350 réponses à ce sujet

[Lianaar]

Kyriani Agrivar wrote...
The templars shouldn't be trained to simply counter and kill mages. They should primarily be trained to deal with demons and to PROTECT mages from possession rather than just wait till they get possessed and kill them.

Actually Templars serve dual purpose: save people from mages, and save mages from people. Many of the Templars know this (this they were not trained otherwise) and live accordingly. The thing is, some people who get in an authority position don't know how to handle power and get corrupted by it. It doesn't need to be a Templar in power (like Sir Alrik), and those people might as well be mean bastards even if there were no Templars, killing and torturing people anyway. 
Trying to find RL references, that we can relate to better. From time to time we see pictures, hear news about teachers, who beat up kids, humilate them and isntead of educating them, mentally and physically tortures them. However horrible this is, and naturally something that must be stopped, it is not the school institute that most be stopped (even though schools do give authority to teachers over children), but the individual people that abuse their position.

While we see Kirkwall, what we actually see is what happens if the break and control system gets corrupted, so the individuum, that needs to be stopped is the one that ensures the stopping out deviants (so she should be the one stopping herself). Thus many rights that otherwise do work in Circles and ensure that abusive templars are removed rapidly, were not allowed to be practiced. Such as appearance before Court, having a say in the Right of Annulment etc.

Circles are not without tools. Kirkwall was just unfortunate. There are cults that do go to desolate places and make a living for themselves and end up being killed, or forced to suicide themselves by their leader. Does this however mean, that we should not allow people to practice their religion as they see fit, move to any place they see fit and live in a way, that they chose? 

The Chantry could stand this long because it gave a viable and executable answer to problems surrounding magic. If the Chantry fails, then a new method must be found. But are there really any alternatives? (See other post about alternatives for Circle). Integrating mages into general population just won't work. It is an attempt doomed to failure. And what then?

What will a mage do if a vilalge of 100 people lines up with knives and brooms and whatever with the attempt to kiling this mage? Will she kill all those villages just because they feared her? Or will she allow to be killed instead? Why do you think people burned women as witches? Fear is a terribly strong motivator. And people fear what they do not understand and what is powerful. Magic is both.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That was a popular uprising though. It wasn't one man deciding the fate of a minority that probably barely makes up 1% of the population, and then expects this 1% to fight against the other 99%.

Varric says that even the Templars have abandoned the Chantry. And you know once Meredith's actions are revealed, more people will side with the Mages over the Chantry. Also, I'd say mages make up.... 15-20% of the people in Thedas. Tevinter is practically filled to the brim with mages.

DA3 is probably going to be the next Exalted March

Varric said the Templars abandonned the Chantry to fight the mages.

And I think you overestimate how many people are going to sympathise with mages after a Chantry was blown up by one of them.

And 20% of the population? Sound way too high for me. Mages are a tiny minority. Even in Tevinter.


@ Oldman
Yes that's it. Thanks!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 10:03 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That was a popular uprising though. It wasn't one man deciding the fate of a minority that probably barely makes up 1% of the population, and then expects this 1% to fight against the other 99%.

Varric says that even the Templars have abandoned the Chantry. And you know once Meredith's actions are revealed, more people will side with the Mages over the Chantry. Also, I'd say mages make up.... 15-20% of the people in Thedas. Tevinter is practically filled to the brim with mages.

DA3 is probably going to be the next Exalted March

15-20%? Then Ferelden would need a much larger circle. Much much larger.

Thedas is a huge continent. Plus who knows how many apostates there actually are.

But if we assume there to be about a 1:1 ratio between templars and mages (I'd wager there are more templars in the Chantry controlled lands) that would mean that about half of the populace would be directly employed by the chantry, and that is not counting priests. Look at Dalish clans for an analog, there are 2 mages per clan, and I think they're more than 10 people.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
But if we assume there to be about a 1:1 ratio between templars and mages (I'd wager there are more templars in the Chantry controlled lands) that would mean that about half of the populace would be directly employed by the chantry, and that is not counting priests. Look at Dalish clans for an analog, there are 2 mages per clan, and I think they're more than 10 people.

Evidently, the Chantry is an evil mega corporation.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 10:06 .

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I think you overestimate how many people are going to sympathise with mages after a Chantry was blown up by one of them.

I always see the Dalish Elves hearing the plight of mages and maybe joining the fight. They sure have no love of the Chantry and the same Templars that oppressed the mages oppressed them too.

