350 réponses à ce sujet

[Tripedius]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Tripedius wrote...

This has the wrong title, Anders actions could never be justified. Terrorism (which it is) is always wrong no matter the circumstances. Not to drag real world politics in this, but saying that Anders actions could be justified is like saying 9/11 or the terrorist actions of the palestines could be justified.

I think there's a huge difference between terrorism and revolution.

Would you call the French Revolution an act of terrorism?

Terrorists try to spread fear and terror by choosing their targets to maximize civilian losses.

Anders did nothing of the sort. He targeted an institution, more than anything else.

I beg to differ. Attacking your institutions head on is something else than bombing a building full of innocents. The bastile was a prison, the chantry a church. Actions against the people is terrorism, attacks against the military/ armed guards is something else. Would Anders have blown up the Templers or even the Circle (freeing the mages otherwise it would be pointless) it would have been a revolution. The high priestess of the Chantry holds a neutral position, which you discuss with her while Anders does his thing. She fears open war and isn't oblivious to the pligth of the mages. She could have been the one thing holding back annuliation in the first place.

[AndreaDraco]

@ KnightofPhoenix:

I disagree. That's not simple rethoric. That's a vision.

A vision, at least in my opinion, doesn't necessarily come with actual thoughtout plans. It's a spark that set things in motion.

He has the power to ignite this spark. Presuming that he must have the power to control how the whole world respond is a bit too much for me.

Circles are now rebelling throughout Thedas, mages finally realizing that they don't have to submit to the Templars' yoke. What world will spring from this revolution? No one can know it. But it was a vision, Anders' in this case, that allowed this revolution and thus, at least, the possibility of a change for the better.

Then, mind you, I'm not saying that he was entirely aware of all the consequences. We don't know how much Vengeance interefered with him, how much it was Vengeance's plan to blow up the Chantry and how much, on the other hand, it was Anders'.

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 28 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[TobiTobsen]

But he has no long term plan. He just blows the chantry up, starts a war that's not even wanted by every mage and hopes somebody stabs him in the back so he can be a martyr. He just wants vengeance for his ****ty life and drags everybody else down with him.

[PsychoWARD23]

He deserves to die, end of story.

[Camenae]

I'm sorry I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but it's "rhetoric."

I think if he was going to take the decision out of every mage's hands, then he should have had, if not a complete plan, then at least A plan. Otherwise it's irresponsible to take the decision out of other people's hands.

He planned on dying and being a martyr, so that's good for him. But what about the average mage now stuck to finish out the war he started? And then to try to live life afterwards? : ( He owed it to his fellow mages to help them through what will be an insanely difficult time, any way you look at it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...

@ KnightofPhoenix:

I disagree. That's not simple rethoric. That's a vision.

A vision, at least in my opinion, doesn't necessarily come with actual thoughtout plans. It's a spark that set things in motion.

Well when I think visionary, I think of people like Augustus, Abd al-Rahman al-Dakhil, Napoleon, Abu Ja'far al-Mansur, Bismarck, Prophet Muhammad...etc.

DA example, Bhelen.

Not people like Anders. But rather individuals with a clear idea of what kind of society they want to build and how. And with the will and capacity to do it.

He has the power to ignite this spark. Presuming that he must have the power to control how the whole world respond is a bit too much for me.

If he doesn't have any kind of control or following or any leadership capabilities (he admits it), then on what basis is he deciding the fate of all mages? 

Circles are now rebelling throughout Thedas, mages finally realizing that they don't have to submit to the Templars' yoke. What world will spring from this revolution? No one can know it. But it was a vision, Anders' in this case, that allowed this revolution and thus, at least, the possibility of a change for the better.

Even if it changes for the better, Anders should recieve no credit. It's only the people who think and plan who should recieve credit. Blowing stuff up and hoping that others fix the mess he created is not the mark of a visionary for me.

More like the act of a reckless fool.

Then, mind you, I'm not saying that he was entirely aware of all the consequences. We don't know how much Vengeance interefered with him, how much it was Vengeance's plan to blow up the Chantry and how much, on the other hand, it was Anders'.

