350 réponses à ce sujet

[Lianaar]

Quite a lot of people seem to think the Templars are just off. I am quite unsure if that is how I see it.
Consider history of Kirkwall.
There was a time when the Qunari occupied the town and did a massive religious repurposing, using Lowtown as prison. They only won because they unleashed their mages on the opposition. Orlais then freed Kirkwall and did a different religious repurposing. Then Kirkwall fought of the Orlaisans. Then their own viscont went mad on them with taxes and blocking searoutes to other lands, which foreshadowed a war with Orlais and the Imperium both. The Chantry (being loyal to Orlais) demanded that the Templars step up against the Viscont, interveneing in politics of Kirkwall, but the Knight-Commander said no, politics is not their duty. Defending the mages from people and people from mages is their duty. Regardless because of the political tension between Orlais Divine and the Viscont, the later hired mercenaries and assassinated the Templars, having the Knight Commander's body hung in the Gallows. That made Chantry and Templars pretty pissed, the responded (if I got it right, with the lead of the new Knight Commander, called Meredith) and had the Viscont arrested and he had to pay for his crimes. Then Meredith herself appointed the new Viscont, called Dumar.

This is when we drop into the game so to say. So seeing from this perspective Meredith's actions and thoughts are not that illogical. The Templars saved the city after all (incl mages). Current history showed Meredith, that not intervining into politics will get the Knight Commander hung in the Gallows, who would want that. The Chantry took a different lesson: innocent people pay the price of war, and intervining in politics, be it at any level of the Chantry leads to massacre. Dumar knows it was Meredith, that put him into his position and recent history proved, Templars can put down a Viscont.

Then the Blight comes and the town is suddenly full of refugies, in a town that barely managed to scrap itself together. The economy is not capable of handling all those people. And the refugees are not always the best sort of people, some really are just poor blighters, but some are escaped soldiers, coward and still with money, some are apostates, some are blood mages and abominations. They all flow into Kirkwall with their own agenda, at times other then mere survival. In the same time Orlesian Revolutionarist start to sneak in, deciding Kirkwall is the best place to initiate the battle (why, it is way more comfortable then to do it in Val Royeaus after all). Not to mention that despite being illegal, slave trade still blooms, I guess the mechanisms of old are too well built out? So we have Trevinter "businessmen" of all sort linger in the city. And then Hawke comes, demanding back the power of the Amell for him or herself. One of the first things she does is putting her Ferelden refugee friend on the top of the Guard, one that opposes the Templars and is not willing to bow to them. Ignoring all the good Templars did to the town. Hawke also gets familiar with the Dwarven Merchant's Guild and has a prominent member of them as a close friend. Hawke further deals with a Grey Warden apostate, and meddles into Templar affairs (you do start with killing a set of Templars. And the Tranquil Karl believes this is how he should live. Stripped from emotions he feels a tranquil himself is a way better person, then the emotional himself. From the Templars perspective killing Karl was against the circle mage's whish).  You possibly have a joing collaboration with an Antivan mine owner too. And then the Qunari land... and they stay for longer then the occupation lasted. And it happens to turn out, the very reason they are here happens to be your compaion (possibly friend)!! The reappearance of dragons, believed to be extinct is just a little salt to the story, just like the fact the heir of the viscont picks this very time to rebell against basically everything in town.

We see corrupt/turncoat/rational/cooperative/combatitive templars, and mages all over the game. Each time those, who wish peace and cooperation pay the price, usually their lives. But mostly we see a tension that is built up over a century to explode in the act of Anders. He alone was not enough to cause the mess. He was the eclypse, but the road that lead to the eclypse was built by many "innocent" people. He was still guilty in my books, but it is good to see things in a perspective.
/* ends rambling */

[TcheQ]

Ingu wrote...

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

Actually, its completely related to modern "terrorism". The Anders and Mages/Templar issue is 100% the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. An established super power which treats others as slaves and sub-human. The established power is generally militarily superior. The underrepresented are weak and have to resort to these types of actions to strike back, and hope to draw other disenfranchised people to their cause.

