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It's official dragon age 2 is a commercial fail


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#176
Tezzajh

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Volourn wrote...

"true but no one left mid game in origins and the diffrence of origins is if i wanted to destroy the urn of ashes i simply wouldn't bring lelianna and lie to her when i get back but DA2 there is no way around the isabella thing you have to use her or she is gone "

yeah, but only if you know spoilers and what not and know before hand that Leilianna would attack you there. If Lelinan was your fave DA1 characetr you would have likely taken you with her and then have to face the potential consequences.

And, you don't have to take Izzy everywhere to get her friendship up. I didn't, and managed just fine. I split time with her and Varric as my party rogue.


but still the very fact you have to use her at least once to get freindship up is determing how you play, say for example im the main rouge in the party i wouldnt want to use another rouge, or i want to mix my party up to see how campanions react with each other at certain points, but i miss out beacuse i no thats a issabella freindhip moment

#177
randallman

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Volourn wrote...

"I was on the bio boards as well... I didn't see the h8... Not like this."

You have a faulty memory then. The hate then makes the 'hate' here seem like child's play. Most of the hate here is more along the lines of 'DA2 is not as good as DA1'.. the hate (the vocal) was more likem 'nwn is the worst game of all time and bio should die and i hateveryone blah blah blah).

beleive me, this the DA2 'hate' is rather full of clamness and relaxation. You couldn't have a disucssion with the haters there... you can with majority of DA2 'haters'.


I think we're all just worried about getting our accounts banned from playing other EA games :-)

#178
Volourn

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C&C.

You don't adventure with her, don't act as a trusted friend.. why should she trust you with her life?

That's beautiful C&C.


"I think we're all just worried about getting our accounts banned from playing other EA games :-)"

Yeah, but that don't work for the 360 version since  you don't need to be online to play it. <>

Modifié par Volourn, 28 mars 2011 - 10:30 .


#179
scpulley

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JelleSlaets wrote...

The real commercial backlash however, could be future sales of the DA franchise, depending on how many people were put off by this version


That is exactly why I chuckle that people are screaming about it being a failure. They likely already made back their money or will very easily, which is all they wanted. This game was out so Bioware had some cashflow while TOR is getting finished since that's now pushed back it looks like to Q3. I don't know, I think DA 3 pre-order sales will be the indication of how accepting people will be of this model as by the time most of the negative news was coming out, Bioware already had all that pre-order money. Now that we know how they are doing the DA series from here on out, according to the Lead Developer, we can judge how we feel about the changes with how well DA 3 sells through preorders.

#180
Deified Data

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Rixxencaxx wrote...

http://www.vgchartz.com/weekly.php

So at the end of the second week of sales an AAA multiplatform game sold less than 1 million copies.
As the second week data shows, sales are decreasing and there is no turnaround on the horizon.

So in the end...Bioware launched it's first "bad" or "meh" game doing damage to his reputation..and reputation in the market means money.

For sure, the idea of "changing" the game to appeal the cod crowd (when cod crowd means a public of 10 millions people) failed.

4 million of loyal fans weren't enough?
now 1 million (maybe 1,5 in the end) will be better.......


**** yeah, death to Bioware!

What the point of this thread is, I don't know. "****, this game I love is getting poor sales - quick, trade it in!" What's the endgame, here?

#181
winterborn_89

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they're eating up their money advertising it on TV in a last ditch effort to boost its sales, but it's still dropping! epic fail! now guys, now that you've embarrassed all the interwebs and your entire company, how about making a PROPER dragon age game to redeem yourself?

#182
randallman

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Deified Data wrote...

**** yeah, death to Bioware!

What the point of this thread is, I don't know. "****, this game I love is getting poor sales - quick, trade it in!" What's the endgame, here?


Misery loves company.  I don't hate bioware, but I do in-fact hate this game!  Frankly, Im taking $59.99 out in enjoyment complaining about how much I hate the game :0

--Randall

#183
Tezzajh

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winterborn_89 wrote...

they're eating up their money advertising it on TV in a last ditch effort to boost its sales, but it's still dropping! epic fail! now guys, now that you've embarrassed all the interwebs and your entire company, how about making a PROPER dragon age game to redeem yourself?


not doing enough adverts, havent seen 1 on uk TV only FX

#184
Tommy6860

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Volourn wrote...

