37 réponses à ce sujet

[Att3r0]

Apart from few boss fights like wrath or high dragon the strategy seem to be same in all cases: RUN AWAY!
No i dont mean kiting - while im quite sick of kiting yet its ok.
The thing is that most of time i cant deal with subsequent waves on nightmare. I play mage and with setup Merrill Aveline Varric, i dont use potions.
SO after getting in the fight i run away, some enemies follow some stay , even if all will follow the subsequent waves wont come so things become from very hard to very easy. Not to mention i do get out of ombat often and can save while there are yet enemies left.

Do You also fight like that?

[TcheQ]

Yes.

It took 35 hours for me to get out of Kirkwall fighting like that, getting instakilled by Assassins and Rage Demons alike. It's ridiculously tedious and unfun, but it's the only way to win.

[Zan Mura]

It is the best strategy, that's true. It's not the only viable one as you can just camp in a corner or any other feasible spot especially if you know the spawn spots. And you can survive the 360 degree mob spawn wave mechanic, with a well built group. But the best and most risk-free tactic always is to run away so you force the excess numbers into a bottleneck for your tank or AoE's, and so the respawns never get to magically appear behind your mages.

Agreed, this is the biggest problem with how DA2 combat was built. It's like back to the era of Nintendo and Commodore 64 games where you cleared a room only to have an infinite number of enemies just appear there. You'd think we'd grown out of that phase 15 years ago, when system memories got bigger and game developers got smarter.

I mean really, I like the game and I've played it almost 3 times through now, and certainly I've gotten more than used to the whole mob spawn system. But getting used to it doesn't mean I'd still like it. That feature sucks, there's no way around it. It's like playing some Final Fantasy when just out of nowhere the screen blurs out, and you find yourself in combat where none of your positioning or preparations really matter. Only in the case of DA2, your positioned as if you were Ambush!:ed every time, haha.

[x-president]

They should have mixed in some differetn enemy tactics instead of the same wave fighting over and over.  At least they could have tossed in some Origin similar fight styles to mix it up a litlle.

[Eudaemonium]

I reckon what they needed most was different enemy types - and I don't just mean visually (though I'd like more different enemies all the same) - but different enemy behaviours. The enemies basically fall into a few set types: commanders who use auras, heavy-hitters like ogres, revenants, etc. assassin-types like... assassins, templar hunters, rage demons, squishy mage-types who do massive damage (arcane horrors). As well as random mooks. They pretty-much needed to have more variety in enemy behaviour, and that would have improved the gameplay immensely. As it is, once you know how a certain enemy-type behaves you can pretty-much rehash the same tactics for it. Nightmare immunities complicate matters, but nto by too much as long as you carry elemental weapons or have (a) versatile mage(s).

[TcheQ]

Eudaemonium wrote...

I reckon what they needed most was different enemy types - and I don't just mean visually (though I'd like more different enemies all the same) - but different enemy behaviours. The enemies basically fall into a few set types: commanders who use auras, heavy-hitters like ogres, revenants, etc. assassin-types like... assassins, templar hunters, rage demons, squishy mage-types who do massive damage (arcane horrors). As well as random mooks. They pretty-much needed to have more variety in enemy behaviour, and that would have improved the gameplay immensely. As it is, once you know how a certain enemy-type behaves you can pretty-much rehash the same tactics for it. Nightmare immunities complicate matters, but nto by too much as long as you carry elemental weapons or have (a) versatile mage(s).

unfortunately it went the way of me2, where they just stopped caring about programming an AI to be original or fun.  Desing it for the lowest common denominator, then just multiply the health and damage for the higher difficulties.  Genius! (cough)

Silly Bioware, hire someone who can actually write AI (like me >.>).  I don't write, i design., and I expect a 40hr week kthxbai

/submit resume

[nicodeemus327]

TcheQ wrote...

Eudaemonium wrote...

I reckon what they needed most was different enemy types - and I don't just mean visually (though I'd like more different enemies all the same) - but different enemy behaviours. The enemies basically fall into a few set types: commanders who use auras, heavy-hitters like ogres, revenants, etc. assassin-types like... assassins, templar hunters, rage demons, squishy mage-types who do massive damage (arcane horrors). As well as random mooks. They pretty-much needed to have more variety in enemy behaviour, and that would have improved the gameplay immensely. As it is, once you know how a certain enemy-type behaves you can pretty-much rehash the same tactics for it. Nightmare immunities complicate matters, but nto by too much as long as you carry elemental weapons or have (a) versatile mage(s).

unfortunately it went the way of me2, where they just stopped caring about programming an AI to be original or fun.  Desing it for the lowest common denominator, then just multiply the health and damage for the higher difficulties.  Genius! (cough)

Silly Bioware, hire someone who can actually write AI (like me >.>).  I don't write, i design., and I expect a 40hr week kthxbai

/submit resume

Are kidding me? Do you even know what's going on in the game? The difference in AI between normal and nightmare is pretty significant.

