350 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Deztyn - that all depends on what story Bioware wants to "tell" you in their next "RPG".

I guarantee all the mage rebellion lovers are going to be disappointed when all is said and done. I think Bioware is telling the "rebellion causes pain mmmkay" story... and "Chantry wasn't so bad after all mmmmkay" story.

Can't wait until Cassandra tells you that if you don't save the Chantry - the Qunari are going to come and destroy Thedas... and even the rebel mages know what Qunari do to saarebas.

[Nyaore]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Can't wait until Cassandra tells you that if you don't save the Chantry - the Qunari are going to come and destroy Thedas... and even the rebel mages know what Qunari do to saarebas.

I'm really hoping for this as well. I could care less about the continued existence of the Chantry at this point in time, but the Qunari would be foolish to let such a prime opportunity escape their grasp. It'll be interesting to see just what happens in the next few decades, in regards to Thedas' timeline, and just how the Qunari react to the chance that has now been afforded to them.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia, are you assuming I would care if you desire to murder every mages in your play through? You are welcome to do whatever you like. That is the point of having agency over your protagonist. It's why we can side with the templars or the mages as Hawke. Personally, I don't agree with what the Chantry or the Templar Order did to the mages of the Circles. You're welcome to disagree, of course.

Deztyn, I'm curious what happens next for the emancipated Circles as well. We have too little information as it is.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia, I disagree with your theory about the third Dragon Age. Considering the mages were the ones who were the greatest advantage the Chantey forces had against the Qunari, why would the newly freed mages work with an organization that needs them more than the mages need the Chantry? If anything, it would force the Chantry to accept their autonomy, or have the mages abandon them to the advanced technology of the Qunari.

[Pileyourbodies]

Why would mages work with a people who would tie their mouths shut and collar them? There is no insane view that you hold where that is better than circles.

[LobselVith8]

Why would mages accept subjugation from the Chantry or the Qunari, Pileyourbodies?

[Pileyourbodies]

Well many accept chantry doctrine such as Wynne and even Anders accepts the Chant he just wants more freedom for mages. Mages lack the number to have political power without resorting to the type of slavery that is found in tevinter.

[Camenae]

Sigh why are the people in Thedas all like the freaking Dursleys in Harry Potter...In DA:O I honestly thought the Circle of Magi was gonna be like Hogwarts.

[LobselVith8]

There's no proof mages will resort to enslaving people, especially when that isn't true of the Chasind tribes, the Dalish clans, the witches of Rivain, or even the morally bankrupt people of Haven. Free mages don't mean another Tevinter. And since all the Circles broke free from Chantry control, Pileyourbodies, I don't see them returning to a life of oppression and servitude anytime soon.

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Deztyn, I'm curious what happens next for the emancipated Circles as well. We have too little information as it is.

But realistically, beyond 'freedom' what are the goals? Creation of their own little country? Where? What reaction will the common people have to the 'free' mages? Are the common people going to invite them to live next door? Who's going to train all the new young mages with no institution in place for it? Are they just going to be killed outright? How many Connors are going to pop up as a result? Is the Chantry going to shrug it's shoulders and say "oh well, forget the religious doctrine I can't be bothered with you anymore"? Do you see the mages completely obliterating the Chantry in some holy war? Despite the fact that pretty much everyone in Thedas is a believer to some degree and there doesn't seem to be any significant agnostic or atheist group?

What I'm getting at here is why do you think the end result of breaking the circles will be better for the world?

Aside from freedom for the mages, I mean.

[Taleroth]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can't wait until Cassandra tells you that if you don't save the Chantry - the Qunari are going to come and destroy Thedas... and even the rebel mages know what Qunari do to saarebas.

I think a point was missed.

Fight for freedom or die.  Not fight for freedom or surrender when they don't get what they want.  The mages wil die fighting the Qunari or die fighting the Templars.  Or they will be free.

I can't wait until someone tells Cassandra that unless the mages are free - the Qunari will win.