They do this because people are generally ignorant of the situation and/or do very little to intercede on behalf of the mistreated. After enough time, the subjugated people get sick of their ignored plight and take it to the next level. The chantry is directly superior to the Templars, they control them, and their ignorance to the mage plight makes them directly responsible. Same situation as in Israel, every citizen serves in the military and perpetuates the subjegation of the Palestinian people. Frequently, the Templars/Isrealis kill women, children, and innocent, which causes the other sides ranks to swell. Look at what the Templars did at the end of the game. Regardless of what happened, they were willing and ready to kill ALL mages for the actions of a few (or even one).

I won't say whether it's right or wrong. But eventually people who are mistreated, and ignored by society at large get fed up, and begin to strike back against their oppressors any way possible.

Um... maybe not 100%? You're right on the rest, but I'm not sure your representation of the whole Palestinian/Israeli conflict is entirely accurate or fair...

Though in this sense you can say the Chantry is pretty much the UN in this situation, though with much more influence.

NO way, the Chantry is to the Templars and mages as the Abrahamic God worshippers is to the Jews, the Christians and the Islams

[TobiTobsen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn, Anders wants to free his people from subjugation. He's no different than the people who fought wars against tyrants and oppressive governments for freedom. By your line of thought, any group that fought against a tyrannical government is a terrorist, like the American revolutionaries. And all your quote tells me is that Anders thought there should be no compromise when the choice is between slavery and freedom.

My main problem is the fact that the fraterneties, like they are presented in the DAO Codex, besides one wouldn't even support the "revolution" Anders wants to start and yet the epilogue tells me EVERY single Circle in Thedas rises against the templars and the chantry in the end. WTF? Why? Does suddenly every mage that wasn't even a libertarian think that their own worldview was bull****? Or are just the libertarians in every circle rising up and the other mages just get caught in the crossfire?
If we assume that every libertarian in the Ferelden circle was fighting with Uldred and got slaughtered by our warden then there aren't any libertarians left in Ferelden and yet the mages rise against the templars, who they came along with pretty well, if we believe the epilogue slide.

Sounds a little bit forced if you ask me.

[In Exile]

TobiTobsen wrote...
My main problem is the fact that the fraterneties, like they are presented in the DAO Codex, besides one wouldn't even support the "revolution" Anders wants to start and yet the epilogue tells me EVERY single Circle in Thedas rises against the templars and the chantry in the end. WTF? Why? Does suddenly every mage that wasn't even a libertarian think that their own worldview was bull****? Or are just the libertarians in every circle rising up and the other mages just get caught in the crossfire?

If you meet with Wynne in DA:A, you find out there is a major meeting of mages in Cumberland where a very serious wing is pushing for full out and out independence from the Chantry. Wynne wanted the Warden Commander to find a more isolationist friend of hers in hopes of preventing the mages from outright deciding to rebell against the Chantry.

So we do have trends that mages are starting to organize and push for independence.

If we assume that every libertarian in the Ferelden circle was fighting with Uldred and got slaughtered by our warden then there aren't any libertarians left in Ferelden and yet the mages rise against the templars, who they came along with pretty well, if we believe the epilogue slide.

Sounds a little bit forced if you ask me.

I would think about it differently: the libertarians in Ferelden were a reflection of the libertarians elsewhere. Put another way, I don't think Ferelden was the only place where there was clamouring for freedom. If each Circle took the same attitude and had the same wing 10 years prior... and if the meeting in Cumberland did involve a major discussion of freedom, then attempted genocide in Kirkwall may have been enough.

We don't know how a Rite of Annulment worked in the past. Certainly if Gregoire used it in Ferelden (and if he did, that would add more tension) it would have been justified because every mage had become an abomination. But even he did not kill every mage (he would place Irving and the other surviving mages in custody/prison which seemed a pretty horrible fate from Irving's reaction but nevertheless not murder the lot) and that was for a crime and event several times worse than what happened in Kirkwall.

If word got out that Meredith wanted to annul the Circle after the act of terrorism of an apostate and years of abuse, and the other Circle were already a powerderkeg.... it's not unreasonable to have out and out war.