It was neither and both. By that time, Anders and Vengeance were one and the codex says that Anders was becoming more and more paranoid and was losing control.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 09:13 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Agreed With OP top too bottom there is no compromise this cycle has gone on for 1000years, which pretty much means there is no compromise, you can't reason with the Templars or chantry. You can't reason with religious fanatics looks what at sister Patrice, the vicounts son was assassinated when joining and accepting the Qun. Meredith condemned the circle too death as soon as an "apostate" destroyed the chantry. I say kill all the Templars let this imaginary maker sort em out. Anders was completely right " there is no compromise!"

[AndreaDraco]

Camenae wrote...

He planned on dying and being a martyr, so that's good for him. But what about the average mage now stuck to finish out the war he started? And then to try to live life afterwards? : ( He owed it to his fellow mages to help them through what will be an insanely difficult time, any way you look at it.

I don't think he planned on dying. He thought Hawke would never spare him, no matter how close they were. But if Hawke indeed spares him, his final words are all about fighting the war to achieve his - yes, I use the word again - vision.

[TobiTobsen]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Camenae wrote...

He planned on dying and being a martyr, so that's good for him. But what about the average mage now stuck to finish out the war he started? And then to try to live life afterwards? : ( He owed it to his fellow mages to help them through what will be an insanely difficult time, any way you look at it.

I don't think he planned on dying. He thought Hawke would never spare him, no matter how close they were. But if Hawke indeed spares him, his final words are all about fighting the war to achieve his - yes, I use the word again - vision.

I'm pretty sure the other four mage fraternities besides the libertarians are really thrilled about his plans for all of them.

"Hey loyalist! I just started a war against the templars and the chantry! In the name of every single mage on Thedas.... what do you mean you like the circle? lol... anyway... you have to fight for your life now, while I chicken out and die. cya!"

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well when I think visionary, I think of people like Augustus, Abd al-Rahman al-Dakhil, Napoleon, Abu Ja'far al-Mansur, Bismarck, Prophet Muhammad...etc.

DA example, Bhelen.

Not people like Anders. People with a clear idea of what kind of society they want to build and how. And with the will and capacity to do it.

Well, to be fair, as King of Orzammar, Bhelen had the means to transform his vision into reality. Thinking that Anders alone could do such a thing is too much.

I think he's a visionary because it's his vision - or his dream, or his hope, or his delusion - about the civil rights of mages, so to speak, that can allow the world to change.

Could have he planned a better way to achieve this vision of his? Maybe. But what? The war had to start somewhere.

[vigna]

Well, I didn't like Anders or Justice in awakening so I'd be biased.

Remember Mages are living weapons. Guns don't kill people, but people using guns can kill people.In the case of Mages the person and the gun are one and the same. I think keeping them in check is a good idea.
People fear what they can't control.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...
Well, to be fair, as King of Orzammar, Bhelen had the means to transform his vision into reality. Thinking that Anders alone could do such a thing is too much.

Then he shouldn't think he is qualified to make that choice.

And some of the examples I listed started off as nothing (one of them is a revolutionary). But they planned. They rallied people. They organised. They struggled. And they built.

Anders didn't do anything except blow up a chantry.

Could have he planned a better way to achieve this vision of his? Maybe. But what? The war had to start somewhere.

Why didn't he try to lead an organized resistance movement? Noit just for making mages escape, but an actual resistance movement. Why not try to see if the Templars could be divided from within, which they could (of course Anders being as paranoid as he was could only see enemies)? 

Or better yet, why not try to rally support from commoners, nobles, guardsmen and Templars against Meredith and use that as a foundation for gradual reform?

At least anything that evolved more effort, both mental and physical, than "boom".

If he can't do any of that? Then he is clearly not qualified to make a choice vis a vis an issue that is much bigger than him, and should just be satisfied with running away like he always has.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 09:24 .

[Lianaar]

AndreaDraco wrote...
Could have he planned a better way to achieve this vision of his? Maybe. But what? The war had to start somewhere.

What we mean is that in order to have a revolution and be great about it, you need to consider the goal. A realistic goal. That also includes asking why the hell the problem exists, and addressing the source issues behind the problem. And the problem is: 
- mages are dangerous
- demons are prone to abuse them
- people fear mages

So, how does Anders idea of free mages address the issues which lead to the various solutions (be that the Tevinter rule of mages, the Qunari Sarabaas or the Chantry's Templars)? 