Melee mobs will turn and punch a secondary melee target. Archers will attack exposed mages and and other ranged. Rogues will steal potions and target secondary non-tank targets with backstab. Mages will target characters that are grouped together. That's only to mention a few.

Edit spelling.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 26 mars 2011 - 04:49 .

[DA Trap Star]

No I don't run away, that's a Mage strategy. A warrior can get in the middle of the action on nightmare if his fortitude is high enough.

I find it more fun being the middle of the action and cross comboing.

[nicodeemus327]

DA Trap Star wrote...

No I don't run away, that's a Mage strategy. A warrior can get in the middle of the action on nightmare if his fortitude is high enough.

I find it more fun being the middle of the action and cross comboing.

Me too. The AI on nightmare can be pretty deadly if you're not careful.

I get my warrior in the enemy's face. I crowd control others, usually archers that attack any exposed mages. I setup class combos to clear out a wave or maybe a tricky rogue.

The run away and corner pull methods are used by players that don't know how to play a tank or setup combos.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 26 mars 2011 - 04:54 .

[TcheQ]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

Eudaemonium wrote...

I reckon what they needed most was different enemy types - and I don't just mean visually (though I'd like more different enemies all the same) - but different enemy behaviours. The enemies basically fall into a few set types: commanders who use auras, heavy-hitters like ogres, revenants, etc. assassin-types like... assassins, templar hunters, rage demons, squishy mage-types who do massive damage (arcane horrors). As well as random mooks. They pretty-much needed to have more variety in enemy behaviour, and that would have improved the gameplay immensely. As it is, once you know how a certain enemy-type behaves you can pretty-much rehash the same tactics for it. Nightmare immunities complicate matters, but nto by too much as long as you carry elemental weapons or have (a) versatile mage(s).

unfortunately it went the way of me2, where they just stopped caring about programming an AI to be original or fun.  Desing it for the lowest common denominator, then just multiply the health and damage for the higher difficulties.  Genius! (cough)

Silly Bioware, hire someone who can actually write AI (like me >.>).  I don't write, i design., and I expect a 40hr week kthxbai

/submit resume

Are kidding me? Do you even know what's going on in the game? The difference in AI between normal and nightmare is pretty significant.

Melee mobs will turn and punch a secondary melee target. Archers will attack exposed mages and and other ranged. Rogues will steal potions and target secondary non-tank targets with backstab. Mages will target characters that are grouped together. That's only to mention a few.

Edit spelling.

I only played nightmare, so I wouldn't know, however it's quite clear they never put much thought into the difficulty, or every battle wouldn't have been so unerringly boring

PS WTF can't *I* pickpocket with my thiefs -.-

Modifié par TcheQ, 26 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[nicodeemus327]

TcheQ wrote...

I only played nightmare, so I wouldn't know, however it's quite clear they never put much thought into the difficulty, or every battle wouldn't have been so unerringly boring

PS WTF can't *I* pickpocket with my thiefs -.-

Apparently there's a lot you don't know. They did put a ton of thought into the difficulty. There's an incredible amount of AI to each battle. Certainly more than ME2. You just seem to be ignorant to it.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 26 mars 2011 - 05:03 .

[TcheQ]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

I only played nightmare, so I wouldn't know, however it's quite clear they never put much thought into the difficulty, or every battle wouldn't have been so unerringly boring

PS WTF can't *I* pickpocket with my thiefs -.-

Apparently there's a lot you don't know. They did put a ton of thought into the difficulty. There's an incredible amount of AI to each battle. Certainly more than ME2. You just seem to be ignorant to it.

lol@u

there are a few extra flags ticked and that's the only difference (not that i care since it's an abomination that should be scorched from the earth now that I'm done with it).  The main reason nightmare is harder is because the enemies have 2khp for a basci mob.  It is never because there is a strategic difference in the way the mob behaves,

there is nothing original in Da2 to be found in nightmare that isn't rehashed from previous titles.  It is dumbed down and the AI present little to no strategy for 95% of the gaem (which most people would consider "the majorty" of the game)