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn, Anders wants to free his people from subjugation. He's no different than the people who fought wars against tyrants and oppressive governments for freedom. By your line of thought, any group that fought against a tyrannical government is a terrorist, like the American revolutionaries. And all your quote tells me is that Anders thought there should be no compromise when the choice is between slavery and freedom.

*Headdesk*

I didn't realize addressing that your opinion of Anders wasn't a universal truth warranted that, especially when you look at groups like the Sons of Liberty, who initiated violence in the name of freedom and were responsible for the burning of HMS Gaspée in 1772.

Deztyn wrote...

You can call him a freedom fighter, a revolutionary, a rebel with a cause, a would-be matyr whatever you like. You are not necessarily wrong for doing so. But his methods are those of a terrorist. And you're doing exactly what I said his supporters tend to do, weasel around the "T" word any way they can because it makes them too uncomfortable.

Aren't you doing the same thing by not addressing that the same groups who attacked institutions of oppression would be considered terrorists under the same definition you provided? American revolutionists, the slaves of Saint Dominique, and the Cuban revolutionists would fall into that category.

Deztyn wrote...

It has nothing to do with his ultimate goals and how righteous they may be. It has everything to do with his methods.

Attacking one of the leaders of a religious organization with its own military, one that is responsible for the oppression and enslavement of his people for a thousand years in the name of its religion. I'm merely addressing that the events aren't as black and wwhite as you seem to think they are.

Deztyn wrote...

And that quote is part of where Anders explains why he's blown up the sisters-- to provoke a war where the only options for mages are "live free or die." As a New England girl I can appreciate that as a personal choice. Not so much when the choice is being made for me. It kind of invalidates the whole "free" part.

I'm not certain how many would prefer slavery to freedom.

[Lithuasil]

TobiTobsen wrote...
Or are just the libertarians in every circle rising up and the other mages just get caught in the crossfire?.

That's actually most likely - we've seen before, that templars, especially with fireballs flying their direction, don't take any chances. One in ten mages rising up openly, is likely sufficient to cause enough chaos, that the other nine mages either try to get away (which the templars will try to violently prevent), throw fireballs themselves, or get murdered by templars without any idea why.

[LobselVith8]

TobiTobsen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn, Anders wants to free his people from subjugation. He's no different than the people who fought wars against tyrants and oppressive governments for freedom. By your line of thought, any group that fought against a tyrannical government is a terrorist, like the American revolutionaries. And all your quote tells me is that Anders thought there should be no compromise when the choice is between slavery and freedom.

My main problem is the fact that the fraterneties, like they are presented in the DAO Codex, besides one wouldn't even support the "revolution" Anders wants to start and yet the epilogue tells me EVERY single Circle in Thedas rises against the templars and the chantry in the end. WTF? Why? Does suddenly every mage that wasn't even a libertarian think that their own worldview was bull****? Or are just the libertarians in every circle rising up and the other mages just get caught in the crossfire?
If we assume that every libertarian in the Ferelden circle was fighting with Uldred and got slaughtered by our warden then there aren't any libertarians left in Ferelden and yet the mages rise against the templars, who they came along with pretty well, if we believe the epilogue slide.

Sounds a little bit forced if you ask me.

I understand where you're coming from. If I were to try to explain why the Circles broke free, Wynne does admit that the Libertarians were gaining more mages to their side when she discusses going to Cumberland. If the vote to not risk a continential-wide genocide (which is precisely what Wynne feared would happen) was cut short because of Wynne and Ines' intervention, then I can see how their absense and word of what happened at Kirkwall might cause other mages to defect if the numbers were strongly in the Libertarians' favor to begin with. Anders, a former Grey Warden, and Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall and a possible apostate, taking on the Chantry and its templars in the heart of their base of operations over eastern Thedas, and surviving might be why Cassandra addresses Hawke (in the epilogue for the pro-Kirkwall Circle) as a "hero" of the mages who they would "listen to." Hawke essentially proved that you can take on the Chantry and the templars, and live, which likely countered Wynne's argument that opposing them would mean certain death.

[Abispa]

Any thoughts on whether "martyred" Anders may start up a cult/religion like Jesus or Andraste did? Maybe with Hawke becoming either Pilate or John the Baptist? Whether or not he intended it, I can easily see a religion starting over this, complete with symbols, mythology and "holy books."