C&C.

You don't adventure with her, don't act as a trusted friend.. why should she trust you with her life?

That's beautiful C&C.


"I think we're all just worried about getting our accounts banned from playing other EA games :-)"

Yeah, but that don't work for the 360 version since  you don't need to be online to play it. <>


You don't have to be online with the PC version either, once one has entered the activation code.

#185
Sidney

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winterborn_89 wrote...

they're eating up their money advertising it on TV in a last ditch effort to boost its sales, but it's still dropping! epic fail! now guys, now that you've embarrassed all the interwebs and your entire company, how about making a PROPER dragon age game to redeem yourself?


Please I'm pathetic and sad just copy paste the first game so I can play it again. Never change, never evolve other than to make crafting potions even more complicated - maybe a herb growing mini-game - and waaaaaa I want to pick each gauntlet individually. I can't customize if I wear matching gauntlets! Why won't Bioware let me have choices!

Seriously, all of you people who act betrayed by this need to wake up. This game was such a tiny modification of DAO that no one outside the realm of the sort of people who get worked up about this are going to see this as a failure of "mainstream-ization" it will be seen as a failure of an RPG and that's not really a good thing.

#186
randallman

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Sidney wrote...

Please I'm pathetic and sad just copy paste the first game so I can play it again. Never change, never evolve other than to make crafting potions even more complicated - maybe a herb growing mini-game - and waaaaaa I want to pick each gauntlet individually. I can't customize if I wear matching gauntlets! Why won't Bioware let me have choices!

Seriously, all of you people who act betrayed by this need to wake up. This game was such a tiny modification of DAO that no one outside the realm of the sort of people who get worked up about this are going to see this as a failure of "mainstream-ization" it will be seen as a failure of an RPG and that's not really a good thing.


If they had taken the DA:O engine and wrote a new story, I'd be happy.  See BGI vs. BGII... Heck you can even install Tutu to run BGI in BGII's engine.

If you call that pathetic, than pathetic I am.

And you said it better than I did... 'All you people who act betrayed'.  Indeed there are many of us.

As for tiny modifications?  Combat was TOTALLY overhauled.  Proficiency trees, totally overhauled.  Skill trees, erradicated.  Epic story line, deleted.  Areas with character, omitted.

EDIT: Perhaps many people do not realize the value of having a consistent RULE set for a game and its successors.  BGI and BGII both loosely followed the Pen and Paper DnD 2nd ED rules.  NWN1 loosely followed the 3rd ED rules.  NWN2 (not a bioware title, I know) followed the 3.5th ED rules.  KOTOR also followed the basic D20 rules that was set forth in the Star Wars PnP games.  BAB, Saving Throws, etc... all very common amongst the above games.  Sure, 2nd ED had 'THAC0' vs. BAB, but I digress.  ALl of these games before shared much in common with the rules of traditional PnP.  DA, on the other hand, pushed that mold - and it was a gamble that paid off.  Nevermind the fact that noone really has the right to use the D&D rules right now.  Unfortunately, DA2 pushed those rules even further and came up WAY short.


--Randall

Modifié par randallman, 28 mars 2011 - 11:05 .


#187
Sidney

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randallman wrote...
And you said it better than I did... 'All you people who act betrayed'.  Indeed there are many of us.

As for tiny modifications?  Combat was TOTALLY overhauled.  Proficiency trees, totally overhauled.  Skill trees, erradicated.  Epic story line, deleted.  Areas with character, omitted.

--Randall


Combat was not totally overhauled. Please, it is the same. You and your fellow gripers are too busy watching thr scene and not paying attention to what is happening under the hood. Yes some things but total overhaul, put down the pipe. Frankly, and I'll come back to this, if they'd done DA2 to DAO you'd be griping about slowing down so the console kiddies have time to think but because you are who you are it doesn't matter what the change is, you hate it.

Yes, they changed the skills trees from ladders to webs. It is light years different - hell it is better. I think the funny thing with this is if they'd gone from webs to ladders you same people'd loose your minds about "simplification" or "consoleization" because it was too complicated to choose multiple paths.