There was one set of four hurlock bolters in the deep roads that never followed. That was the one time I was "impressed" that some effort had been put in to not making the AI completely stupid. The rest of the ai never sticks in groups, never concentrates fire, runs into bottle necks, and never switches weapons to ranged.  And you think that's good programming

[nicodeemus327]

TcheQ wrote...

there are a few extra flags ticked and that's the only difference (not that i care since it's an abomination that should be scorched from the earth now that I'm done with it).  The main reason nightmare is harder is because the enemies have 2khp for a basci mob.  It is never because there is a strategic difference in the way the mob behaves,

there is nothing original in Da2 to be found in nightmare that isn't rehashed from previous titles.  It is dumbed down and the AI present little to no strategy for 95% of the gaem (which most people would consider "the majorty" of the game)

There was one set of four hurlock bolters in the deep roads that never followed. That was the one time I was "impressed" that some effort had been put in to not making the AI completely stupid. The rest of the ai never sticks in groups, never concentrates fire, runs into bottle necks, and never switches weapons to ranged.  And you think that's good programming

And you're full of it. You complained before (first post in this thread) about getting insta-killed by assassins and rage demons. That's because of how differently they behave on nightmare and the advanced AI they use. Their backstab ignores armor, they backstab more often and use it to avoid attacks, they steal potions, they attack secondary targets on the threat list.

You’re not getting killed because they have extra HP. You’re getting killed because they are out smarting you. It's why you resort to the run away strategy.

That's is significantly better than ME2. It's leaps and bounds more than DAO which had a basic threat list at best.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 26 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[TcheQ]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

there are a few extra flags ticked and that's the only difference (not that i care since it's an abomination that should be scorched from the earth now that I'm done with it).  The main reason nightmare is harder is because the enemies have 2khp for a basci mob.  It is never because there is a strategic difference in the way the mob behaves,

there is nothing original in Da2 to be found in nightmare that isn't rehashed from previous titles.  It is dumbed down and the AI present little to no strategy for 95% of the gaem (which most people would consider "the majorty" of the game)

There was one set of four hurlock bolters in the deep roads that never followed. That was the one time I was "impressed" that some effort had been put in to not making the AI completely stupid. The rest of the ai never sticks in groups, never concentrates fire, runs into bottle necks, and never switches weapons to ranged.  And you think that's good programming

And you're full of it. You complained before (first post in this thread) about getting insta-killed by assassins and rage demons. That's because of how differently they behave on nightmare and the advanced AI they use. Their backstab ignores armor, they backstab more often and use it to avoid attacks, they steal potions, they attack secondary targets on the threat list.

You’re not getting killed because they have extra HP. You’re getting killed because they are out smarting you. It's why you resort to the run away strategy.

That's is significantly better than ME2. It's leaps and bounds more than DAO which had a basic threat list at best.

That wasn't a complaint.  That was an observation.

lol@ outsmarting  an enemy is given for no reason 2khp vs my 100 so apparently it's  outsmarting me by having 1900 more....somehow..

Your verbiage has been noted.  Filed under "insignificant, uneducated". Have a nice day.

[nicodeemus327]

TcheQ wrote...

That wasn't a complaint.  That was an observation.

lol@ outsmarting  an enemy is given for no reason 2khp vs my 100 so apparently it's  outsmarting me by having 1900 more....somehow..

Your verbiage has been noted.  Filed under "insignificant, uneducated". Have a nice day.

If the enemy didn't have advanced AI that extra HP would be meaningless. It would take you a few extra seconds to kill it. Nothing more.

I've given you examples of how the AI is more advanced than DAO and ME2. You're ignored them. I'll file you under willfully ignorant.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 26 mars 2011 - 05:52 .

[TcheQ]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

That wasn't a complaint.  That was an observation.

lol@ outsmarting  an enemy is given for no reason 2khp vs my 100 so apparently it's  outsmarting me by having 1900 more....somehow..

Your verbiage has been noted.  Filed under "insignificant, uneducated". Have a nice day.

If the enemy didn't have advanced AI that extra HP would be meaningless. It would take you a few extra seconds to kill it. Nothing more.

I'll file you under willfully ignorant.

You are either a complete retard or fail completely at trolling. 

/unsubscribe

[nicodeemus327]

TcheQ wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

That wasn't a complaint.  That was an observation.

lol@ outsmarting  an enemy is given for no reason 2khp vs my 100 so apparently it's  outsmarting me by having 1900 more....somehow..