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Deztyn, I'm curious what happens next for the emancipated Circles as well. We have too little information as it is.

But realistically, beyond 'freedom' what are the goals? Creation of their own little country? Where? What reaction will the common people have to the 'free' mages? Are the common people going to invite them to live next door? Who's going to train all the new young mages with no institution in place for it? Are they just going to be killed outright? How many Connors are going to pop up as a result? Is the Chantry going to shrug it's shoulders and say "oh well, forget the religious doctrine I can't be bothered with you anymore"? Do you see the mages completely obliterating the Chantry in some holy war? Despite the fact that pretty much everyone in Thedas is a believer to some degree and there doesn't seem to be any significant agnostic or atheist group? 

What I'm getting at here is why do you think the end result of breaking the circles will be better for the world?

Aside from freedom for the mages, I mean.

It seems like you've kind of started writing your own fanfic there.  Their own country?  No institution for training?  Holy war?  All a bit of a leap.

Modifié par Taleroth, 28 mars 2011 - 05:17 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Anders has become a true revolutionary. And true revolutionaries fight all their lives. Their one purpose is to overthrow the corrupt and oppressive governments that abuse them and their people. Once overthrown, revolutionaries will keep fighting, because it is all they know.

Anders' dream does not reach beyond the overthrow of the Chantry and the liberation of the mages. And it does not have to.

[Deztyn]

Taleroth wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Deztyn, I'm curious what happens next for the emancipated Circles as well. We have too little information as it is.

But realistically, beyond 'freedom' what are the goals?

Creation of their own little country? Where?

What reaction will the common people have to the 'free' mages?

Are the common people going to invite them to live next door?

Who's going to train all the new young mages with no institution in place for it? Are they just going to be killed outright? How many Connors are going to pop up as a result?

Is the Chantry going to shrug it's shoulders and say "oh well, forget the religious doctrine I can't be bothered with you anymore"?

Do you see the mages completely obliterating the Chantry in some holy war? Despite the fact that pretty much everyone in Thedas is a believer to some degree and there doesn't seem to be any significant agnostic or atheist group? 

What I'm getting at here is why do you think the end result of breaking the circles will be better for the world?

Aside from freedom for the mages, I mean.

It seems like you've kind of started writing your own fanfic there.  Their own country?  No institution for training?  Holy war?  All a bit of a leap.

*sighs*

No. A series of questions. Not all related. Asking what exactly you think will happen after the Circles are broken. Since some people refuse to say anything other than "Mages are slaves. Go Anders!"

A bit of a leap is 'the mages are free and they all live happily ever after'.

[ShrinkingFish]

Deztyn wrote...

*sighs*

No. A series of questions. Not all related. Asking what exactly you think will happen after the Circles are broken. Since some people refuse to say anything other than "Mages are slaves. Go Anders!"

A bit of a leap is 'the mages are free and they all live happily ever after'.

I don't think anyone reasonably expects a happily ever after. But that is not the point of this conflict.

The mages have been spiritually, physically and mentally abused by the Chantry and the Circle of Magi since its inception. As much as some may cry that it is for the common good it is completely unreasonable to expect a group of people to allow themselves to be abused for the safety of others. This is therefore nothing more than the logical backlash to the Chantry's abuse.

Right now the only problem is between the Chantry, the Templars and the Mages. All other questions can and will be put on hold until such time as the current crises is resolved. No time to plan for the future when you're fighting for survival and freedom today. Thus there is no "end game" plan. This war is far to reactionary and extreme to expect anyone to have thought it through to the end.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 28 mars 2011 - 06:49 .

[IncendiarySheep]

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

Actually, its completely related to modern "terrorism". The Anders and Mages/Templar issue is 100% the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

I could hardly disagree more. I started a half a dozen responses to this, but ultimately none are suitable for posting on this board. I'll just take a deep breath and assume that either you don't know as much about the conflict as you think you do, or we have very different definitions of a half a dozen words used in your post.  

