350 réponses à ce sujet

[Lianaar]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm convinced Ser Gaider meant it as a cautionary tale if he meant anything by it at all.
I don't admire Anders.  I pity him.

I do not admire him either, nor my chars, I do pity him and some of my chars do that too. But I do not think it was mean tto be a cautionary tale (though only the writer can know for sure). I think it was meant to be a tale, which demands that you think about the options and reasons, that allows you to blindly take sides or chew your fingernails asking yourself: what now? It is meant to evoke feelings, possibly to shock (though there were many signs leading to this). A well built up paranoia and unease was looming over Anders, you could chose to ignore, worry about, support...
It allowed players to position their own character's personality based on their reaction to Anders' action.

[DarkSpiral]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...
2. whether you see the Chantry explosion as *more* morally reprehensible than the slow but consistent genocide and abuse of mages over almost 1,000 years
    

I don't think anything is more morally reprehensible

my problem is that the Vengeance taken upon the Chantry wasn't the solution.  Anders never had one two choices: 1) suffer in silence 2) blow some people up.  It wasn't a good moral solution.  It wasn't even a good strategic solution.  I'm still convinced that non-abomination Anders could have seen that clearly.

Non-abomination Ander was a selfish child in a man's body that whined at anything that remotely resembled authority.

I mean, sure the guy was witty and funny.  But that Anders would not have been part of the Mage underground in the first place.  He would never have stayed in Kirkwall to begin with, because placing his freedom in that kind of risk wouldn't have been acceptable to him.  Bonding with Justice warped the spirit's perspective, but it alterted Anders just was much.  So, yeah, Anders as he was in Awakenings wouldn't have done what he evetually did.

As an aside...what do you think WOULD have been a good, moral, solution?

[Ymladdych]

brushyourteeth wrote...
I don't think anything is more morally reprehensible

my problem is that the Vengeance taken upon the Chantry wasn't the solution.  Anders never had one two choices: 1) suffer in silence 2) blow some people up.  It wasn't a good moral solution.  It wasn't even a good strategic solution.  I'm still convinced that non-abomination Anders could have seen that clearly.

Non-abomination Anders probably wouldn't have blown up the Chantry.  This is true.  However, Awakening Anders did already have a substantial amount of hostility about the mage situation.  My Warden was a mage, but I played her as a true adopted daughter of Irving...the templars weren't a perfect solution, but they were better than nothing (necessary, in other words), and I had her debate this with Anders a few times.  In front of the Andraste statue, his voice dripped with a contained resentment (-5 friendliness), but come time for the "destroy my phylactery" quest he practically lit her hair on fire with his aggression when she tried to refuse.

So I'm guessing that Anders' hostility was what caused him to merge with Justice in the first place; he did it so that his "sense of Justice" could override the "weakness" of his compassion.  And he got what he thought he wanted, but it wasn't really what he bargained for, because the "weak" part of him was still in there, and suffering.

As for whether it was a "good" strategic solution, I would say that you're wrong.  By the end of the game, the Circles are rebelling; his plan worked *exactly* as he expected it to.  Whether the mages win or lose wasn't what mattered to him; he just wanted them to FIGHT.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 26 mars 2011 - 03:29 .

[Ymladdych]

*** Edit:  Double post.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 26 mars 2011 - 03:27 .

[Thrennion]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

He doesn't need to be justified. His actions were necessary. Horrible. But necessary.

My feelings exactly.

[brushyourteeth]

DarkSpiral wrote...
As an aside...what do you think WOULD have been a good, moral, solution?

Wow, there's a question I didn't expect to be asked today.  As you probably already guessed, I haven't thought that out completely (though in my heart I do side with the mages).  Obviously, I think that blowing up the Chantry is the WRONG way to go. Aside from that, I think Anders was on the right path.  He made an excellent name for mages through his healing work in Darktown, he was an apostate living free with a good reputation thanks to his connection with Hawke, all the while smuggling apostates to freedom(not maleficar when he could help it, because for all his faults he still hated blood magic).  While with Hawke he was able to express his opinions about the unfair treatment of mages openly to important people like Grand Cleric Elthina and Knight Captain Cullen.  If he had been able to restrain himself, he probably would have been the most important figure in the revolution that was bound to happen anyway -- next to Hawke.

It is true that Awakenings Anders never thought it was a good idea for all mages to have autonomy from the Circle.  He just wanted the freedom to chase girls and use his gifts! 

ymladych - the sad part is he was actually too late to start the rebellion -- Meredith had already called for the Rite and the Circle was already rebelling before the explosion! 