[Aynslie]

In Exile wrote... 

We don't know how a Rite of Annulment worked in the past. Certainly if Gregoire used it in Ferelden (and if he did, that would add more tension) it would have been justified because every mage had become an abomination. But even he did not kill every mage (he would place Irving and the other surviving mages in custody/prison which seemed a pretty horrible fate from Irving's reaction but nevertheless not murder the lot) and that was for a crime and event several times worse than what happened in Kirkwall.

The Right of Annullment was given to the Grand Clerics by the Divine, to use after Abominations were running rampant and killing people about 700 years ago.  It is a last resort to be used only if the Circle is beyond saving.  Knight Commanders don't have authority to use it themselves.  However, in Fereldan Gregoir was recieving no replies from Denerim because of the Civil War/Blight, and in Kirkwall the Grand Cleric was killed.  I can only assume that only in these types of situations can a Knight Commander take the Right of Annullment into their own hands.

I think the Annullment is unjustified as every time a mage is doing something messed up in Kirkwall it is an apostate.  I'm not just talking about Anders destorying the Chantry, but every single blood mage/ abomination, with the exception of a few of them, are apostates.  The poor Circle Mages seem like innocent bystanders who got caught up in the middle of a fight between Templars and Apostate Mages and they are getting punished for it.

As far as Justifying Anders, I went on YouTube and listened to the Awakenings party banter.  It is Justice who wants to free the Mages, and it is Justice who pushes Anders into it, I think.  Anders doesn't want to free the mages, he just wants to be free.  Justice: "Apathy is a weakness."  Anders: "So is death, I'm just sayin!"

 I don't think their merging is complete because Anders tends to be fighting for control so, to me, Anders and Justice are still separate entities in one body but are becoming one as the story progresses.  By end-game Justice seems to have more of the control.  Anders will tell Hawke that he is having more blanks in his memory and not to hate him for failing.  By end-game Anders is less Anders and more Justice.  Over all I blame Justice for what is happening.  It is his narrow vision of the world (seeing everything through the black and white lens of Justice) and single minded determination that is driving DA2 Anders.  I can't fault Anders for wanting to help his friend or wanting to help free mages from the Circle, and I don't think Justice going all nutty was foreseeable.  Wynne has a spirit possessing her and they didn't go nuts.  Spirits and Demons are different beings, however, being in the physical world for so long may have warped Justice before he even merged with Anders.  

At any rate, I do not shift all blame from Anders when it comes to blowing the Chantry.  However, I do believe there are alot of people to blame as well.  Hawke for knowing something bad was happening and allowing it.  Cullen for not taking my Hawke seriously when she told him Anders was up to something.  Justice for warping/controlling Anders.  And Grand Cleric for being unresponsive to the major issues in her city.  Knight Commander Meredith for being corrupted by the idol for 3-4 years and going Stalin on the mages.  The Resolutionists causing the uproar which pushes Meredith over the edge and to go to extremes.  Ser Alrik for what he did to Karl....the list goes on.  Everything contributed to that moment.  It was just Anders who lit the fuse.

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't you doing the same thing by not addressing that the same groups who attacked institutions of oppression would be considered terrorists under the same definition you provided?

They were terrorists.

Just because some terrorists are remembered more fondly than others doesn't mean they're not technically terrorists. 
That is my point.

Sage: Why don't people link this to terrorism?

Dez: Because the T word is scary and people want to call him something that sounds nicer when they agree with him.

You: Terrorists are bad! Anders is good! He's a revolutionary! Not a terrorist.

Dez: 

I'm not certain how many would prefer slavery to freedom.

For starters not everyone sees it as slavery. Some mages like the Circle. Or want to make improvements to the current system without World War Thedas. Or just want to be left alone. Or would take the Templars protection over a family and village that hates and fears them. Or just think taking an action that almost guarantees that 99% of the world will turn completely against them is bad idea. I suspect in-universe a lot more mages are cursing him than praising him, even among Libertarians.

Modifié par Deztyn, 27 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[Camenae]

Siradix wrote...

Anders didn't do it for the mages, he did it for himself. Right before you kill him, he starts talking about how famous he'll be for what he has done. I wanted to stab him twice for that.