Speaking generally, I have no doubt Bioware draws themes and concepts from the real world - terrorism, greed, refugees, friendship, family etc.  These are emtional issues we can all relate too -  a common human experience that gives stories meaning.  But I don't think they'd be so bold as to make comments on actual political events.  How could they?  Thedas is totally removed from the modern world.  We don't have demonic possession, dragons, magic and societies devoted to slavery. Not even Bioware could, frankly, create a world which sufficient depth to do justice to the complex backgrounds of actual events.  We'd be better off drawing comparisons between mages and the mutants from X-Men than any real world conflict. 

In any case, many of the actions of the characters in this game would be insane or criminal in the real world.  There is a very telling dialogue where Varric points out that (pre-bomb) Anders has killed over 200 girls - and he's the healer!  My lawful good, compromise-loving champion probably wiped out closer to a thousand, which in the real world would put her in the same league as a serious natural disaster.  In real life a 'champion' who went around righting wrongs by killing street thugs and muggers would generally be considered a psychopath in need of jailing - even more so were the self-appointed champion to start executing people without bothering with evidence and a trials.  In real life, brawling in bars, threatening merchants and stealing architectual treasures are very serious crimes, as are breaking and entering and graverobbing.  Even randomly looting chests in government buildings is unlikely to make one friends.  Yet these things happen on a casual basis in DA2.

Once we start on the path of direct real world comparisons, no one comes out of this game looking very good.

Modifié par IncendiarySheep, 28 mars 2011 - 09:11 .

[Hellrazer3600]

I only left Anders alive after he pulled that crap on the chantry because I needed his healing abilities for the final fights in the game. Otherwise I would have killed him. (Hint hint Bioware, make more than 1 healer in the next game )

Modifié par Hellrazer3600, 28 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[The Angry One]

Hellrazer3600 wrote...

I only left Anders alive after he pulled that crap on the chantry because I needed his healing abilities for the final fights in the game. Otherwise I would have killed him. (Hint hint Bioware, make more than 1 healer in the next game )

Merril not having the base healing tree is pretty damn stupid. I feel like slapping whoever thought that was a good idea.

[TobiTobsen]

Hellrazer3600 wrote...

I only left Anders alive after he pulled that crap on the chantry because I needed his healing abilities for the final fights in the game. Otherwise I would have killed him. (Hint hint Bioware, make more than 1 healer in the next game )

Hawke is the best olympic athlete Kirkwall ever had. Who needs a healer?

[Eranelle]

After reading Ingu's post, it's almost the same as I was going for. Anyhoo... I like ShrinkingFish's analogy about the father and the mother.

The first time I played DA2, I was already set to side with the Mages when they took Bethany to the Circle. Altho, there were times when blood mages had me almost made me hate their kind, the moment when they killed Hawke's mother. It was naive of me for just wanting Hawke to fall in love with Anders; Seeing what happened to Hawke's family, it was Anders that is left at her side. I was in shock about what he did to the chantry and realized that the potions he asked me to help him was the bomb. I was so naive! haha... (gawd, I love this game) So, I let Anders live. (plus my PC needed his healing. haha)

I played another character who also sided with the mages just to really understand Anders' motive.

Modifié par Eranelle, 28 mars 2011 - 10:16 .

[nubbers666]

i can understand why he did it
but i can't agree with it

[Ingu]

katie916 wrote...

i can understand why he did it
but i can't agree with it

haha, that's what I'm looking for.

[DA_GamerGal]

Anders is the poster boy for what happens when good intentions become corrupted by hate and extremism.

He allowed the spirit Justice to infill his body and merge with his spirit because he wanted to help Justice live outside the Fade and continue his work of bringing justice to the world ( a very good intention) but once merged with Anders, Justice became Vengeance due to the hate for the Circle and Templars that Anders had within his heart/mind/soul.

Anders became ever changed and not in the best way. The true meaning of justice was lost to Anders and Justice, and there was nothing left but extreme views and actions. Justice without the temperance of mercy and understanding of another's viewpoint can only lead to a vigilante type of justice- or just straight vengeance. Extremism at it's worst.

