350 réponses à ce sujet

[AndreaDraco]

I will post here what I posted elsewhere.

I obviously spared Anders and agree to run away with him. Before I explain, let me say that, one way or another, that scene was incredibly written. It was truly magnificent in my opinion. Every single line of dialogue was outstanding, from Orsino shouting "You fool! You've doomed us all!" to Anders saying "I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise."

In my opinion, Anders did the right thing. Surely, it's horrible. But it was necessary. There's only one bloodless revolution in history, and that came after an incredibly bloody war. It was inevitable. Elthina was a petty old woman who believed that sit on her hands and do nothing was the will of the Maker. By doing so, she was de facto allowing Meredith to torture the Mages. I won't mourn her loss. Not a bit. And yes, it's a tragedy that the Chantry bombing made casualties even in the civilian people, but, like as I said, it was inevitable. Anders is a visionary, a revolutionary, an incredibly brave man who fights for freedom no matter what. His actions may be questionable, but his intent his pure. If you romance him, in the end he says: "Ten years, a hundred years from now, someone like me will love someone like you, and there will be no templars to tear them apart." This is a world worth fighting for and if it takes his act to set this revolution in motion - the ending clearly states that Circles throughout Thedas started rebelling as well, after what happened in Kirkwall - then so be it. If he would have said to me what he was planning, Hawke, initially, would have tried to convince not to, but in the end he would have helped me nonetheless.

His actions have a striking resemblance with what Karl Marx worte in 1848 in his Manifesto of the Communist Party: "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. WORKING MEN OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!"

With just a bit of word-tweaking, these words seem to come straight from Anders' very own manifesto: "Mages disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the Chantry and the Templars tremble at a Mage revolution. Mages have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. MAGES OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!"

That DA2 manages to be so nuanced and thought provoking it's a testament to its quality.

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 28 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...
Anders is a visionary

What's his vision? Not freedom rethoric. What's his actual vision and plan?

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
Anders is a visionary

What's his vision? Not freedom rethoric. What's his actual vision and plan?

He says so himself: "I removed the chance of compromise, because there's no compromise."

He knew that Gran Cleric Elthina was going to stall forever and that Meredith would have eventually destroyed the mages no matter what (Orsino talks about the Rite of Annullment during "Best Served Cold"). By removing the chance of compromise (the Chantry), he forced a war and, like Varric says in the end, he was successful because Circles throughout Thedas started rebelling against the Templars' oppression.

[Camenae]

AndreaDraco wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
Anders is a visionary

What's his vision? Not freedom rethoric. What's his actual vision and plan?

He says so himself: "I removed the chance of compromise, because there's no compromise."

He knew that Gran Cleric Elthina was going to stall forever and that Meredith would have eventually destroyed the mages no matter what (Orsino talks about the Rite of Annullment during "Best Served Cold"). By removing the chance of compromise (the Chantry), he forced a war and, like Varric says in the end, he was successful because Circles throughout Thedas started rebelling against the Templars' oppression.

You didn't answer his question.  KnightofPhoenix asked for something OTHER than rhetoric.  Removing the compromise, check.  Fight a war, check...To use a line from Dude, Where's My Car: And then???

[Herr Uhl]

AndreaDraco wrote...

He says so himself: "I removed the chance of compromise, because there's no compromise."

He knew that Gran Cleric Elthina was going to stall forever and that Meredith would have eventually destroyed the mages no matter what (Orsino talks about the Rite of Annullment during "Best Served Cold"). By removing the chance of compromise (the Chantry), he forced a war and, like Varric says in the end, he was successful because Circles throughout Thedas started rebelling against the Templars' oppression.

Which would mean that Elthina was every single grand cleric and Meredith every single knight commander? Since that was his motivation to try and spark a continental-wide war.

[AndreaDraco]

Well, he asked what his plan was. And I explained what his plan was.

There's no rethoric in what I said. I purposedly left out everything about "freedom"

[AndreaDraco]

Herr Uhl wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

He says so himself: "I removed the chance of compromise, because there's no compromise."

He knew that Gran Cleric Elthina was going to stall forever and that Meredith would have eventually destroyed the mages no matter what (Orsino talks about the Rite of Annullment during "Best Served Cold"). By removing the chance of compromise (the Chantry), he forced a war and, like Varric says in the end, he was successful because Circles throughout Thedas started rebelling against the Templars' oppression.

Which would mean that Elthina was every single grand cleric and Meredith every single knight commander? Since that was his motivation to try and spark a continental-wide war.

No, it was the beginning. By forcing the war in Kirkwall, he hoped that others would fight too. And they did, apparently.

[Camenae]

I think the question was more about "What are his plans for after the dust settles?" Otherwise, provoking a war without at least a clear idea of how you're going to proceed afterwards is very irresponsible. It's like in behavioral science, you learn that you can pretty much never train an animal out of an undesirable behavior, such as barking, aggression, etc., short of just beating them into submission (which I'm guessing you don't want to do), without teaching them what they SHOULD do instead.

