majority, than at the extremes? Or am I making that up? Bisexuality/pansexuality/fluid sexuality is probably more common than we know (like domestic abuse against men in diff sex pairs), we just don't -- talk about it or admit it.

Let them be open to everyone. That's honestly not a big deal. It's one of those moments where the cheaper option is the same as the "fairer to everyone" option, and that's not so bad.

[RabidWHM]

cinderburster wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Speaking of the "main demographic", it's the homogeneity of the people in Thedas I find to be more problematic than any perceived sexual orientation issues.

Supposedly Bioware tried to address this issue for DA2, but still, other than the circle mages Ella and Alain and that one sister in the chantry who has no lines (yet she still appeared in the characters list in the collector's edition guidebook, LOL affirmative action)..other than these people, EVERYBODY in the game is white white whitey-white white.

That may be because A) Travel in Thedas is hard and The Free Marches and Fereldan are peopled the same way as Feudal era Britain.  I'm not saying that it's a good thing that most people are white in the game, I'm just saying that there are logical reasons for it.

Yes I remember it saying that Fereldan is based off Europe. I know they stated Orlais is based on France and Antiva is where you'll find the tan skin and the heavy spanish accent. I think though that DA:O had more darker skinned people. I do believe that this is becuase of the variety of places you visit during the game. DA2 is soley in Kirkwall and this is only one city in the Free Marches. I do think our next installement will probably be some place in Orlais due to the hints dropped throughout DA2. 

[Blacklash93]

Apparently a potential romance with someone takes out the appeal of "bromance".

If you're uncomfortable with a person of the same sex who may find you attractive, that's your personal issue. Maybe you need to toughen up a bit instead of asking Bioware cater to your reservations.

[Addai]

hsujoe wrote...

DA:O had that agent girl that had a horrible past. But the difference is you know you can trust her and she is a good person within. What's past is past for her and it was evident. She was "normal" in the sense that she's someone you can trust and someone you can connect with.

LOL No she's not.  She's completely f'ed up to the point that she needs the Warden to tell her what sort of person to be.  And she prefers women.  She's just a really good bard, such that straight men manage to convince themselves she's the girl next door because that's what you want.  Sorry you don't like either of the female LIs, but there's no difference in that respect from Origins and it has nothing to do with ignoring a demographic or with all the Lis being bisexual.  Which demographic do you suppose they were considering when they fashioned Isabela's chest?

Modifié par Addai67, 26 mars 2011 - 06:55 .

[Zandilar]

I think it's unfair to label Hawke's companions anything other than "Hawke-sexual". The only character that openly expresses bisexuality is Isabela, at least in a female Hawke play-through.

As for the realism of Anders, Fenris, Isabela, and Merrill all being found in a group together? Like calls to like, there's a reason most of your companions get along with each other without death or dismemberment, and it is because they have things in common. Why not sexuality? After all, it's not like every LGBT person out there is lonely, we must meet each other somehow.

People who try to kid themselves into thinking that (we) gay people make up 1% of the population, are just denying reality. The reality is, there are far more people between 2 and 5 on the Kinsey scale, than there are at 1 or 6. We've just been taught for so long that there's some kind of sexuality binary, that we can't see this. This idea has become so ingrained that people think that it's true, and can't concieve the alternative. It's why most people are blind to the idea of bisexuality. Sexuality is a spectrum, and in some cases it can even be a sliding scale. Just as people learn and grow and change their minds, some people find their attractions changing. Love also has a role to play in this - there are many stories of a person happily being X sexuality then meeting someone of a gender outside that sexuality and falling for them. It happens.

Sexuality is way way more complicated than most people think.

[lizzbee]

ejoslin wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Interestingly, in my second conversation with Anders, I picked the heartbreak option  I didn't get an approval change at all.  Granted, I didn't gain approval which I would have had I flirted, but you know, I know he and Hawke aren't going to be in a relationship.

It really was that easy.

I got nailed pretty hard with rivalry.  I just reloaded and picked all the snark options   Rivalry +5 vs. 15.

It could be that my Hawke is female, but she picked the aggressive options the first conversation.  Just after Karl, though, there were the diplomatic, snarky, and heartbreak options (I didn't make it to the two flirts and heartbreak -- you can break it off before then).

As I said, it was a FemHawke, but she was the sort of goody-two-shoes snarker with a heart of gold.  Unless it came to easy profit.  So she'd never go aggressive unless she was really pissed off.

I think the real problem is with the dialog wheel itself.  You have to have three choices, and three only.  My only ManShep ran into a similar problem in ME2 with Tali when he was dedicated to Miranda.  There's a "neutral" option when she comes on to you that says, "It might not be healthy."  Which, of course, turns into a coy come-on line, rather than, "It's better if we don't because I might kill you-- nothing personal, Tali."  And then I couldn't get out of the "dump Miranda for me" romance loop with her without screwing over Miranda so I could reject her later.

It really sucks that there isn't a fourth option, "Sorry, not interested."  The "heartbreak" option is so full of douchery, it made me cringe when Hawke got outright hostile and vicious.  I just remember that it was relatively easy to shut down Alistair and Zev early on in DA:O without being an ass about it (not that I ever wanted to shut Zev down!).  I think Bioware did a really crappy job in handling Anders' early romance stages, unfortunately.

Note: this has nothing to do with the whole "Main Demographic" thing, but rather Bioware's ham-fisted handling of Anders.