Your verbiage has been noted.  Filed under "insignificant, uneducated". Have a nice day.

If the enemy didn't have advanced AI that extra HP would be meaningless. It would take you a few extra seconds to kill it. Nothing more.

I'll file you under willfully ignorant.

You are either a complete retard or fail completely at trolling. 

/unsubscribe

You can't properly articulate your opinions so you resort to personal attacks. Well done.

Please unsubscribe for real this time.

[Logikal1]

Bad game is bad.

I find the fighting is much more fun if you put it on casual and watch TV as you play.

[The Baconer]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

I only played nightmare, so I wouldn't know, however it's quite clear they never put much thought into the difficulty, or every battle wouldn't have been so unerringly boring

PS WTF can't *I* pickpocket with my thiefs -.-

Apparently there's a lot you don't know. They did put a ton of thought into the difficulty. There's an incredible amount of AI to each battle. Certainly more than ME2. You just seem to be ignorant to it.

I understand the point that you're trying to make, but there really isn't an 'incredible' amount of AI going on in DA2. Rogues attacking the squishies has less to do with AI than it does with the game's whacked out threat management. Mages using their aoe powers on groups is merely coincidence, since they don't have a single target attack AFAIK that's all they're going to use. The most 'advanced' AI the mages have is switching to a damaging aura attack when they realise they're getting the crap beat out of them by a melee character.

See, while DA:O wasn't as hard, it certainly had more 'fairness' to it when facing (humanoid) enemies, since for the most part they were working with the same stuff you were. Getting slapped with a Crushing Prison, Hex of Mortality, Mark of Death etc. could be infuriating, but in a good way, in the sense that you could have done the same thing but you were just outplayed. Of course, DA:O's AI had its shortcomings, so most of the time they would just be throwing out their most powerful abilities at whoever had the most threat, but it had a potential that I think Bioware neglected. They could have programmed it to work the same way in DA2, and they could have vastly improved the AI, especially with the addition of CCCs. Imagine an enemy lieutenant staggering your tank to set up a Chain Lightning or Crushing Prison combo. Imagine an enemy mage casting one of the spells that causes the Brittle status effect, followed by an enemy archer taking advantage of that and using Archer's Lance or Bursting Arrow.

Instead, Bioware took the lazy route and gave them devastating or 'cheap' powers, in addition to the Another Wave™ formula to compensate.

[nicodeemus327]

The Baconer wrote...

I understand the point that you're trying to make, but there really isn't an 'incredible' amount of AI going on in DA2. Rogues attacking the squishies has less to do with AI than it does with the game's whacked out threat management. Mages using their aoe powers on groups is merely coincidence, since they don't have a single target attack AFAIK that's all they're going to use. The most 'advanced' AI the mages have is switching to a damaging aura attack when they realise they're getting the crap beat out of them by a melee character.

See, while DA:O wasn't as hard, it certainly had more 'fairness' to it when facing (humanoid) enemies, since for the most part they were working with the same stuff you were. Getting slapped with a Crushing Prison, Hex of Mortality, Mark of Death etc. could be infuriating, but in a good way, in the sense that you could have done the same thing but you were just outplayed. Of course, DA:O's AI had its shortcomings, so most of the time they would just be throwing out their most powerful abilities at whoever had the most threat, but it had a potential that I think Bioware neglected. They could have programmed it to work the same way in DA2, and they could have vastly improved the AI, especially with the addition of CCCs. Imagine an enemy lieutenant staggering your tank to set up a Chain Lightning or Crushing Prison combo. Imagine an enemy mage casting one of the spells that causes the Brittle status effect, followed by an enemy archer taking advantage of that and using Archer's Lance or Bursting Arrow.

Instead, Bioware took the lazy route and gave them devastating or 'cheap' powers, in addition to the Another Wave™ formula to compensate.

There's alot to address so I'll hit the major points.

The AI is certainly more advanced than DAO and even ME2. The enemies do have more health on nightmare but its not the only reason why they are difficult. It's only one of many reasons (which I've listed).

Also, these things you call cheap are miles ahead of what DAO had.

EDIT:

The Baconer wrote...

Imagine an enemy lieutenant staggering your tank to set up a Chain
Lightning or Crushing Prison combo. Imagine an enemy mage casting one of
the spells that causes the Brittle status effect, followed by an enemy
archer taking advantage of that and using Archer's Lance or Bursting
Arrow.