[Lianaar]

What would I do if I am pro mage with my character and I have a free option? Depending on the personality of said character:

Make Anders head of the runaway mage railroad, but also task him to check if said mages are not abomination, and also ensuring that they don't just end up alone, desperate, victim to demons.

Send people to the Divine or her offices to issue complaints about Meredith, using the Tranquil solution as a good example, and listing the abuses.

Use Varrik's connection to find the Revolutionarists and kick them out of town (Kirkwall didn't need extra hatred and violence, thank you).

Use Varrik's and Anders' connections to pinpoint troublesome Templars and Mages and silently disposing of them.

The Chantry always stepped up when there was no room to avoid (like in case of Petrice). Prove that problem characters act against the state and interest of individual people (lie, forge if necessary).

If one wants to win the trust of others for mages, the best thing one can do is to prove that simply because you are mage, you are not evil, or won't act evil. You can prove it by showing. Anders holding up a free clinic made people defend him from the Templars. Convince other mages to do the same: help people free, care for them, and in return, they'll care for you. Blowing their Chantry and houses off won't just do it.

Take up Thrask' job and continue from that point. Somewhat force Cullan on the decision at times, like educating the mages on turning to Cullan with issues instead of Meredith, since Cullan did show on many occasions, that he is willing to step up against Meredith, if needs be.

Win the war by inches....it is a way more secure and effective way of ensuring progress, though definitely less turbulent and slower too. However when you get to the build up your new system part, you'll not be tainted by emotions. Whoever wins the WAR will make a system that is aimed at ensuring this never happens again. So even the good ideas of the other party will likely be ignored.

I bet I leave out a lots of other options.

[Ramus Quaritch]

I think Anders is a terrorist.  I also know that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so I'm going to focus on a different reason why I think Anders is not justified in blowing up the Chantry.  

The thing is, Anders put the mages in a horrible position.  They were imprisoned in the Circle, guarded by an army of Templars.  Anders blowing up the Chantry gave Meredith and the "hawk" (pro war) templars the justification to call for the Rite of Annulment.  All of this is happening while the mages are imprisoned in the circle surrounded by guards.  He was basically sentencing those mages to death (unless Hawke, of course sides with them).  Anders' actions were not justified because they were reckless and put the mages in a horrible position.  He did not think about some very obvious consequences of his blowing up the Chantry (that the mages, trapped in a prison, would be executed).  How many of the mages are battle-hardened warriors?  Some, but not all.  There must be many mages there who are frightened children or people who are non-violent.  To them, all of a sudden the Templars are trying to execute them and they have to fight for their lives.  All because of Anders.  That is wrong.   

What Anders should have done, and would have been justified in doing, is break the mages out of the Circle.  It should not be a problem for him, as he escaped Ferelden's circle 15 times.  Either do several small break-outs or pull off a "Great Escape" (which would be awesome to have in the game).  That would allow the mages to escape Kirkwall and form a resistance.  After breaking out, helping, and/or meeting up with more mages their resistance would grow until it becomes an army.  Then they could attack circles, free more mages, and have a revolution. 

Modifié par Ramus Quaritch, 26 mars 2011 - 04:00 .

[Kotetsimaru]

Hmm myself I can technically see the blowing up the Chantry as the Justice/Vengeance option.  I mean they just sat there letting the templars get away with the atrocities they were committing praying that their god would make it all better.  You can't just ignore something and hope it goes away, in anders/justice eyes it probably looked like they were actually one of the main causes for the injustices against the mages because they'd let them happen and didn't do a thing about them causing things to escalate to where they were. 
By blowing up the Chantry it showed the world that this could no longer be allowed to happen, it will have got the attention of everyone to look and see what happens when you abuse people and think it's ok to let it happen.

[MICHELLE7]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ingu wrote...

Mm, though that's where many people would argue otherwise - you never 'need' to kill innocents! D=

I disagree. And Elthina was hardly an innocent.

I like to compare her and the mage situation to an abusive family.

The father (Meredith) abuses his children (the mages) every night and day. The mother (Elthina) knows exactly what is going on and chooses to stay out of it, doesn't try to do anything about it, and hides in at church and prays it'll all be okay.

Elthina and the Chantry are just as abusive to the mages as Meredith and the Templars. The Templars simply actively abuse the mages while the Chantry neglects them and lets the abuse continue.

You hit a home run with that comment...great post.

[Ariella]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

You can't justify murder, Anders destroyed the thing that was holding the peace together and now everyone will suffer because of it. Innocents will die and continue to die now.