It doesn't. And thus he wasn't a revolutionarist. He was a catalyst for a war. Even if this war will solve the problems, it will not be him, that made the revolution. It will be those who found an answer to the problems and worked out a solution and fought persistent and long enough to achieve that goal. Where not only mages can live without fear and slavery, but all the non-mages too. Anders didn't give a damn about non-mages. In a way that is pretty oppressive for him, because he killed a bunch of people and started a war without consideration of the general population.

Without an achievable goal this war is but a pointless massacre of people.

[Alelsa]

Just looking at the title of this thread I can't help but imagine someone trying to justify Anders in the same way we'd fully justify text in a word processing document, by putting him in a room and stretching him on a rack until he touched the wall at both sides...

(Not an Anders hater, it was just an amusing mental image)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lianaar wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
Could have he planned a better way to achieve this vision of his? Maybe. But what? The war had to start somewhere.

What we mean is that in order to have a revolution and be great about it, you need to consider the goal. A realistic goal. That also includes asking why the hell the problem exists, and addressing the source issues behind the problem. And the problem is: 
- mages are dangerous
- demons are prone to abuse them
- people fear mages

So, how does Anders idea of free mages address the issues which lead to the various solutions (be that the Tevinter rule of mages, the Qunari Sarabaas or the Chantry's Templars)? 

Some banters suggest he doesn't even care.
IIRC it went something like this:
Someone, I am not sure who but not a mage: "Mages are dangerous"
Anders: "Only to you"

Which shows me that Anders not only does he not care, but he also fails to realize that mages are dangerous to themselves, via possession. Of course being an abomination himself, it's not surprising.

Excellent post

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 09:32 .

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

@ KnightofPhoenix:

I disagree. That's not simple rethoric. That's a vision.

A vision, at least in my opinion, doesn't necessarily come with actual thoughtout plans. It's a spark that set things in motion.

Well when I think visionary, I think of people like Augustus, Abd al-Rahman al-Dakhil, Napoleon, Abu Ja'far al-Mansur, Bismarck, Prophet Muhammad...etc.

DA example, Bhelen.

Not people like Anders. But rather individuals with a clear idea of what kind of society they want to build and how. And with the will and capacity to do it.

He has the power to ignite this spark. Presuming that he must have the power to control how the whole world respond is a bit too much for me.

If he doesn't have any kind of control or following or any leadership capabilities (he admits it), then on what basis is he deciding the fate of all mages? 

Circles are now rebelling throughout Thedas, mages finally realizing that they don't have to submit to the Templars' yoke. What world will spring from this revolution? No one can know it. But it was a vision, Anders' in this case, that allowed this revolution and thus, at least, the possibility of a change for the better.

Even if it changes for the better, Anders should recieve no credit. It's only the people who think and plan who should recieve credit. Blowing stuff up and hoping that others fix the mess he created is not the mark of a visionary for me.

More like the act of a reckless fool.

Then, mind you, I'm not saying that he was entirely aware of all the consequences. We don't know how much Vengeance interefered with him, how much it was Vengeance's plan to blow up the Chantry and how much, on the other hand, it was Anders'.

It was neither and both. By that time, Anders and Vengeance were one and the codex says that Anders was becoming more and more paranoid and was losing control.

Great job, KoP.

[AndreaDraco]

Knight, I completely agree with the idea of a mage resistance and I think it's what he was trying to achieve with the Underground Mages or whatever they were called. I also think, though, that the situation was so dire that anything short of "boom" couldn't have had the same effect.

Then, let me state again that I'm not actually try to justify him. He was clearly paranoid and couldn't see the good in some Templars even when forced to (although he later changed his mind about Thrask). What I'm saying is that he didn't blow up the Chantry out of terrorism, out of his will to harm the Grand Cleric herself or out of a desire to kill innocent people. He was trying to achieve a goal. And yes, many great revolutionaries had a plan all along, but when the Italian cities rebelled against the Austro-Hungaric rule - sorry, being Italian this is the example to always come to my mind - they did so out of spontaneity. We didn't exist as a nation until 1861. Before we were dominated by foreign monarchs. Yet we rebelled. We fought for our indipendence and after we overthrew the foreign dominatio, we build our nation.

This is what I see here: the act of a desperate man believing that a change was possible.