Epic storyline....yes gone is your confortable generic high fantasy story. We should bring back the dumbed down, pre-chewed for your satifsfaction story of Generically Underpowered Hero growing in might to vanquish Overwhelming Evil that should have sent the good troops sooner.

#188
randallman

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Sidney wrote...

Combat was not totally overhauled. Please, it is the same. You and your fellow gripers are too busy watching thr scene and not paying attention to what is happening under the hood. Yes some things but total overhaul, put down the pipe. Frankly, and I'll come back to this, if they'd done DA2 to DAO you'd be griping about slowing down so the console kiddies have time to think but because you are who you are it doesn't matter what the change is, you hate it.

Yes, they changed the skills trees from ladders to webs. It is light years different - hell it is better. I think the funny thing with this is if they'd gone from webs to ladders you same people'd loose your minds about "simplification" or "consoleization" because it was too complicated to choose multiple paths.

Epic storyline....yes gone is your confortable generic high fantasy story. We should bring back the dumbed down, pre-chewed for your satifsfaction story of Generically Underpowered Hero growing in might to vanquish Overwhelming Evil that should have sent the good troops sooner.


It was totally overhauled.  Heals are all but useless now - potions rule the day.  The speed of combat was turned up to 11.  You don't auto-crit as a rogue when attacking from behind - instead you have a magic backstab for which the sound effects are akin to a mail tube in a pneumatic messaging system (like at the bank) and you teleport from wherever you are to behind the monster you are backstabbing...  Damage figures in excess of 1000...  And the wave mechanics.

EDIT: And the fact that you're bordering on ad hominem attacks only further proves that you've already lost the argument.  Furthermore, we play RPG games for the high fantasy 'save the world' motif.  Heck, look at ME1 and ME2 - you're saving the world there.  Look at aRPGs like Dungeon Siege - saving the world there too.  This is more like grand theft auto where you go from poor to less-poor over the course of the game.  This WORKS in a modern urban setting...  Not in the world of dragon age :)

--Randall

Modifié par randallman, 28 mars 2011 - 11:10 .


#189
Tommy6860

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Sidney wrote...

randallman wrote...
And you said it better than I did... 'All you people who act betrayed'.  Indeed there are many of us.

As for tiny modifications?  Combat was TOTALLY overhauled.  Proficiency trees, totally overhauled.  Skill trees, erradicated.  Epic story line, deleted.  Areas with character, omitted.

--Randall


Combat was not totally overhauled. Please, it is the same. You and your fellow gripers are too busy watching thr scene and not paying attention to what is happening under the hood. Yes some things but total overhaul, put down the pipe. Frankly, and I'll come back to this, if they'd done DA2 to DAO you'd be griping about slowing down so the console kiddies have time to think but because you are who you are it doesn't matter what the change is, you hate it.

Yes, they changed the skills trees from ladders to webs. It is light years different - hell it is better. I think the funny thing with this is if they'd gone from webs to ladders you same people'd loose your minds about "simplification" or "consoleization" because it was too complicated to choose multiple paths.

Epic storyline....yes gone is your confortable generic high fantasy story. We should bring back the dumbed down, pre-chewed for your satifsfaction story of Generically Underpowered Hero growing in might to vanquish Overwhelming Evil that should have sent the good troops sooner.


You're more than entitled to your thoughts, but if that's what you think, then DA2 should have something other than Dragon Age in its title. The combat is way too fast and it isn't the smooth looking  and realistic moves that Origins had. I mean, as just one aspect of DA2, compare the two when fighting as a Rgoue. In DA2, the moves are pause quick then hit like it is robotic. Whereas in Origins, the moves look more human and fluid.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 28 mars 2011 - 11:11 .


#190
Jitter

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Sidney wrote...

randallman wrote...
And you said it better than I did... 'All you people who act betrayed'.  Indeed there are many of us.

As for tiny modifications?  Combat was TOTALLY overhauled.  Proficiency trees, totally overhauled.  Skill trees, erradicated.  Epic story line, deleted.  Areas with character, omitted.

--Randall


Combat was not totally overhauled. Please, it is the same. You and your fellow gripers are too busy watching thr scene and not paying attention to what is happening under the hood. Yes some things but total overhaul, put down the pipe. Frankly, and I'll come back to this, if they'd done DA2 to DAO you'd be griping about slowing down so the console kiddies have time to think but because you are who you are it doesn't matter what the change is, you hate it.