But what is left when you feel that all hope is lost, as Anders does?

[ReallyRue]

I still don't know what to think about Anders.

I'm not sure whether he would have done something so extreme without the corrupted form of Justice inside him. He said that the two of them were practically the same person by the end of the game, so the almost inhuman action he took could have been influenced by the spirit's twisted logic. On the other hand he might have just been very desperate and frustrated that he had spent ten years in Kirkwall and nothing had ever changed - Orsino and Meredith fight, it dies down, but all the tensions continue. Blowing up the Chantry would force mages who were previously compliant into action.

What I wonder is how he thought this would help mages at all. Where are they supposed to go from there? Even if they rebelled and fled the Circles, what are they supposed to do? Where are they supposed to go? If the rest of Thedas (bar Tevinter) united against them, the mages would die. Are they supposed to flee to Tevinter? Or go to ground and all live as apostates, hoping they won't be hunted down? How would that give them any more rights than they had in the Circle? I can only conclude that the spirit and desperation has twisted his thinking beyond logic.

[Patriciachr34]

IncendiarySheep wrote...

Ingu wrote...

Mm, though that's where many people would argue otherwise - you never 'need' to kill innocents! D=

Mmm...

I guess I come from a different place because don't see the Chantry as 'innocents' and I struggle to see this as a 'terrorist' attack.  Terrorism is about causing fear by targeting soft civilian targets in order to cause maximum disruption amongst those not directly involved in the conflict.  It's purpose is terror. But the Chantry is not an office block or a market square.   It an military-political organisation which holds more power than most governments.  It is made quite clear that Alistair - as king of Feraldan - can not influence them to improve conditions in the Circle.  That was the turning point for my apostate mage.  This organisation trains young men and women to hate mages.  Indeed, it sanctions the enslavment and abuse of mages, and apparently turns a blind eye to their rape and abuse, and it is above the law.  Is it any wonder that mages are using increasingly desperate measures to try to claw black some degree of control over their lives?

I have no doubt the grand cleric is a good woman, but she is also blinded by a preference for peace at all costs.  Good intentions, including hers, can have catastrophic consequences.  Certainly, she doesn't deserve to die, but how many good mages - and templars for that matter - have died because she did nothing but wring her hands and trust in the Maker?  How many civilians have been killed in the crossfire already? How long was Meredith to be allowed to continue her tyranny?  How was there to be any compromise, when Meredith had no intention of bending, and the Grand Cleric would not reign her in?  The only higher authority seems to be the Divine, and Leliana made it quite clear what she thinks.

I'm not suggesting Anders did the right thing.  I actually think what he did was stupid (so stupid that it almost ruined the story for me - it simply made no sense at all and instantly disrupted my suspension of disbelief), counterproductive and utterly mad.  However, it is not akin to a terrorist bombing of innocent civilians.  It was a distinctly political move, an act of desperation, against a group of religious zealots with immense political and military power, and no (active) higher authority.  The Chantry rules the lives of mages, and many others, but it is not democratic, is not bound by a bill of rights (and as no respect for them) and it often seems that it could not care less whether its charges live or die.  The Chanty trains templars and its doctrine gives them their only legitimacy.  It can not wash its hands of what the templars and their mad dog leader do by preaching tolerance.  If  the Chantry and its priests will not reign in their representatives, let alone protect their charges, then they are not innocent, they are accomplices.
 
Given everything that happened, I really struggle to see the situation in Kirkwall could have ended in anything but disaster and the death of at least some innocent people ... be they mages, templars, clerics, city guards or civilians caught in the crossfire.

I must say your argument gives me pause.  I've really never considered the passive agressive nature of the Chantry before.  For some reason, my brain disconnected the whole military arm of the Chantry angle.  Thank you.

[Schala00neg]

This quote went through my mind when I reached that part in Act 3:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure." Thomas Jefferson

One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. It all depends on your perspective.