[Malanek]

Camenae wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
Anders is a visionary

What's his vision? Not freedom rethoric. What's his actual vision and plan?

He says so himself: "I removed the chance of compromise, because there's no compromise."

He knew that Gran Cleric Elthina was going to stall forever and that Meredith would have eventually destroyed the mages no matter what (Orsino talks about the Rite of Annullment during "Best Served Cold"). By removing the chance of compromise (the Chantry), he forced a war and, like Varric says in the end, he was successful because Circles throughout Thedas started rebelling against the Templars' oppression.

You didn't answer his question.  KnightofPhoenix asked for something OTHER than rhetoric.  Removing the compromise, check.  Fight a war, check...To use a line from Dude, Where's My Car: And then???

His plan was to get the mages, across Thedas, to stand up and fight for their freedom.

[KAAurious]

I don't think you can justify Anders. That's his tragedy. Anders seems to believe in the freedom that all mages should have, that the Maker would have removed magic from the world if he/she dubbed it to be "evil". The problem is, not every mage has the control to resist giving into temptation. Individuals born into poverty, would most likely be more inclined to succumb to a desire for power.

There's also the matter of the Tevinter Imperium.

Part of me isn't even entirely sure that Anders is actually possessed of a "good spirit". If you question him in Act 3 at the end of the "Justice" quest, he begins to confide in Hawke that he's been blacking out more often. That while he says that it's "too late" he begins to say that he could go back and undo his little spell in the Chantry. Only then, Justice takes over and tells Hawke to get the hell out. (Not exact words, just gist)

This reminds me of the codex entry for demonic possession:

"Strongest of all demons are those of pride. These are the most feared creatures to loose upon the world: Masters of magic and in possession of vast intellect, they are the true schemers. It is they who seek most strongly to possess mages, and will bring other demons across the Veil in numbers to achieve their own ends—although what that might be has never been discovered. A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world."

Sounds familiar? Doesn't it?

[AndreaDraco]

Camenae wrote...

I think the question was more about "What are his plans for after the dust settles?" 

The revolution would entail a major rebellion throughout Thedas (maybe with the involvement of the Imperium? I'm speculating, but Tevinter was mentioned so many times in the game that I can't help but wonder). If every Circle rebelled against the Templars, what could they do? Invoke the Right of Annullment on every Tower?

Of course, we still have to see, hopefully in future DLCs, expansions or sequels, what this plan will play out and if Mages will indeed gain their freedom.

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 28 mars 2011 - 08:30 .

[Tripedius]

This has the wrong title, Anders actions could never be justified. Terrorism (which it is) is always wrong no matter the circumstances. Not to drag real world politics in this, but saying that Anders actions could be justified is like saying 9/11 or the terrorist actions of the palestines could be justified.

[Malanek]

Camenae wrote...

I think the question was more about "What are his plans for after the dust settles?" Otherwise, provoking a war without at least a clear idea of how you're going to proceed afterwards is very irresponsible. It's like in behavioral science, you learn that you can pretty much never train an animal out of an undesirable behavior, such as barking, aggression, etc., short of just beating them into submission (which I'm guessing you don't want to do), without teaching them what they SHOULD do instead.

Starting the rebellion is always the biggest step. After that it moves out of his hands, way beyond his control.

[AndreaDraco]

Tripedius wrote...

This has the wrong title, Anders actions could never be justified. Terrorism (which it is) is always wrong no matter the circumstances. Not to drag real world politics in this, but saying that Anders actions could be justified is like saying 9/11 or the terrorist actions of the palestines could be justified.

I think there's a huge difference between terrorism and revolution.

Would you call the French Revolution an act of terrorism?

Terrorists try to spread fear and terror by choosing their targets to maximize civilian losses.

Anders did nothing of the sort. He targeted an institution, more than anything else.

[Deztyn]

Anders is a half-mad abomination, whose narrow mindedness and lack of foresight is more likely to doom than help the people he claims to speak for. If any good comes from his actions it will only be because better people than he are able to make something of the disaster he creates.

Seriously, his 'plan' is essentially this:
1) Build magic bomb.
2) Blow up chantry
3) Die.
4) ???
5) Profit.

I can understand sympathy for his cause, but not the blind praise of his actions.

[Camenae]

"Freedom for mages" is the wrong term. "Equal treatment for mages" sounds more like what Anders was going for. Given the way medieval-type societies work, most people's ideas for "Mage freedom" would mean giving mages far more freedoms than the average person in Thedas actually had.

Freedoms in medieval society =/= freedom in modern-day western society.

[eye basher]

anders is just a got used like the tool he is by the tevinter which are more likely behind the so called revolution.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Well, he asked what his plan was. And I explained what his plan was.

There's no rethoric in what I said. I purposedly left out everything about "freedom"

No, I mean the plan after blowing stuff up. What's his vision?
What kind of society does he want to build? What are his plans to build it?
That's a vision.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...
Would you call the French Revolution an act of terrorism?