Yes, they changed the skills trees from ladders to webs. It is light years different - hell it is better. I think the funny thing with this is if they'd gone from webs to ladders you same people'd loose your minds about "simplification" or "consoleization" because it was too complicated to choose multiple paths.

Epic storyline....yes gone is your confortable generic high fantasy story. We should bring back the dumbed down, pre-chewed for your satifsfaction story of Generically Underpowered Hero growing in might to vanquish Overwhelming Evil that should have sent the good troops sooner.


Do you know that humans have been telling that story , in several forms for over 3000 years.
If not for that exact same theme, you are dismissing , Hollywood would be bankrupt. 

It ain't broke , it is the only thing that keeps most of us able to go to work every day. 

#191
randallman

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Oh one more tidbit regarding NWN reception... Quoting wikipedia:

Wikipedia said...

In general, Neverwinter Nights met with positive reviews, receiving "universal acclaim" according to Metacritic.[17] GameSpot
referred to it as "one of those exceedingly rare games that has a lot
to offer virtually everyone, even if they aren't already into RPGs", and
praised it for its campaign, its Aurora toolset, and its graphics.[20] PC Gamer US
called it "a total package — a PC gaming classic for the ages", and
said that its "storyline [is] as persuasive as any I’ve encountered in a
fantasy roleplaying game".[23] Allgame found that the game's story was "humdrum" and "mediocre".[18]


And DA2 reception:

Wikipedia said... (bold is my annotation)

Not all reviewers praised the changes however. VideoGamer
said the game "never progresses beyond the identity issues it had with
Origins", criticized the lack of noticeable characters, small area of
setting, while adding "simplification of combat doesn't work in the
game's favour".[42] Game Informer
gave the PC version of the game a score of 7.75 and the console
versions an 8.25, criticizing the poorly designed combat system, stating
"On all platforms, Dragon Age II caters to an audience that didn’t
connect with Origins, while alienating those who did"
and "improving the
polish doesn’t do much good when the basics still need work".[33]



#192
Sidney

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randallman wrote...

It was totally overhauled.  Heals are all but useless now - potions rule the day.  The speed of combat was turned up to 11.  You don't auto-crit as a rogue when attacking from behind - instead you have a magic backstab for which the sound effects are akin to a mail tube in a pneumatic messaging system (like at the bank) and you teleport from wherever you are to behind the monster you are backstabbing...  Damage figures in excess of 1000...  And the wave mechanics.

Furthermore, we play RPG games for the high fantasy 'save the world' motif.  Heck, look at ME1 and ME2 - you're saving the world there.  L


You could spam potions to the end of time in DAO. Did I miss buying 200 of them and never running out? You are talking about the cooldown time on one spell as a "major" change. Seriously, that's not major.  You do not auto-crit as a rogue, you have to get skills that allow you to exploit those you catch unawares. That's a change, major, not so much. Since DAO already allowed you to Shadow up and attack people I'm not sure changing the look means much - the "teleport" would be the PoV of anyone you stealthed in DAO. Again, that is a visual element not a mechanism.  Speed turned up, sound effects are all the "flash" elements. I was talking about.  What you've done is just what I was tlkaing about, parsing for every little variation.

This isn't even the ME1 to ME2 shift which by comparison to this was flippin' epic. FO3 took a major turn from FO2's combat. I can tell you w/o diving into petty game mechanics what chnaged. DA2 is still a pure RPG combat experience where you point/click and something dies. Pausable real time combat with party control and an elaborate AI system for your party. KoTOR combat was faster than this - then again KoTOR's combat was better than either DA* game - heck BG2's combat was faster than this with your little tiny blue circled specks.

DA2 has a lot of flaws: badly re-used assets, the enemy waves, an Act I that lacks a narrative drive, a buggy Act III that deserve plpenty of flack but to argue it has left your RPG love at the altar is hard to justify.

#193
Volourn

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"Oh one more tidbit regarding NWN reception... Quoting wikipedia:"

wikipedia is NOT the bio forums

We know NWN got great reviews (91). I'm talking about the forums whcih is what started our discussion.

