350 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

Sure. I meant no offence to the other writers -- I'm just going on the assumption that a major character change like Anders' wouldn't fly without his support and direction.

[Statulos]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Good thread op. Anders can be justifiable.

Not for me, for simple yet crucial reasons:
- On what basis does he think he is qualified to make that choice for all mages, being an abomination with no leadership abilities (he admits it)?

- What are his plans to bring about a new society? Other than blowing stuff up? How does he plan to gain the trust and support of 99% of people who are non-mages? Or are the mages destined to fight and wipe them all out? Are mage children all over Thedas destined to be murdered because he didn't bother to think?

- How does he plan to defend Kirkwall from the inevitable Exalted Marches had the mages won?

- How does he plan to prevent or alleviate the mages from succumbing to possession in the frenzy of revolution? We know that possession becomes a lot easier when mages are under heavy stress and true enough, even when siding with mages we end up fighting demons and abominations.

The general gist: did he think at all?

I am not concerned about ethics, morality and whatever. I prefer to focus on more objective factors, here vis a vis long term planning. If Anders had the qualifications necessary to lead a revolution, already had a big following, had some sort of a plan, both immediate and long term, in mind, then I wouldn't mind that much. I'd still mind because I believe that an alternative was obvious, everyone hated Meredith. What we have in the game however is Anders acting like a complete and utter fool. That is why he is not justified in my eyes.

Do I think he is "evil"? No. Do I understand him? Yes. Do I even sympathise a little? Yes. Is Anders still my 2nd favorite DA2 companion? Yes. But he's a reckless fool.

I´m starting to get worried; I agree with you too often.

Anders feels like a more visceral, less learned boschevik: he effectively adresses unfair and unjust situations but he is uncapable to understand that that his views are not the only possible ones and that his personal needs and obsessions are not universal nor "one size fits all". He´s also uncapable of controling himself, thus turning into a greated danger for the cause he represents than those who opose mages.

Even worse, just as you point out he lacks the "then what" once power is taken down. That is the very diference between a revolt and a revolution: the revolution has a plan for the "then what".

And this leads me to think that a person like this in a situation like the one present presents a very nice background for storytelling.

Modifié par Statulos, 26 mars 2011 - 05:51 .

[Lianaar]

TcheQ wrote...

Abispa wrote...

@ TcheQ -- Um, you DID have the option to "kill this ******."

When I wanted him to bleed from his eyes the moment i met him and his self reighteous douchebaggery, and he turns out to be nothing but a simple terrorist.  When in Da2 > WHEN >

After his act, it was either kill him, or send him away, or tell him to stay.

[Abispa]

I wish I had the option to buy Anders a razor. I can't justify that weak stubble.

[Camenae]

I wish I had the option to give Anders some money. How can my Hawke sit in her big fancy mansion all day with her fancy manservants and never contribute a SINGLE CENT to her boyfriend's clinic! If anything Anders did should be encouraged, it's that. I never loved Anders more than I did during the scene when you first meet him, and he's stumbling back with exhaustion having just healed a peasant boy for free.

[Thokundin]

Just saying...im finding this entire debate/discussion fascinating and its really helping my understanding of the story and anders himself. Thanks guys =)

[Ariella]

TcheQ wrote...

Anders is an **** who turned to blood magic for I don't care what reason. And i think he had sex with himself, and is schizophrenic. but enough about that nightmare. Why don't I have the option to kill this ****** I don't know

Beyond the who sexual thing, Anders hates blood magic, and never turns to it in the entire game. Ironically, enough the explosion was purely chemistry not magic at all.

[brushyourteeth]

man oh man... all the "justifying or not justifying" aside -- that boy did know how to pull on some heart strings.

... and then break them.

[KawaiiKatie]

brushyourteeth wrote...

man oh man... all the "justifying or not justifying" aside -- that boy did know how to pull on some heart strings.

... and then break them.

Jennifer Hepler did an amazing job with him, no question. I loved every single moment.

[Jarcander]

The Grand Cleric in DA2 does what she must. She is not attempting to win a popularity contest. She simply does what she must to save as many people as possible and to preserve peace. In a way she reminds me of a leader of any truly democratic country.

And people do love to hate their leaders so even if they almost always do what they must for the best of their people.

Anders was wrong, Templars were wrong, Mages were wrong, The Chantry (if represented by grand cleric from DA2) was right. This is a never ending argument reflecting real world in interesting ways.

[MICHELLE7]

Balthamoss wrote...

MICHELLE7 wrote...

I forget which character has the conversation with Anders but one of them talks about him getting justice for the mages and makes a remark that wouldn't those wronged by getting justice for the mages also be in need of justice. His answer was yes. The character commented " then where does it end"

It's this :

Anders: There is justice in the world.

Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.

Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?

Anders: Yes.

Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?

Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.

Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

That's the one...kinda makes Justice sound like the judge and jury of everyone(including Anders)...in the end he's the only one standing because he wiped everyone else out. Thanks for giving the conversation dialogue...it was starting the bug me that I couldn't remember exactly who Anders was talking to.

[Thrennion]

The Chantry was NOT in the right. Just because they sat by and did nothing while a horrible situation boiled over does not make them good or right. Inaction created that explosion as much as Vengeance.

[Jarcander]

Thrennion wrote...

The Chantry was NOT in the right. Just because they sat by and did nothing while a horrible situation boiled over does not make them good or right. Inaction created that explosion as much as Vengeance.

Hmm, lets try a trap analogy.

Think of it as disarming a trap. Push a little too much part A or part B and the whole thing explodes, but if you balance things out you might just live through it. Sure, it's tough that the trap remains there as a reminder of continious danger, but it is stable until a resolution can be found.

[0o-Constance-o0]

You know I really have to reiterate, it is Chantry law for the mages to be held in the circle, and watched by templars.

Hence, get rid of the chantry to get rid of the templars. Not vice versa. They refused to change the rules even though they knew the mages were suffering and it was perfectly in their power to help.

My God I absolutely adore this whole argument, isn't it amazing how it seems to be nearly split down the middle of who agrees and disagrees? Thank you bioware!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Let's assume that Erlina deserved to die for inaction. Pragmatically speaking, what did blowing up the Chantry do?

Before, you had nobles, commoners and even Templars who sympathized with mages. After the destruction of the Chantry, what do you think the average noble, commoner and Templar is going to think?

Destroying the Chantry was an act of idiocy, Instead of trying to rally popular opinion that was in the mage's favor, that act removed the possibility completely. Because like any man consumed by paranoia (as we read in the codex), Anders can only see enemies and can't see potential allies.

[Jarcander]

0o-Constance-o0 wrote...

My God I absolutely adore this whole argument, isn't it amazing how it seems to be nearly split down the middle of who agrees and disagrees? Thank you bioware!

It's quite grand, isn't it?

So anyway; only force in Thedas capable of mass destruction is a mage. I don't recall who said it, maybe Fenris, but power corrupts. Tevinter Imperium was a perfect example what every country in that world could be if there was nothing limiting individuals of great power. I think what makes this so delicious topic for discussion is that there is not really a real world example, because there is no magic. I suppose you could bring a nuke into discussion, but they are not controlled by single individuals, but goverments.

The Circles are a defensive mechanism against magic. Not fair by any means to mages or their families, but they seem to be one of those things that are... necessary. Speaking of the mad knight commander we get to kill instead of a partially finished human skull Reaper; wasn't she pushed over the edge by magic? The relic. It's magic. Next to nothing is known about its origins except that it's magic and was found from old thaig.

[Lianaar]

Camenae wrote...

I wish I had the option to give Anders some money. How can my Hawke sit in her big fancy mansion all day with her fancy manservants and never contribute a SINGLE CENT to her boyfriend's clinic! If anything Anders did should be encouraged, it's that. I never loved Anders more than I did during the scene when you first meet him, and he's stumbling back with exhaustion having just healed a peasant boy for free.

Indirectly you can donate to the clinic by giving money to the refuges (in the shop you first asked about Anders). Not the same, I know, but still something.

[Lianaar]

0o-Constance-o0 wrote...You know I really have to reiterate, it is Chantry law for the mages to be held in the circle, and watched by templars.

Hence, get rid of the chantry to get rid of the templars. Not vice versa. They refused to change the rules even though they knew the mages were suffering and it was perfectly in their power to help.

The Kirkwall Chantry however is not 'the Chantry". Eradicating it will change nothing in chantry law at all. It will merely make Chantry make counter measures and make it eaven strickter for mages to live. It wasn't eliminating the problem. Maybe if he blackmailed the Divine? If you don't change this law, then I'll do this or that? More on the terrorist scale, but at least has some reason behind it. Templars will still have the law to follow, the law will still be intact, and the Chantry as a whole will be stronger as ever, because now all Chantry splinters have a common enemy. And what ever brings people more together, then a common enemy? (reference to Cold War).

[LobselVith8]

Anders actions lead to the Circles breaking free from the Chantry, which is unprecedented because they have been under Chantry control for a thousand years. He removed the chance of compromise because the choice was to continue the subjugation of the mages, and he wanted to see the mages free. He came to Kirkwall because his first love Karl was telling him the horror stories about the Gallows, and he confirmed it when he became part of the Mage underground. He had to kill Karl when his first love begged for death instead of a life as a "templar puppet," and all she saw was the templars' grasp holding firm on Kirkwall. Mages have been raped and killed, and nothing changes to protect them. The status quo remained the same, where mages were thralls and the Chantry was in control. His people suffered for a thousand years, and Anders wanted to see teem finally free.