Terrorists try to spread fear and terror by choosing their targets to maximize civilian losses.

Anders did nothing of the sort. He targeted an institution, more than anything else.

The French Revolutionaries certainly terrorized the Aristocracy and the clergy. Before terrorizing each other in the Terror.

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The French Revolutionaries certainly terrorized the Aristocracy and the clergy. Before terrorizing each other in the Terror.

I agree. But that happened when Robespierre went to far with his love for the guillotine.  At the beginning, when the Revolutionaries took the Bastille, and not without bloodshed, it was an act of freedom, not an act of terrorism.

[blauwvis]

Is it possible to draw a distinction between his vision and his freedom rhetoric? He wants a world where mages are free and equal. That's the vision. It's rather indistinct; apparently if he's rivalmanced you learn that he's working on a manifesto, but I don't believe he completes it, and having taken the friendly path myself I don't know if you ever learn much about its contents.

As far as planning goes, he flat out admits that strategy and setting long-term goals are neither his nor Justice/Vengeance's strong suits. He wants to light the spark that sets the world on fire, and at that at least he is successful. I don't get the impression that he's thought about it much beyond that; he clearly doesn't expect to survive the aftermath, thus winning the war and actually creating the world that he envisions will be someone else's problem.

I'm deeply conflicted about his actions. Blowing up the Chantry was reprehensible, but years of talking had accomplished nothing. Even Cullen expressed the sentiment that the Grand Cleric was just stringing the mages along with her talk of neutrality, ever holding out the hope that she might one day side with them, when in fact she never would. He certainly wanted her to – he wanted to talk to her in Act 2, but nothing came of it, and in Act 3 he seemed genuine in his hope that silver-tongued Hawke could finally convince her to take a stand. But that, of course, wasn't going to happen. Killing Meredith would only have seen another Knight-Commander put in her place, and perhaps the lot of the Circle mages in Kirkwall would have improved, the status quo would have been maintained. He wanted to destroy the entire system, not just a particularly harsh manifestation of it.

His actions force the mages to fight or die. Submission is no longer an option. If it dooms the mages, then so be it – better to die on your feet than live on your knees and all that. Incredibly selfish and fanatical? Absolutely. But my femHawke still spared and ran away with him. If he had expressed no remorse for his actions, it would have been a different story – an indication that there was nothing left of the deeply conflicted but good man she fell in love with and I found so morbidly fascinating. Taking his entire character arc from Awakenings to this point, he is certainly one of the most tragic characters I've encountered in a video game.

[Malanek]

Camenae wrote...

"Freedom for mages" is the wrong term. "Equal treatment for mages" sounds more like what Anders was going for. Given the way medieval-type societies work, most people's ideas for "Mage freedom" would mean giving mages far more freedoms than the average person in Thedas actually had.

Freedoms in medieval society =/= freedom in modern-day western society.

I'm not sure how (or why) you are defining freedom. Arhuing over the definition seems pretty pointless. The term can have many meanings but at the moment Mages are severely constrained by the chantry and templars. Using the term "freedom" is a perfectly valid way to describe the removal of these constraints. That is what Anders ultimately wants.

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, I mean the plan after blowing stuff up. What's his vision?
What kind of society does he want to build? What are his plans to build it?
That's a vision.

Well, if you romance him, he clearly states his vision in his final conversation in the Gallows: "Ten years, a hundred years from now, someone like me will love someone like you, and there will be no templars to tear them apart."

This is his vision. And it's clearly intertwined with his background and with what happened to Karl in Act 1.

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 28 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The French Revolutionaries certainly terrorized the Aristocracy and the clergy. Before terrorizing each other in the Terror.

I agree. But that happened when Robespierre went to far with his love for the guillotine.  At the beginning, when the Revolutionaries took the Bastille, and not without bloodshed, it was an act of freedom, not an act of terrorism.

That's one act. The Revolution as a whole was based on terror and I'd argue it was inevitably so. Not only guillotines. But the massacre at Vendee too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, I mean the plan after blowing stuff up. What's his vision?
What kind of society does he want to build? What are his plans to build it?
That's a vision.

Well, if you romance him, he clearly states his vision in his final conversation in the Gallows: "Ten years, a hundred years from now, someone like me will love someone like you, and there will be no templars to tear them apart."

This is his vision. And it's clearly intertwined with his background and with what happened to Karl in Act 1.

That's not a vision. Again, simple rethoric. 
What are his actual thoughout plans? How does he plan to make 99% of non-mages tolerate and accept mages? How does he plan to combat possessions (ignoring that he is a pseudo-abomination)? How does he plan to even win the war? If the Tevinter Imperium is his inspiration (and he is naive), how does he plan to establish it?

Quesions upon questions left unanswered. Probably because Anders, in his foolishness, didn't even bother to think.

A visionary for me is one with an actual plan. And qualifications that come with it. Anders has no plan and no qualifications.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 08:57 .