 
I too took great offense to that.  And I thought it was out of character for him too, since so far he seems to feel bad about the consequences of his actions and to accept it as necessity because he believes it is ultimately for the good of all mages.  Then he goes and says something that is so disgustingly selfish. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Camenae wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Anders didn't do it for the mages, he did it for himself. Right before you kill him, he starts talking about how famous he'll be for what he has done. I wanted to stab him twice for that.

 
I too took great offense to that.  And I thought it was out of character for him too, since so far he seems to feel bad about the consequences of his actions and to accept it as necessity because he believes it is ultimately for the good of all mages.  Then he goes and says something that is so disgustingly selfish. 

To be fair, while there is a hint of selfishness, I think he also wanted to be a symbol. A rallying point. Nothing is more powerful than a symbolic martyr.

For a real world example. All that is happening in the Middle East, for good or ill, was sparked by one poor sod setting fire on himself.

That said, I am not impressed either. If the best he could do is die, then someone like him is clearly not qualified to make a choice that is much much bigger than him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[ModernMan2009]

Anders' hatred and pain caused him to stop becoming the Justice and instead he became Vengeance.
That was the point behind that not so subtle change in outfits. He basically took on that cliche "bad guy in black" outfit to make it clear to the audience he had changed from virtuous to vengeful.

[Terastar]

May take is this:
Anders will be dead in 30 years. During this time control of Justice through him is possible. That is why I keep him alive. Justice when he was in the body of Kristoff wanted to stay in this world I think that is one reason he talked to Anders to merge with him. Justice wanted to feel the human emotions of love and other things. Justice says he is trapped in this world and can not go back. Maybe he can't go back in his spirit form but I if you take Anders into the fade then why can't Justice then leave Anders body and remain in the fade? Does killing Anders outside the fade kill Justice? Vengeance? or just Anders ? If it does Kill Justice do we want a world without the spirit of Justice? Why did Meredith not kill Anders? Was the Chantry empty? Maybe Meredith had everyone rounded up because she was going to invoke the right of annulment and that was why she wasn't interested in killing Anders. Justice is more responsible than Anders but how do we place Justice back in the fade?

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't you doing the same thing by not addressing that the same groups who attacked institutions of oppression would be considered terrorists under the same definition you provided?

They were terrorists.

Just because some terrorists are remembered more fondly than others doesn't mean they're not technically terrorists. 

It also means not everyone would view Anders by that label and incessantly use it for him any more than people would view the Cuban revolutionaries, the former slaves of Saint Dominique, or the American revolutionists by that term.

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not certain how many would prefer slavery to freedom.

For starters not everyone sees it as slavery. Some mages like the Circle. Or want to make improvements to the current system without World War Thedas. Or just want to be left alone. Or would take the Templars protection over a family and village that hates and fears them. Or just think taking an action that almost guarantees that 99% of the world will turn completely against them is bad idea. I suspect in-universe a lot more mages are cursing him than praising him, even among Libertarians.

The current system denied mages basic rights and forced them into servitude. The fact that all the Circles rose up and emancipated themselves from Chantry control after learning about what happened at Kirkwall shows that enough mages felt they should be free.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It also means not everyone would view Anders by that label and incessantly use it for him any more than people would view the Cuban revolutionaries, the former slaves of Saint Dominique, or the American revolutionists by that term.

And some of them very well deserve the term to be applied to them.

Anders is one such.

The current system denied mages basic rights and forced them into servitude.

Mages are not forced to work.

We don't even have any basis to say that even the Tranquil are forced to work against their will either.

The fact that all the Circles rose up and emancipated themselves from Chantry control after learning about what happened at Kirkwall shows that enough mages felt they should be free.

'Enough' being... incredibly vague, unhelpful, and without any implication of a majority support.

[Jean]

Camenae wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Anders didn't do it for the mages, he did it for himself. Right before you kill him, he starts talking about how famous he'll be for what he has done. I wanted to stab him twice for that.

 
I too took great offense to that.  And I thought it was out of character for him too, since so far he seems to feel bad about the consequences of his actions and to accept it as necessity because he believes it is ultimately for the good of all mages.  Then he goes and says something that is so disgustingly selfish. 