There's an old addage from the Talmud: "If someone is trying to kill you, rise early and kill them first

Anders was victimized by the chantry/circle since he was a child. He escaped seven times, and that last time got him shoved in solitary for a YEAR. A year of no contact with people just because he wanted to be free. And that last time, the Templars were ready to hang him even though he hadn't been the one who killed his templar escort. Then they try and trap him after he was recruited into the Wardens to kill him, claiming their authority is greater than the King's in this matter, even though it's been established that Right of Conscription superceeds even CHANTRY authority (Alistar as case in point). So I'd say Anders is as much victim as villlian and that he found himself increasingly painted into a corner by Justice, the templars, the chantry's innaction and his own anger.

And Anders hated what he was about to do, you can see it through all of act 3. And innocents were already suffereing because of the Chantry and the Circle. Children with magic are ripped away from their families, templars are addicted to Lyrium to enhance their powers. Specifically in Kirkwall, Meredith was squeezing the commons and nobles because of her fear of demons under every bed. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the blood mages we saw were pushed to Blood Magic because of Meredith insanity, plus being it's the only kind of magic templars fear, which has psychological uses.

Plus we don't know how much of Justice was affecting the issues. There's a lot of blame to go around, and not all of it should fall on Anders' shoulders.

[Shockwave Pulsar]

No matter what you had to go through, nothing justifies becoming a terrorist, murdering innocents and starting a war during which many others will die.

[PlumPaul93]

Balthamoss wrote...

No matter what you had to go through, nothing justifies becoming a terrorist, murdering innocents and starting a war during which many others will die.

This

[KnightofPhoenix]

Good thread op. Anders can be justifiable.

Not for me, for simple yet crucial reasons:
- On what basis does he think he is qualified to make that choice for all mages, being an abomination with no leadership abilities (he admits it)?

- What are his plans to bring about a new society? Other than blowing stuff up? How does he plan to gain the trust and support of 99% of people who are non-mages? Or are the mages destined to fight and wipe them all out? Are mage children all over Thedas destined to be murdered because he didn't bother to think?

- How does he plan to defend Kirkwall from the inevitable Exalted Marches had the mages won?

- How does he plan to prevent or alleviate the mages from succumbing to possession in the frenzy of revolution? We know that possession becomes a lot easier when mages are under heavy stress and true enough, even when siding with mages we end up fighting demons and abominations.

The general gist: did he think at all?

I am not concerned about ethics, morality and whatever. I prefer to focus on more objective factors, here vis a vis long term planning. If Anders had the qualifications necessary to lead a revolution, already had a big following, had some sort of a plan, both immediate and long term, in mind, then I wouldn't mind that much. I'd still mind because I believe that an alternative was obvious, everyone hated Meredith. What we have in the game however is Anders acting like a complete and utter fool. That is why he is not justified in my eyes.

Do I think he is "evil"? No. Do I understand him? Yes. Do I even sympathise a little? Yes. Is Anders still my 2nd favorite DA2 companion? Yes. But he's a reckless fool.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mars 2011 - 04:21 .

[MICHELLE7]

While I think that what Anders did was necessary I do think he had kinda lost it by the time he did it. He's unstable for sure...the codex points that out pretty clearly. I don't think that without Justice he would have ever taken out the chantry...it just wasn't in him as an individual.

I forget which character has the conversation with Anders but one of them talks about him getting justice for the mages and makes a remark that wouldn't those wronged by getting justice for the mages also be in need of justice. His answer was yes. The character commented " then where does it end"

It kinda made me wonder if the plan wasn't instigated by Justice to claim Anders body completely for himself. Justice doesn't like waiting...Anders has held him back a long time...He disapproves of your romance with Anders if you choose him for an LI...you're a distraction. Anders is in Justice's way. It would be justice if the person who blew up the chantry was executed for his crime. If Anders died perhaps his soul would leave allowing Justice to remain in Ander's body to continue his campaign unhindered.

[Abispa]

I like how there is no easy solution, and I see Anders and Fenris as wonderful, albeit extreme, counterpoints to each other (I wind up killing them both in my first play-through),

Anders has definitely forced the "inevitable" war between the two sides, and I can see how he'd prefer that to the slow killing machine the Chantry had set up. But his chaos is no guarantee for a brighter future.

Fenris' story showed that allowing mages free reign easily leads to slavery and mass murder on a scale unimaginable. Don't forget that the Tevinter Imperium destroyed an entire Elven civilization with a single spell. And definitely don't forget all the slaver you have to kill in the "free" city of Kirkwall. I know I can't. There's a blister on my thumb.

Merril's clan also showed a problem with mages wielding too much power. Even though Merril and the clan members agree that staying in place for almost a decade has put the clan in danger (and resulted in the deaths of a dozen or so valuable hunters), the Keeper had them stay in place without giving anyone a clear explanation as to why. She may have been benign and loving, but her authority as a mage, her insistence on maintaining the standard mage "oath of mystery," and her clan's conditioned subservience to her authority lead hardly paints a rosy picture. And, in danger of sounding too much like Fenris, being born a mage automatically makes you an authority figure!