[Thrennion]

Jarcander wrote...

Thrennion wrote...

The Chantry was NOT in the right. Just because they sat by and did nothing while a horrible situation boiled over does not make them good or right. Inaction created that explosion as much as Vengeance.

Hmm, lets try a trap analogy.

Think of it as disarming a trap. Push a little too much part A or part B and the whole thing explodes, but if you balance things out you might just live through it. Sure, it's tough that the trap remains there as a reminder of continious danger, but it is stable until a resolution can be found.

Your analogy doesn't really work. It's more like a ticking bomb than a land mine. If Anders hadn't blown the Chantry, the situation would have still come to a head, unprevented by the one person in a position to do something about it.

[Jarcander]

Thrennion wrote...
 
Your analogy doesn't really work. It's more like a ticking bomb than a land mine. If Anders hadn't blown the Chantry, the situation would have still come to a head, unprevented by the one person in a position to do something about it.

Not necessary, but I guess we'll never know for sure since there is no way to stop the lunatic. There is always another way.

In DA:O you could read of Circles within Circles and there was a particularry interesting faction there called the Isolationists (or something). They would be self-governed and isolated, as far as I understood it. Not like Tevinter Imperium though as they would still be separate Circles. I like to think of them as big family houses for mages. While they wouldn't be welcome outside circles and a child would still be taken to circle, it would leave them alone to their own affairs without having templars molest them. This would hopefully encourage them to stay and there would be less mages outside circles doing less damage.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thrennion wrote...
Your analogy doesn't really work. It's more like a ticking bomb than a land mine. If Anders hadn't blown the Chantry, the situation would have still come to a head, unprevented by the one person in a position to do something about it.

Not necessarily. Commoners sympathized with mages and disliked Meredith. Many nobles dislike Meredith for they see her usurping power. The guards dislike Meredith for trying to push their beloved captain aside. Many Templars revolted against Meredith and many are skeptical, including Cullen her second. Erlina was neutral or could have provided symbolic blessings. 

All these opposition groups could have been rallied to oust Meredith from power. That would have been unprecedented as mages collaborate with the rest of society against an oppressive regime, which could have acted as a foundation for long term reform. If Anders can't do it, then he should just settle with running away like he always did.

Of course what Anders did removed the option completely. Self-fullfilling prophecy. Trying so hard to make the world exactly the way he sees it: black and white.  That is the dangers of idealists when they get involved in politics and in things that are much bigger than them and their naive ideals.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mars 2011 - 08:25 .

[Statulos]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume that Erlina deserved to die for inaction. Pragmatically speaking, what did blowing up the Chantry do?

Before, you had nobles, commoners and even Templars who sympathized with mages. After the destruction of the Chantry, what do you think the average noble, commoner and Templar is going to think?

Destroying the Chantry was an act of idiocy, Instead of trying to rally popular opinion that was in the mage's favor, that act removed the possibility completely. Because like any man consumed by paranoia (as we read in the codex), Anders can only see enemies and can't see potential allies.

And in fact, blowing it up is the best way to loose the support of a Thedas-wide institution. The chantry, while being the ideological base of the templars to exist is not the templar order.

Moreover, with an act like this, Anders is going to ****** off even Tevinter (if only, just to save the image of "good andrastians"), who is the best potential ally to mages in political terms.

[Lianaar]

Statulos wrote...
Moreover, with an act like this, Anders is going to ****** off even Tevinter (if only, just to save the image of "good andrastians"), who is the best potential ally to mages in political terms.

Not necessarily. Trevinter is all about might and people strong enough to grab the opportunity and make something from it. If the White Divine is weakened by infights and a war with mages, the Imperium has a good chance to wage a war against that branch of the Chantry and declare the ultimate power of the Black Divine over Thedas. If the Imperium is capable of using the cause of the repressed mages to offer an alternative faith and life for both the mages and non-mages, then they can win quite a bit. Not to mention they appear as the hero in the end, freeing Thedas from opression, saving Ferelden from a war with Orlais, bringing peace to Kirkwall.... no, I wouldn't say the Imperium's stance is just that easy to determine. They are not the good guys after all. (Nor -the- bad guys.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tevinter is too busy fighting the Qunari, or a very small portion of the Qunari according to Fenris. I don't think Tevinter would be able to help anyone beyond symbolic help and maybe some financial help.