#194
Atilius the Hun

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I don't think that this game's not-so-fantastic (but not bad) quality will impact sales of games such as ME3 and TOR. There are lots of Mass Effect and KOTOR fans that will buy these games without hesitation. I'm certainly one of them. Both ME3 and KOTOR will be on pre-order status for me.

#195
Drake_Hound

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Altima Darkspells wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Regardless of how well Dragon age 2 sells haters will continue to stick their fingers in their ears and scream very loudly about how terrible they think this game is.


Conversely, no matter how much DA2 sucks, BioWare fan-people will continue to laud praise and affection upon it.

See that?  It goes both ways.

People can dislike the game, y'know.  In fact, it seems a lot of people do.  Just like some people can really, really like the game.

You don't have to insult people who disagree with your point of view.

...fatty.


And I think your opnion is a bit rude , cause basically with every Bioware game this same typical nonesense happens , ME2 NWN DA:O now DA2 , it is nothing new to long time fan of genre .
Infact if you have dislike of the game , then so be it , bad luck don´t buy the next .
But even in DA2 they tried something new , infact the negativity is getting so big , that it outweighs the postive .
4 party group instead of 3 , bringing back a bit of baldurs gate .
Faster action system instead of mindless pressing a couple buttons , sure trade off is the tactical system ..
Every bioware game has traded something for another .

You can say DA2 stinks , well it may have to do with the story  or story ending .
But for some gamers out there , they just want a week gaming nothing more nothing less.
Guess what population you are in when you want 1 year gaming for 50 ? that is correct the minority .

#196
randallman

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Sidney wrote...

You could spam potions to the end of time in DAO. Did I miss buying 200 of them and never running out? You are talking about the cooldown time on one spell as a "major" change. Seriously, that's not major.  You do not auto-crit as a rogue, you have to get skills that allow you to exploit those you catch unawares. That's a change, major, not so much. Since DAO already allowed you to Shadow up and attack people I'm not sure changing the look means much - the "teleport" would be the PoV of anyone you stealthed in DAO. Again, that is a visual element not a mechanism.  Speed turned up, sound effects are all the "flash" elements. I was talking about.  What you've done is just what I was tlkaing about, parsing for every little variation.


Of course I'm parsing for every little variation.  The Devil is in the Details so to speak...  Its the 'details' that this game messed up the most.  You didn't HAVE to spam potions in DA:O, you could *gasp* use a healer!  In DA2, using a healer on any difficulty other than normal is really mostly pointless due to the cool down.  It *is* a major change, believe it or not.  Furthermore, backstabbing as a rogue gave you auto-crits in DA:O and in every other PnP RPG it gave at least a large advantage to the critical chance.

Sidney wrote...

This isn't even the ME1 to ME2 shift which by comparison to this was flippin' epic. FO3 took a major turn from FO2's combat. I can tell you w/o diving into petty game mechanics what chnaged. DA2 is still a pure RPG combat experience where you point/click and something dies. Pausable real time combat with party control and an elaborate AI system for your party. KoTOR combat was faster than this - then again KoTOR's combat was better than either DA* game - heck BG2's combat was faster than this with your little tiny blue circled specks.


Erm.... KoTOR's combat was not faster.  I don't know what you are talking about.  It was VERY clearly a turn-based game turned into a 'real-timeish' experience.  But I do agree that the combat system KOTOR was ''better'' than in DA:O or DA2.  I remember being reluctant to start DA:O because of the attribute system being so different than what I was used to with the 3d6 system with very few attribute gains (1 every 4 levels) throughout your 20 level career.  But at the end of the day, the DA:O system was biddable enough (to quote Anora regarding Alistar's worthiness as a king)

Sidney wrote...

DA2 has a lot of flaws: badly re-used assets, the enemy waves, an Act I that lacks a narrative drive, a buggy Act III that deserve plpenty of flack but to argue it has left your RPG love at the altar is hard to justify.


Actually, it hasnt left my RPG love at the altar...  Just my love for the DA world and its future expansions. 

Furthermore, the general industry trend towards 'streamlining' as is seen in Crysis 2, Civ V, and DA2 is alarming.  DA2 was really the straw that broke the camel's back (even though Crysis 2 was after DA2) in terms of this problem.  PC gaming is, for all intents and purposes, now relegated to the MMOs and (for now) RTS games.  FPSs will all be console ports, RPGs will all be console ports, and all I'll have left to use my 500$ video card for is Mozilla and MS Word.