Modifié par lizzbee, 26 mars 2011 - 11:46 .

[Masako52]

Oh yes, poor POOR straight male gamers, they have to suffer through possibly being hit on by fictional male characters! What is the world coming to?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I hope y'all catch my sarcasm, here. I really could not care less if you have some innate homophobia going on. I just know that Bioware is one of the few gaming companies that has the courage to recognize LGBT people like me, who are rarely, if EVER, present in video games. As a gay gamer, it means a lot to me. To be frank... seriously stop thinking about only yourself.

[Sjofn]

hsujoe wrote...

DA:O had that agent girl that had a horrible past. But the difference is you know you can trust her and she is a good person within. What's past is past for her and it was evident. She was "normal" in the sense that she's someone you can trust and someone you can connect with.

Maybe you should try giving Isabella a damn chance, then. Leliana slept with many, many people too, you know. Isabella just sees no reason to be ashamed of it. Nor should she.

Isabella has Zevran Disease, I suppose. People think "depraved bisexual!" and then write her off, just like they wrote him off. Too bad for them!

[Thiefy]

i officially hate topics that have to do with the "main/male demographic".

Srsly, if you're really "men", stop your b*tching and grow a pair. don't like it? ignore it and move on to something you do like. write a personal letter to bioware or something, the forum has enough of these topics already. my god, you people with the incessant whining sound worse than when all the ladies at my job have their periods sync up at the time and not enough midol to pass around between all of us.

Zevran flirts with a male warden too but noone gets up in arms nearly as much. Sure, he doesn't get upset at you if you turn him down, but Zevran is more flirty, and Anders is more sensitive. They are two different people with different reactions. That makes them more believable. Why should a small addition to rivalry matter that much when you can 1)regain them back easily or 2)also get bonuses for full on rivalry? Anders flirting with you is just ONE part of the game. One very tiny, small part of the game. Surely there was something you you disliked that deserves more attention than the sexuality of a companion. (You know, like the reused dungeons.)

i think the lesson here is to quit being such a people pleaser all the time and doing all that ass kissing, or it may come back to bite you when you least expect it. one purple choice early in that anders conversation could have had you avoid any flirting at all.

[lizzbee]

hsujoe wrote...

This is in response to post
http://social.biowar...ex/6661775&lf=8
 
 
I agree in the sense that there are too many same gender romances.  And in some cases, it makes me uncomfortable.  In DA2, I'm constantly trying to not flirt with Anders and Fenris and not be a jerk at the same time.  I find it annoying I'm getting more romance options with Anders than with Merril.  In a few conversations with Anders, I had 2 romance options and one jerk option.  While I appreciate this game being about choices, this is one choice I would love to avoid.  Having just finished Mass Effect 2, I need to praise how they handled this situation.  ME2 never forced the romance options on you.  There was never an uncomfortable moment with Jacob or Garrus. 
 

Were there uncomfortable moments with Fenris?  I had my Anders-romancing FemHawke in an easy and comfortable bromance with him.  I think there's only one line that can sort of be interpreted as a come-on in the first conversation, and it's pretty easy to keep things polite and professional.  He never flirts after that unless you choose the flirt option.  From the female side, the only come-on I had was from Isabela that was sort of a toss-off line at the end of her recruitment quest.  You actually had to pursue her if you wanted to flirt.

ME2 forced romance options on you pretty hard.  Example: Tali for ManShep, Jacob for FemShep.  And boy did the Jacob thing make me feel almost dirty, and not in a good way.  The Anders-railroading was just as bad with Tali.  But then again, that requires not being the "Main Demographic" to perceive it in ME2.  As a heterosexual female, I'm definitely not the "Main Demographic."

I'm actually happy that I have a choice of so many companions to romance.  Chances are my first ManHawke will be happily flirting away and having his heart broken with Fenris, just like my male wardens somehow always ended up with Zev, no matter how much I adored Morrigan.  I think Bioware did a decent enough job with making the companions feel like they're tuned whatever way to finding your personal male or female Hawke attractive, regardless of gender.

[Saibh]

I agree with Gaider--the "main" demographic is so used to being catered to, they actually have the gall to think they're being neglected when other demographics are looked to.

You have two straight LIs. As many as DAO, ME, and JE. In terms of LIs, you are completely catered to. It's only that, for once, everyone else gets as many options.

No one was neglected. Everyone was served. And, as he said, if you think that that other people deserve less options so you can feel better about the ones you have, I just don't think you deserve any.

[teknoarcanist]

"All things being equal, OH GOD GAY PEOPLE, GET 'EM OFF!"

<_<

I think Fenris was handled pretty well; he's sort of my 'best friend' character, so I suppose it's a personal thing.  His romance options seemed pretty tame to me. Hawke goes "You're my friend, Fenris." and Fenris is like ":O ...cool."

As far as Anders . . . I sort of took his romantic pushiness as speaking to the instability in his personality overall. I never played DA:O, so I don't know how he was in that, but coming at it fresh, he seems like kind of a sociopath. I don't really take him anywhere, and avoid talking to him if I can. My Hawke being a male mage, it seems like anything short of going guns blazing into a combination bromance / mage holocaust makes Anders hate you. So I just leave him stew in his clinic and go hang out with friendlier and more interesting people. Like The Arishok.

Modifié par teknoarcanist, 27 mars 2011 - 02:47 .