As for the general populace of Thedas, I think it greatly depends on the country. I can't see Orlais sympathizing with the mages, but the Tevinter Imperium will certainly support them.

[Lianaar]

Let me think on another example.
The neighbour has a tiger in his garden. He claims it is peaceful and really there was little to no sign that the tiger would harm anyone. Even though many tigers in the world kill people, this one is different. It loves to play with kids, never even shows its claws.

What to do now? As a neighbour?
- Do you go and say: oh right, not all tigers are the same, and this one proved he is harmless. Let's let him run free in the garden.
- Do you go and say: I saw many tigers act against people. This animal, while showed no sign of agression, still has the power and ability to rip my family and home in half, so I want it controlled.
- And if the neighbour cages the tiger, and mishandles the tiger, what will you do? Blowing up the school the neighrbours kid goes to in order to pull attention to the repressed state of captive animals?

For us, it is difficult to really process the question of magic, since we know that the guy next door won't just errupt in a giant fireball any minute. But in Thedas we can not ignore the chance for that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I think you overestimate how many people are going to sympathise with mages after a Chantry was blown up by one of them.

I always see the Dalish Elves hearing the plight of mages and maybe joining the fight. They sure have no love of the Chantry and the same Templars that oppressed the mages oppressed them too.

As for the general populace of Thedas, I think it greatly depends on the country. I can't see Orlais sympathizing with the mages, but the Tevinter Imperium will certainly support them.

Eh, I don't see the Dalish caring for the plight of humans, unless they have guarantees that they will get something in return. Are the mages led by someone strong enough like Andraste to make such promises?

And Tevinter is way too busy fighting a tiny tiny portion of the Qunari. According to Fenris, the Qunari can just walk into Tevinter if they really wanted to. Outside of symbolic and maybe financial support, I don't see Tevinter playing that big of a role.

[AndreaDraco]

Lianaar wrote...

Let me think on another example.
The neighbour has a tiger in his garden. He claims it is peaceful and really there was little to no sign that the tiger would harm anyone. Even though many tigers in the world kill people, this one is different. It loves to play with kids, never even shows its claws.

What to do now? As a neighbour?
- Do you go and say: oh right, not all tigers are the same, and this one proved he is harmless. Let's let him run free in the garden.
- Do you go and say: I saw many tigers act against people. This animal, while showed no sign of agression, still has the power and ability to rip my family and home in half, so I want it controlled.
- And if the neighbour cages the tiger, and mishandles the tiger, what will you do? Blowing up the school the neighrbours kid goes to in order to pull attention to the repressed state of captive animals?
 

I know I'm supposed to disagree, but this example is actually priceless, especially the last part

[TEWR]

no Varric's words are "In fact, haven't the Templars rebelled as well?" Then directed to Cassandra, the Seeker (who isn't a Templar as far as I know). "I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages."

And I think you underestimate how many people would sympathize as well.

EDIT: and even if she is a Templar, she says "not all of us desire war". Which can mean only she wants peace out of all of the Templars, or a large number of Templars want peace/agree with the mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2011 - 10:12 .

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Eh, I don't see the Dalish caring for the plight of humans, unless they have guarantees that they will get something in return. Are the mages led by someone strong enough like Andraste to make such promises?

And Tevinter is way too busy fighting a tiny tiny portion of the Qunari. According to Fenris, the Qunari can just walk into Tevinter if they really wanted to. Outside of symbolic and maybe financial support, I don't see Tevinter playing that big of a role.

I could see the Champion of Kirkwall or the Hero of Ferelden being such a person (and this is not even considering that they probably shared the same disappearing fate) and maybe rally the elves against the oppression of the Chantry.

As for Tevinter, it's true that they're busy fighting Qunari, but think of what would do to them if mages throughout Thedas broke free from the Chantry's yoke. They could have the potential to rule this kind of world - or, at least, to be a very important piece on the chessboard - and I can see many magisters, provided they're not all colossal ****** like Danarius, choosing to support, directly or indirectly, the mages in the rest of the world.

[Foolsfolly]

The Dalish are fickle. Why get involved in this shem war?

[Benchmark]

Sooo I was haunting the mod forums and bounced over here for a bit.... Is this topic real?? How can anyone justify Ander's? Is that even possible? I never realized people were so jaded to the casual murder of innocents.

Some of the arguments presented seem misguided also. Comparing Ander's to a revolutionary, in whatever country's history, is a mistake. The intentional targeting of noncombatant civilians has always been frowned on. Every war ever fought may have incidences of civilian casualties, but the winners always try to downplay them and make sure they are seen as accidents or unavoidable results of other plans. Or they get pinned on one or two groups that were "necessary evils", but can later be used as a focus of the population's anger.