This idea probably wouldn't improve the game at all. Enemies spells were designed to take advantage of the common common mistakes players make. For example, if you ignore your mages enemy archers will target them and interrupt their abilities. If you group up all the time enemy mages will rip you a new one. If you ignore your rogues melee enemies will knock them on their ass. The waves were designed because the player has to be smart about using cooldowns and not just spam their best abilities when the fights starts.

AI Enemies have a different set of limitations than players. The vast majority of RPGS do this. Players and AI are fundamentally different and always will be.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 26 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[The Baconer]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

There's alot to address so I'll hit the major points.

The AI is certainly more advanced than DAO and even ME2. The enemies do have more health on nightmare but its not the only reason why they are difficult. It's only one of many reasons (which I've listed).

I already addressed the points you listed, so I still have no reason to believe they point to DA2's AI being any more advanced.

Also, these things you call cheap are miles ahead of what DAO had.

That was part of my point. They know the AI is still hilariously simplistic so they give them some devastating powers to compensate.

This idea probably wouldn't improve the game at all. Enemies spells were designed to take advantage of the common player weaknesses.

No, they're only designed to be ridiculously damaging (in the case of rogues and mages).

For example, if you ignore your mages enemy archers will target them and interrupt their abilities.

Yes, but that's mostly the Force mechanic doing its thing. The only thing the AI does is decide to attack the mage in the first place, which is hardly advanced. In fact, archers in DA:O would do the same thing, but would use their own abilites to interrupt spellcasting like Scattershot and Pinning Shot instead of relying on a game mechanic specifically designed to frustrate rogues and mages.

If you group up all the time enemy mages will rip you a new one.

Like I said, that doesn't have anything to do with the AI. If enemy mages had single target spells and AOE spells to choose from, then I would agree with you. But as it stands, they only have 1 or two spells to cast and both are AOE. It doesn't see the player's party grouped up and then decide to cast it in turn, it just picks a target and casts it. If the player's party is grouped up, then that's just their fault. So is it working as intended? Yes. But does it imply advanced AI tactics? Not at all.

If you ignore your rogue melee enemies will knock them on their ass.

Again, that has everything to do with the Force mechanic, and nothing to do with the actual AI.

The waves were designed because the player has to me smart about using cooldowns and not just spam their best abilities when the fights starts.

Agreed, but it's also used to needlessly pad out already boring fights. Like all the night-time bandit battles, for example.

Enemies have different limitations hence why enemies and players have a different set of abilites. The vast majority of RPGS do this. Players and enemies abilities are fundamentally different and always will be.

Agreed, but DA:O showed us that AI can (occasionally) have the same abilities and use them with devastating effect. Just look at the tactics-editing tools they give to the player and look at how complex they can make their own party AI. It's a wonder why Bioware didn't spend much time with their own tools and instead took the route that they did with enemy AI.

[Jman5]

No I don't believe this is the best strategy. One factor that should play a big part is speed in clearing attackers. If it takes you 5+ minutes to clear an attack because you run away every time a new wave spawns, you're being innefficient.

Best strategy would be one that allows you to kill the fastest without dying.

Modifié par Jman5, 26 mars 2011 - 08:23 .

[The Baconer]

Jman5 wrote...

No I don't believe this is the best strategy. One factor that should play a big part is speed in clearing attackers. If it takes you 5+ minutes to clear an attack because you run away every time a new wave spawns, you're being innefficient.

Best strategy would be one that allows you to kill the fastest without dying.

Well, kiting enemies into a bottleneck actually makes it easier to put out more damage in less time.

[x-president]

Logikal1 wrote...

Bad game is bad.

I find the fighting is much more fun if you put it on casual and watch TV as you play.

lol


I agree with TcheQ.  The entire game has been dumbed down and streamlined to be simple. 


The only time I saw anything different in attack was at the end section making your way to the final boss there are like 4 archers and an Arcane Horror at the end of a hallway.  Those archers would not move fore anything and the hallway was trapped all the way up.

Other than that, it's waves, waves, and some more waves.

[Sidney]

You people act like you were fighting Napoleon in DAO. The AI is actually better in DA2 - the encounter design is more annoying but that is another issue - and will do more varied things. The DAO AI was brain dead in every fight. Individual opponents, those with special skills, are actually a threat now in a way they never were in DAO. Again, not saying the fights are better, the waves are annoying and the whole of DA* combat isn't a highlight of the game so more of it doesn't much help but the AI is better.