I've never seen this. Is there a video of it anywhere?

[Ingu]

...I'm left wishing Bioware set the scene better so things are actually clearer than they were left. A lot of what's going on is just debate over the ambiguities which we have no way of ever finding out unless we get more lore/story experience.

[Camenae]

Batteries wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Anders didn't do it for the mages, he did it for himself. Right before you kill him, he starts talking about how famous he'll be for what he has done. I wanted to stab him twice for that.

 
I too took great offense to that.  And I thought it was out of character for him too, since so far he seems to feel bad about the consequences of his actions and to accept it as necessity because he believes it is ultimately for the good of all mages.  Then he goes and says something that is so disgustingly selfish. 

I've never seen this. Is there a video of it anywhere?

Okay well I'm having a hard time finding a video of this scene on Youtube where people chose to execute Anders AND did not romance him.  So I took a screenshot:

[Medhia Nox]

He's so classy that Anders... if I ever decide to do an "official" playthrough having heard that the Expansion or DA: 3 is actually worth purchasing... I'm going to keep him alive, and in chains, as I drag him around undoing what he did.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And some of them very well deserve the term to be applied to them.

Anders is one such.

Because he attacked a high ranking member of an institution that engaged in slavery?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mages are not forced to work.

We don't even have any basis to say that even the Tranquil are forced to work against their will either.

Yet Hawke, when arguing against the Circle, says "Forcing mages into servitude isn't the way to prevent the rise of another Imperium" in discussion with Anders. In fact, the codex for Cold-Blooded reads:

"Starkhaven escaped from the Circle of Magi in the winter of 8:76 Blessed, the coldest winter that the Free Marches had seen in decades. He decided that it was better to die a free man than remain a servant to the Chantry and broke out of the Circle's stronghold, fleeing into an unforgiving blizzard."

And the tranquil are (according to Karl after he was made tranquil) "templar puppets," and even one of the tranquil tells her bethrothed at the Gallows that she no longer remembers him, and that only Knight-Captain Cullen can "command her."

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'Enough' being... incredibly vague, unhelpful, and without any implication of a majority support.

Are you arguing that the minority of mages emancipated the Circles without the consent of the majority?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 mars 2011 - 03:46 .

[LobselVith8]

Camenae wrote...

Okay well I'm having a hard time finding a video of this scene on Youtube where people chose to execute Anders AND did not romance him. 

He wanted his death to inspire mages not to accept a life of servitude and oppression.

Medhia Nox wrote...

He's so classy that Anders... if I ever decide to do an "official" playthrough having heard that the Expansion or DA: 3 is actually worth purchasing... I'm going to keep him alive, and in chains, as I drag him around undoing what he did.

What he did was take a stand against slavery by attacking an institution of members of the Chantry, who had been enslaving mages for a millennia.

[Camenae]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Okay well I'm having a hard time finding a video of this scene on Youtube where people chose to execute Anders AND did not romance him. 

He wanted his death to inspire mages not to accept a life of servitude and oppression.

I understand that.  I talked to him extensively and romanced him on every playthrough except that one where I took the screenshot from, because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about with Fenris.

I took offense at the WAY he said it.  It would have looked better for him if he had said, "All I wanted was to galvanize my fellow mages to rise up" or something, WHICH WAS ENTIRELY TRUE and indeed was what I expected him to say.  Instead he worded it in a way that made it all about him, when I thought he was doing it for all the mages...That was my issue with that whole line, that it seemingly showed a selfishness and an ulterior motive that I didn't see before. 

[Medhia Nox]

LobselVith8 - can't wait to kill every Libertarian and Resolutionist I see as my mage in the expansion.

[Deztyn]

The current system denied mages basic rights and forced them into servitude. The fact that all the Circles rose up and emancipated themselves from Chantry control after learning about what happened at Kirkwall shows that enough mages felt they should be free.

Okay. Fine. I don't want argue about slavery or the rights of mages who don't agree with Anders anymore.

Anders broke the Circles!

Every mage ever cheered when a chantry blew up!

Now what?

Modifié par Deztyn, 28 mars 2011 - 04:10 .