I am not going to argue the quality of writing for the game, but I also think "the end's justify the means" arguments are way off. The story writers are obviously going to force some kind of mage/templar conflict where both sides can get support. This is just complete wishful thinking. Even without Ander's, the only nation that would side with the mage's would be Trevinter. Every other nation would be forced to side with the Templars and slaughter any mage that resisted. Add in Ander's action where he showed that mage's are willing to cause mass civilian casualties, and that it only takes a single mage not getting things the way they want...

You can try to make arguments that disagree, but any nation facing this choice would side with whoever most guaranteed the survival of the nation as a whole. Templar's are really good at killing magic user's, they are just normal knights if they are faced with non magic using soldiers. Once the mage/templar conflict is over, they can't contest the army of the nations that helped them. Mage's are good at killing anyone *except* Templar's, help them kill off the Templar's and you just guaranteed they can take your country from you.

Also people tend to forget the fact that no one chooses to be a mage. They are no requirements or tests. It doesn't require you to be moral or socially acclimated. Without a system of control in place like the Circles, it is just as likely to have some random crazed blood mage pop up and destroy a few towns as it is to have some kind healer curing lepers.

Templar's are the opposite. It isn't random. They share a belief in a greater good. They join and survive hardships in order to be able to support those beliefs. It was obvious in DA2 that most of the Templars were very moral and forthright. They showed repeatedly that the average Templar struggled with their own conscience to follow orders from overly oppressive leadership.

Regardless, if you were the leader of a nation, which would you feel safer having around? A controllable group, filled with volunteers that believe in a greater good. Or a group that is made of people with completely random moral character and are uncontrollably powerful?

Reform was certainly necessary, the level of oppression in the Kirkwall story was way too high. Oh and Meredith was listening to her sword talk to her... Definitely a problem there. I guess a story about reform by empathetic Templars and responsible and honest Mages wasn't dramatic enough for the writers. So we get Ander's instead. Goodbye Grand Cleric, you were a family friend and an honest and charitable woman. You will be missed.

Oh and why did Hawke us a pairing knife to kill the little weasle when he has two awesome daggers, a six foot two handed sword, or can immolate him with his mind?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

no Varric's words are "In fact, haven't the Templars rebelled as well?" Then directed to Cassandra, the Seeker (who isn't a Templar as far as I know). "I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages."

Seekers are "Templar internal affairs" as the devs called them. I think it's obvious, Varric said that the Templars just rebelled against the Chantry to go hunt for mages without any concern for the law.

Why would the Seekers abandon the Chantry? Do we even know that Varric knows that Cassandra isn't a Templar?

And I don't think I am underestimating. Most people are devout Andrastrians. Most would never forgive the destruction of an important Chantry and the assassination of a Grand Cleric.

EDIT:
and even if she is a Templar, she says "not all of us desire war".
Which can mean only she wants peace out of all of the Templars, or a
large number of Templars want peace/agree with the mages.

That doesn't mean they would fight with mages.

EDIT: actually someone should confirm, because now I am not sure what Varric is saying.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 10:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...
As for Tevinter, it's true that they're busy fighting Qunari, but think of what would do to them if mages throughout Thedas broke free from the Chantry's yoke. They could have the potential to rule this kind of world - or, at least, to be a very important piece on the chessboard - and I can see many magisters, provided they're not all colossal ****** like Danarius, choosing to support, directly or indirectly, the mages in the rest of the world.

I only see them committing if  it became clear that the mages are in fact winning. I don't think they are going to risk an Exalted march for mages. 

And the Tevinter system is not that different. Replace the Chantry with Magisters, and there you have it. Average mages live in pretty much similar conditions.

[TEWR]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

Let me think on another example.
The neighbour has a tiger in his garden. He claims it is peaceful and really there was little to no sign that the tiger would harm anyone. Even though many tigers in the world kill people, this one is different. It loves to play with kids, never even shows its claws.

What to do now? As a neighbour?
- Do you go and say: oh right, not all tigers are the same, and this one proved he is harmless. Let's let him run free in the garden.
- Do you go and say: I saw many tigers act against people. This animal, while showed no sign of agression, still has the power and ability to rip my family and home in half, so I want it controlled.
- And if the neighbour cages the tiger, and mishandles the tiger, what will you do? Blowing up the school the neighrbours kid goes to in order to pull attention to the repressed state of captive animals?
 