[Kyriani Agrivar]

Some banters suggest he doesn't even care.
IIRC it went something like this:
Someone, I am not sure who but not a mages: "Mages are dangerous"
Anders: "Only to you"

Which shows me that Anders not only does he not care, but he also fails to realize that mages are dangerous to themselves, via possession. Of course being an abomination himself, it's not surprising.

Excellent post

I think you might be reading that banter a bit out of context. The discussion you are referring to is between Anders and Aveline. And she's basically asking him about mages because the guard are often the first line of authroity who have to deal with apostates in the city. Anders's comment is saying they are dangerous only to her because the guard in her scenario is trying to capture said apostate. Anders knows how dangerous mages can be. But he feels that mages wouldn't be as dangerous as they are if they weren't kept as veritable prisoners and slaves to the circle/templars.

He may actually be right. Mind you I believe that some sort of oversight is necessary due to the dangers a mage is forced to live with but I believe the focus of the templars is wrong. The templars shouldn't be trained to simply counter and kill mages. They should primarily be trained to deal with demons and to PROTECT mages from possession rather than just wait till they get possessed and kill them. That's just my opinion though. If mages weren't so much ripped from their family but say required to go to "school" to learn how to control their powers but still allowed to go out, visit their families, live real lives they'd probably be less dangerous and less prone to possession.

Consider this, all of the opression of the circle/templar model actually propogates the very thing the chantry wants to avoid. It provides the motive for mages to seek out demons and to learn blood magic. If mages could see templars as an ally, an organization that looks out for them rather than hunts them and destroys families, then you'd probably see less mages seeing them as the enemy. If mages weren't so cut off from normal society, if they got to grow and evelope socially with family and friends (even with oversight of some sort) then you'd probably see them less prone to turning to dark arts or demons because they are already happy and have the things they desire.

The issues between templars and mages is of the chantry's own making from my perspective and if they had handled things differently I bet all of Thedas would be a better place.

[TEWR]

Anders is right, plain and simple. But I'll give my reasons on that so I'm just not sticking with the plain and simple part.

• 1st: Mages have been treated horribly for thousands of years by people who claim to know what Andraste's words meant when, really, only Andraste herself knew what she meant. And you can't say this is false, Anders says that Templars will beat and rape mages. And they have to take it. If they fight back, whose word would be taken? The Mage's or the Templar's? Answer: The Templar's. And then that mage who only wanted it to stop is most likely made Tranquil, if not killed.
• 2nd: There is a self-policing force of mages. The Mages' Collective. Here, mages live the freedom they deserve, if a bit on the cautious side, while the actions of them are still kept under watch (you're given a mission by the Collective to kill Maleficar).
• 3rd let's look at how Anders handled the situation. At first, it was just about him being a part of a Mage Resistance that escorted mages out of the Gallows. There was no open war. Rather the war was a very sealed off one only known to a scant few dozen people. But the Templars actions grew more and more ruthless, and this inevitably pushed Anders hands into action. Most of these actions happened under Meredith's command, but others like Ser Alrik were doing things of their own volition. Mages being made Tranquil when they've passed their Harrowing. Why? Because they maybe hit their foot on a Templar, questioned something, etc. Was Anders supposed to sit idly by and let this continue? No he couldn't.
• 4th: Let's examine Justice. We are told that he is a spirit of Justice who, due to Anders' hatred of the Templars, has been warped into a demon of Vengeance. Yet, for those who play the Dissent quest in Act 2, Justice himself proclaims to Ella the Mage that he is no demon. Maybe he is both a demon and spirit, intertwined as one. Or maybe Vengeance is the darker side of the virtue of Justice, not rendering him a demon, but twisting his sense of self so that Justice cannot know what justice truly is. It's hard to say, but Justice and Anders are now one being. How many things that Anders said were actually Justice speaking without the obvious changes we don't know.
• 5th: We shall examine Anders' attack on the Chantry. Now yes he blew up the Chantry into little tiny masonry bits and killed Maker knows how many innocent people, but look at it this way:
  
  Meredith would've invoked the Rite of Tranquility at some point in her term as an insane Knight Commander, and would the mages have fought back? Most likely not. Anders however pushed that moment to come sooner, forcing Orsino to fight back against Meredith. And he was right. As long as the Chantry exists, mages will know no freedom, no love, and will always be persecuted for what they were born with. Man sees it as a curse. Qunari see it as coming from demons. But the truth is it's something that they are born with. They can't help that they are what they are. Should they be ripped from their families because of that? No. Were Anders' actions extreme? Yes, but extremity is sometimes needed for the right things to come into existence. Could there have been another way to force the mages to fight back against Meredith? Maker only knows.
  