And the Chantry isn't the cause for anti-mage sentiment. Whether or not you like organized religion, the Chantry was founded as a response to mage abuses. The Chasind are pagans and they have a healthy fear of magic as well. And don't get me started on the Quanari's Soviet-style society.

[Shockwave Pulsar]

MICHELLE7 wrote...

I forget which character has the conversation with Anders but one of them talks about him getting justice for the mages and makes a remark that wouldn't those wronged by getting justice for the mages also be in need of justice. His answer was yes. The character commented " then where does it end"

It's this :

Anders: There is justice in the world.

Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.

Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?

Anders: Yes.

Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?

Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.

Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

Modifié par Balthamoss, 26 mars 2011 - 04:39 .

[brushyourteeth]

Yuck.

Let's stop pretending that just because there are already people suffering that it's ok to cause more suffering.

people's houses catch fire all the time, right? I guess I'm justified in committing arson!

"innocents were already dying" doesn't excuse Anders' actions at all. AT ALL.

[Kotetsimaru]

The other point is by the end i feel Anders is Merediths polar opposite, where she sees blood mages behind every corner Anders sees injustice against mages. Could have just let those 2 have it out really lol

[TobiTobsen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Good thread op. Anders can be justifiable.

Not for me, for simple yet crucial reasons:
- On what basis does he think he is qualified to make that choice for all mages, being an abomination with no leadership abilities (he admits it)?

- What are his plans to bring about a new society? Other than blowing stuff up? How does he plan to gain the trust and support of 99% of people who are non-mages? Or are the mages destined to fight and wipe them all out? Are mage children all over Thedas destined to be murdered because he didn't bother to think?

- How does he plan to defend Kirkwall from the inevitable Exalted Marches had the mages won?

- How does he plan to prevent or alleviate the mages from succumbing to possession in the frenzy of revolution? We know that possession becomes a lot easier when mages are under heavy stress and true enough, even when siding with mages we end up fighting demons and abominations.

The general gist: did he think at all?

I am not concerned about ethics, morality and whatever. I prefer to focus on more objective factors, here vis a vis long term planning. If Anders had the qualifications necessary to lead a revolution, already had a big following, had some sort of a plan, both immediate and long term, in mind, then I wouldn't mind that much. I'd still mind because I believe that an alternative was obvious, everyone hated Meredith. What we have in the game however is Anders acting like a complete and utter fool. That is why he is not justified in my eyes.

Do I think he is "evil"? No. Do I understand him? Yes. Do I even sympathise a little? Yes. Is Anders still my 2nd favorite DA2 companion? Yes. But he's a reckless fool.

/sign

Thanks KoP. Exactly my thoughts. Especially the first point.
Nice one Anders. Because of your libertarian views the four other fraterneties have to fight too, no matter if they want it or not, or they will be slaughtered for an idea that they don't even support.
Loyalist? You want to belong to the circle/chantry? Fight or die.
Aequitarian? You're not sure if revolution is the right thing? Fight or die.
Lucrosian? You just want to make some coin? Fight or die.
Isolationist? You just want to be left alone? Fight or die.

And his freaking long term plan? Get killed by Hawke and be a hero/martyr. YAY Anders! Be a coward and don't face the consequences of the **** you triggerd.

[TcheQ]

Anders is an **** who turned to blood magic for I don't care what reason. And i think he had sex with himself, and is schizophrenic. but enough about that nightmare. Why don't I have the option to kill this ****** I don't know

[Abispa]

@ TcheQ -- Um, you DID have the option to "kill this ******."

[TcheQ]

Abispa wrote...

@ TcheQ -- Um, you DID have the option to "kill this ******."

When I wanted him to bleed from his eyes the moment i met him and his self reighteous douchebaggery, and he turns out to be nothing but a simple terrorist.  When in Da2 > WHEN >

[TcheQ]

TcheQ wrote...

Anders is an **** who turned to blood magic for I don't care what reason. And i think he had sex with himself, and is schizophrenic. but enough about that nightmare. Why don't I have the option to kill this ****** I don't know

That should read ASSHO|LE
.
F... Y... censorship

[Maria Caliban]

brushyourteeth wrote...

That Anders was possessed by his passion for a just cause and a misguided sense of  how to right the wrongs done to others -- and that that obsession turned him into the monster he always hated -- that's Anders' story.  I'm convinced Ser Gaider meant it as a cautionary tale if he meant anything by it at all.

Jennifer. BioWare employs more than a single writer.