I know I'm supposed to disagree, but this example is actually priceless, especially the last part

I lol'd.

Then I lol'd even harder when thinking of Fenris' line in the quest to get Merrill:

Sure, play with the tiger. It's not his fault he bites you!"

or something to that effect in Long Way Home

[AndreaDraco]

Uhm... I have to replay the last dialogue between Varric and Cassandra, or is there a video on youtube?

Anyway, knight, you're right: the vast majority of people are Andastrians, but we must not forget that, even before the whole Chantry business, there were many people keen on helping the mages, for whatever reason. They are still the minority, I know, but I don't think mages will be entirely alone in this battle.

[AndreaDraco]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And the Tevinter system is not that different. Replace the Chantry with Magisters, and there you have it. Average mages live in pretty much similar conditions.

Well, from what Fenris said upon taking him to the Gallows, it seemed to me that, at least, they were free to exit the Circle Tower, to have relationship outside of it... to keep a cat

[KnightofPhoenix]

AndreaDraco wrote...
Anyway, knight, you're right: the vast majority of people are Andastrians, but we must not forget that, even before the whole Chantry business, there were many people keen on helping the mages, for whatever reason. They are still the minority, I know, but I don't think mages will be entirely alone in this battle.

That was before Anders blew up a Chantry.
I think many of them will change their minds.

Those are the people he should have mobalized, but he didn't.

[Kyriani Agrivar]

Benchmark wrote...

Sooo I was haunting the mod forums and bounced over here for a bit.... Is this topic real?? How can anyone justify Ander's? Is that even possible? I never realized people were so jaded to the casual murder of innocents.

Some of the arguments presented seem misguided also. Comparing Ander's to a revolutionary, in whatever country's history, is a mistake. The intentional targeting of noncombatant civilians has always been frowned on. Every war ever fought may have incidences of civilian casualties, but the winners always try to downplay them and make sure they are seen as accidents or unavoidable results of other plans. Or they get pinned on one or two groups that were "necessary evils", but can later be used as a focus of the population's anger.

I am not going to argue the quality of writing for the game, but I also think "the end's justify the means" arguments are way off. The story writers are obviously going to force some kind of mage/templar conflict where both sides can get support. This is just complete wishful thinking. Even without Ander's, the only nation that would side with the mage's would be Trevinter. Every other nation would be forced to side with the Templars and slaughter any mage that resisted. Add in Ander's action where he showed that mage's are willing to cause mass civilian casualties, and that it only takes a single mage not getting things the way they want...

You can try to make arguments that disagree, but any nation facing this choice would side with whoever most guaranteed the survival of the nation as a whole. Templar's are really good at killing magic user's, they are just normal knights if they are faced with non magic using soldiers. Once the mage/templar conflict is over, they can't contest the army of the nations that helped them. Mage's are good at killing anyone *except* Templar's, help them kill off the Templar's and you just guaranteed they can take your country from you.

Also people tend to forget the fact that no one chooses to be a mage. They are no requirements or tests. It doesn't require you to be moral or socially acclimated. Without a system of control in place like the Circles, it is just as likely to have some random crazed blood mage pop up and destroy a few towns as it is to have some kind healer curing lepers.

Templar's are the opposite. It isn't random. They share a belief in a greater good. They join and survive hardships in order to be able to support those beliefs. It was obvious in DA2 that most of the Templars were very moral and forthright. They showed repeatedly that the average Templar struggled with their own conscience to follow orders from overly oppressive leadership.

Regardless, if you were the leader of a nation, which would you feel safer having around? A controllable group, filled with volunteers that believe in a greater good. Or a group that is made of people with completely random moral character and are uncontrollably powerful?

Reform was certainly necessary, the level of oppression in the Kirkwall story was way too high. Oh and Meredith was listening to her sword talk to her... Definitely a problem there. I guess a story about reform by empathetic Templars and responsible and honest Mages wasn't dramatic enough for the writers. So we get Ander's instead. Goodbye Grand Cleric, you were a family friend and an honest and charitable woman. You will be missed.

Oh and why did Hawke us a pairing knife to kill the little weasle when he has two awesome daggers, a six foot two handed sword, or can immolate him with his mind?

This isn't about being jaded. It isn't about cynism. At the core... this is an issue of Civil Rights. Until you yourself know what it's like to be oppressed... to be backed into a corner and see no way out but the most extreme of actions... you will never understand why Anders did what he did.