  I will edit this as needed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2011 - 09:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Knight, I completely agree with the idea of a mage resistance and I think it's what he was trying to achieve with the Underground Mages or whatever they were called. I also think, though, that the situation was so dire that anything short of "boom" couldn't have had the same effect.

I don't think he tried hard enough. An important reason is that he is struggling to barely control himself (and fails).

Which is also why I don't think he is qualified to be a visionary. Because at best, he is a quasi-abomination. He is not sane. Or sober.

Then, let me state again that I'm not actually try to justify him. He was clearly paranoid and couldn't see the good in some Templars even when forced to (although he later changed his mind about Thrask). What I'm saying is that he didn't blow up the Chantry out of terrorism, out of his will to harm the Grand Cleric herself or out of a desire to kill innocent people. He was trying to achieve a goal. And yes, many great revolutionaries had a plan all along, but when the Italian cities rebelled against the Austro-Hungaric rule - sorry, being Italian this is the example to always come to my mind - they did so out of spontaneity. We didn't exist as a nation until 1861. Before we were dominated by foreign monarchs. Yet we rebelled. We fought for our indipendence and after we overthrew the foreign dominatio, we build our nation.

That was a popular uprising though. It wasn't one man deciding the fate of a minority that probably barely makes up 1% of the population, and then expects this 1% to fight against the other 99%.

I don't think terrorism is a goal in and of itself. "Terrorists" do what they do for a goal, whether realistic or not.
But I personally like to avoid sensistive and controversial words. Especially ones that I do not find are that pertinent from an academic perspective.

This is what I see here: the act of a desperate man believing that a change was possible.

Yes, I understand. I even sympthasize.

I still think he is a fool.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 09:54 .

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes, I understand. I even sympthasize.

I still think he is a fool.

I'm not saying he isn't

What was the saying about prophet and madman?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But I personally like to avoid
sensistive and controversial words. Especially ones that I do not find
are that pertinent from an academic perspective.

I agree once again. I used it only because I frequently see it here on the boards, from people lambasting what Anders did.

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 28 mars 2011 - 09:57 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That was a popular uprising though. It wasn't one man deciding the fate of a minority that probably barely makes up 1% of the population, and then expects this 1% to fight against the other 99%.

Varric says that even the Templars have abandoned the Chantry. And you know once Meredith's actions are revealed, more people will side with the Mages over the Chantry. Also, I'd say mages make up.... 15-20% of the people in Thedas. Tevinter is practically filled to the brim with mages.

DA3 is probably going to be the next Exalted March

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2011 - 09:56 .

[OldMan91]

Some banters suggest he doesn't even care.
IIRC it went something like this:
Someone, I am not sure who but not a mages: "Mages are dangerous"
Anders: "Only to you"

That would be Leliana who said that.

Leliana: The whole world is watching Kirkwall. If it falls to magic, none of us are safe.
Anders: None of you.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That was a popular uprising though. It wasn't one man deciding the fate of a minority that probably barely makes up 1% of the population, and then expects this 1% to fight against the other 99%.

Varric says that even the Templars have abandoned the Chantry. And you know once Meredith's actions are revealed, more people will side with the Mages over the Chantry. Also, I'd say mages make up.... 15-20% of the people in Thedas. Tevinter is practically filled to the brim with mages.

DA3 is probably going to be the next Exalted March

15-20%? Then Ferelden would need a much larger circle. Much much larger.

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That was a popular uprising though. It wasn't one man deciding the fate of a minority that probably barely makes up 1% of the population, and then expects this 1% to fight against the other 99%.

Varric says that even the Templars have abandoned the Chantry. And you know once Meredith's actions are revealed, more people will side with the Mages over the Chantry. Also, I'd say mages make up.... 15-20% of the people in Thedas. Tevinter is practically filled to the brim with mages.

DA3 is probably going to be the next Exalted March

15-20%? Then Ferelden would need a much larger circle. Much much larger.

Thedas is a huge continent. Plus who knows how many apostates there actually are.