Unfortunately, the demise of PC gaming also spells the demise of games that teach critical thinking skills...  Because I want to "press a button and have something awesome happen"

...

#197
RohanD

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Volourn wrote...

Then explain why JE is relativelyn low end sales wise despite its rather impressive 89? Hmm..


JE came out on the XBOX first, which was a second rate console in the industry at the time without a huge market penetration compared to the far superior PS2 and was not known to be an RPG platform.

#198
Sidney

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randallman wrote...

Erm.... KoTOR's combat was not faster.  I don't know what you are talking about. 

Furthermore, the general industry trend towards 'streamlining' as is seen in Crysis 2, Civ V, and DA2 is alarming.  DA2 was really the straw that broke the camel's back (even though Crysis 2 was after DA2) in terms of this problem.  PC gaming is, for all intents and purposes, now relegated to the MMOs and (for now) RTS games.  FPSs will all be console ports, RPGs will all be console ports, and all I'll have left to use my 500$ video card for is Mozilla and MS Word.

Unfortunately, the demise of PC gaming also spells the demise of games that teach critical thinking skills...  Because I want to "press a button and have something awesome happen"


KoTOR's animations sure as heck were faster. If you had trouble with DA2's animations making it hard to press pause then KoTOR's insane Jedi moves must have melted your brain. I wish someone would bring back queuing - like oh, yes, Dragon Age but I guess in theory the AI scripts basically serve the same effect.

Streamlining isn't bad. There's no deeper game out there then Victoria by Paradox but the game is well neigh unplayable it is so dense - and I played Harpoon on the table top so I've been down the dense road. Streamlining is just a code for anything you don't like but DA2 isn't streamlined in any meaningful way. Character creation is the same. Skill webs are more complicated than skill ladders. Combat is the same and with CCC is actually more complex. Dialog actually presents more options than the "Good", "Bad" and "What?" options in the DAO conversatiosn - there's what 17 moods you can present during the game. Good luck finding 7 emotions in DAO. The only thing "streamlined" is junk inventory and companion armor. I think the skill webs and CCC add more complexity than those two elements take away.

I doubt playing DAO over DA2 will change your critical thinking skills one iota.

#199
Sidney

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RohanD wrote...

JE came out on the XBOX first, which was a second rate console in the industry at the time without a huge market penetration compared to the far superior PS2 and was not known to be an RPG platform.


Well and Jade had the sin of being neither Hi Fantasy or Sci Fi so it violated the rut RPG gamers like to lie in. Toss a guy in plate mail on the cover and the sales woulda doubled.

#200
randallman

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Sidney wrote...

KoTOR's animations sure as heck were faster. If you had trouble with DA2's animations making it hard to press pause then KoTOR's insane Jedi moves must have melted your brain. I wish someone would bring back queuing - like oh, yes, Dragon Age but I guess in theory the AI scripts basically serve the same effect.


We'll have to agree to disagree.  The only one that I can think of is the 'flip into combat' that the Jedi Defender could do.  There was also a HEFTY pause between rounds of combat... and yes, there was a queue of actions.

Sidney wrote...
Streamlining isn't bad. There's no deeper game out there then Victoria by Paradox but the game is well neigh unplayable it is so dense - and I played Harpoon on the table top so I've been down the dense road. Streamlining is just a code for anything you don't like but DA2 isn't streamlined in any meaningful way. Character creation is the same. Skill webs are more complicated than skill ladders. Combat is the same and with CCC is actually more complex. Dialog actually presents more options than the "Good", "Bad" and "What?" options in the DAO conversatiosn - there's what 17 moods you can present during the game. Good luck finding 7 emotions in DAO. The only thing "streamlined" is junk inventory and companion armor. I think the skill webs and CCC add more complexity than those two elements take away.

I doubt playing DAO over DA2 will change your critical thinking skills one iota.


Ok, so DA:O didn't really do much for critical thinking skills either - EXCEPT perhaps the tactics that were necessary on some encounters... The min/maxing that you do after your first playthrough to understand and capitalize on the system, and finally the 1 or 2 puzzles that were in the game...

And sure, there are games out there for number crunchers, but they are becoming fewer by the minute...