I'm not saying what he did was right. let me repeat that: I AM NOT SAYING WHAT ANDERS DID WAS RIGHT. Are we clear on that point? Good.

But Anders saw no other way to FORCE change to happen. Leaving it in the hands of the grand cleric who simply refused to take sides would result in the status quo remaining the same. Anders felt the only option was to remove that "neutral" party and incite a civil war to force SOMETHING to happen instead of the veritable nothing we saw happening all through his life.

Until you know what it's like to be a minority... until you know what it's like to have your life made a living hell because of something about yourself that you have no control over... until you know what its like to have the majority pressing down on you from all sides trying to force you to do what they say... you'll never understand why Anders did what he did. It may not have been the right thing... but it was not without reason.

Modifié par Kyriani Agrivar, 28 mars 2011 - 10:23 .

[Lianaar]

I think general people just wish to live. If there is a templar base next to the village? Then likely they'll support the templars. If there is a Circle that revolted next to the village? Then templars might have a difficulty in hiding in the village. Only a few people are willing to take risks and sacrifices for ideologies. I believe way more people are willing to help anyone who they think needs help, be that mage or templar. Someone half dead scurrying for his life will evoke sympathy in simple people and they'll seek to aid him (just like people aided Sten in DA: O)
Propaganda, who you get food from, who secures your safety, who is distant, or gets close to you, who hears out your plees... those are the things that are more important then the belief that slavery is wrong or right (just think on city elves, who cares for their servitude?)

Modifié par Lianaar, 28 mars 2011 - 10:23 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

no Varric's words are "In fact, haven't the Templars rebelled as well?" Then directed to Cassandra, the Seeker (who isn't a Templar as far as I know). "I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages."

Seekers are "Templar internal affairs" as the devs called them. I think it's obvious, Varric said that the Templars just rebelled against the Chantry to go hunt for mages without any concern for the law.

Why would the Seekers abandon the Chantry? Do we even know that Varric knows that Cassandra isn't a Templar?

And I don't think I am underestimating. Most people are devout Andrastrians. Most would never forgive the destruction of an important Chantry and the assassination of a Grand Cleric.

EDIT:
and even if she is a Templar, she says "not all of us desire war".
Which can mean only she wants peace out of all of the Templars, or a
large number of Templars want peace/agree with the mages.

That doesn't mean they would fight with mages.

EDIT: actually someone should confirm, because now I am not sure what Varric is saying.

 there's the ending in a pro-mage playthrough



Meredith was a devout Andrastian, and look where that got her. Especially considering her backstory on her paranoia regarding mages.

Not all devout Andrastian's will be blind to reason. People think very differently, as this thread shows. Some people on here justify Anders' actions, while others condemn them. Just as much, some devout andrastians will agree with Anders, and some will condemn him. All I said was that more people would sympathize, but I never said it would be a staggering number of people.


And as for your templar comment, it also doesn't mean they would fight against the mages. Neutral, pro, or anti, All that matters is how they view it. 

But hey, the rats in Lowtown are pro-mage, some are pro-templar, others support more cheese for both sides

[Malanek]

For all the people who say Anders cannot be justified, have you seen V for Vendetta? Do you believe that V cannot be unjustified? The similarities are there and quite strong.

[AndreaDraco]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Not all devout Andrastian's will be blind to reason. People think very differently, as this thread shows. Some people on here justify Anders' actions, while others condemn them. Just as much, some devout andrastians will agree with Anders, and some will condemn him. All I said was that more people would sympathize, but I never said it would be a staggering number of people.

Agreed. I think that, even after the destruction of the Chantry and the death of Elthine, some people will support their fight. Maybe for the wrong reasons, or for the right ones.

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 28 mars 2011 - 10:30 .

[Lianaar]

What you can justify or not depends on the values you have. So with different values you can justify different things. The thread is aimed to listing what values would allow such justification and which values are not strong enough to justify such action. Generally matters of naturally born freedom, right of choice, individuum against mass, neutrality, peace vs war, how to prevent danger come up in the conversation. So it can be justified and it can not be justified.

[TEWR]

Malanek999 wrote...

For all the people who say Anders cannot be justified, have you seen V for Vendetta? Do you believe that V cannot be unjustified? The similarities are there and quite strong.

HEY! I was just watching that all week because I wanted to see if Anders' actions were anywhere similar to it. and they are, sort of. Different scenarios and reasons, but more or less the same in that they are both justified in what they did.

If you harbor an apostate, you're sent to the Aeonar.

You go against Sutler, you're sent to the Creepy Creedy.