146 réponses à ce sujet

[Wygrath]

 I keep seeing this stuff over and over and it's really gotten under my skin because it's all a subjective illusion brought about by your own differing expectations.

None of which have ever been fulfilled in any game let alone Origins.

I get that Dragon Age 2 is not game of the year quality, but it isn't half as bad as some on the forums here have played it out to be.

You didn't have "your warden" in Origins. If it was, than Hawke is "your champion" in as much as the warden was.
You didn't choose how his story unfolded, you just made choices along the way, just like in Dragon Age 2. 

The dialogue was laid out barebones for you, line for line, 1990's style and as dry as a bone. None of you wrote that dialogue so you didn't choose who the Warden was. You chose from a predetermined list of responses just like in Dragon Age 2. The difference is the wheel, which also had symbols to let you know the tone of the responses you chose.

Was the wheel spot on and perfectly accurate? Not at all. They just gave us paraphrased, short hand versions of the choices, which were not at all misleading. You can't say the same for the Origin's dialogue because every one who played chose a response that they thought would go over one way, but was seemingly taken out of context by the NPCs involved in the conversation.

If you guys really want a tailor made story/adventure/character, the only way you are going to get that is by getting a group of friends together, buying some table top RPG handbooks and manuals, and set about creating your own campaign.

So how about easying up on the me, me, me, mine, my, my stuff when discussing both Origins and DA2.

[Faust1979]

I have to agree I keep saying that sure i love video game RPGs but they aren't true roleplaying and not really close to table top RPGs

[The Brigand]

Wygrath wrote...
You can't say the same for the Origin's dialogue because every one who played chose a response that they thought would go over one way, but was seemingly taken out of context by the NPCs involved in the conversation.

I think this quote best sums up how I feel about this statement:

This troper lives in a heavily-Vietnamese area of Orlando, Florida which
is named "Little Saigon." I once called it "Little Ho Chi Minh City" as
a joke to one of my Vietnamese friends. Never again.
- Somebody on TVTropes

[TJSolo]

I don't PnP.
I don't LARP.
If I wanted to keep buying and playing action adventure games where I just watch a story unfold because I am able to fight my way to the next plot point, I would do that.
I want a cRPG story that is has choices with different consequences on the game world. That is why I got into cRPGs. Specifically that is what ME1 offered and got me hooked.

So I will not stop with the me me me crap because that is what brought me into the genre of cRPGs.

Modifié par TJSolo, 26 mars 2011 - 06:25 .

[Wygrath]

I like table top gaming. I've spent more nights than I care to remember sucking down beers and rolling dice.

I always wanted a really robust online way to play campaigns and stuff, but I'd settle for online Warhammer 40k that plays like the table top version instead of all this RTS resource management crap.

[rma2110]

I love BioWare for the story and characters more than anything else. That is why I am willing to put up with any sacrifices for the sake of a great story. I see it as BioWare's story and I simply take part as a player. So far Varric's tale has me hooked and I can't wait to see what happens next.

[Wygrath]

TJSolo wrote...

I don't PnP.
I don't LARP.
If I wanted to keep buying and playing action adventure games where I just watch a story unfold because I am able to fight my way to the next plot point, I would do that.
I want a cRPG story that is has choices with different consequences on the game world. That is why I got into cRPGs. Specifically that is what ME1 offered and got me hooked.

So I will not stop with the me me me crap because that is what brought me into the genre of cRPGs.

That's exactly what Dragon Age 2 offers to the letter. I would argue that your choices have heavier consequences than the ones you made in Origins.

[BeefoTheBold]

Wygrath wrote...

If you guys really want a tailor made story/adventure/character, the only way you are going to get that is by getting a group of friends together, buying some table top RPG handbooks and manuals, and set about creating your own campaign.

So how about easying up on the me, me, me, mine, my, my stuff when discussing both Origins and DA2.

No, this is incorrect in every possible way IMO.

First off, you CAN have choice in games. Not unlimited choice, no, but certainly far more choice than is presented in DA2. DAO is proof of this concept. The main story arc was what it was: You character rises to become a legendary Gray Warden and save the world from a Blight.

But it is the OTHER pieces that you are given choice on. What reward do you ask for? Do you make yourself King? How do you deal with Morrigan's offer? Who do you support in the Orzamaar? In the Brecilian Forest? In the Landsmeet?

In DAO there are real, meaningful choices that have a major and lasting impact on how the ending unfolds. In DA2 it doesn't matter what you do, you end up a complete failure at the end and you may as well never have played the game at all for all that you managed to influence the course of events.

And lastly, YES, the game IS about ME. It is about MY RISE as Champion of Kirkwall. It is about MY enjoyment. And most importantly, it is about how MY gaming dollar is spent. If I feel that I did not get the value I had hoped for for my investment of time and money then it is absolutely fine to say so.

If others do feel that they got what they wanted, they're also welcome to their own opinion.

[Narreneth]

TJSolo wrote...

I don't PnP.
I don't LARP.
If I wanted to keep buying and playing action adventure games where I just watch a story unfold because I am able to fight my way to the next plot point, I would do that.
I want a cRPG story that is has choices with different consequences on the game world. That is why I got into cRPGs. Specifically that is what ME1 offered and got me hooked.

So I will not stop with the me me me crap because that is what brought me into the genre of cRPGs.

You are completely ignoring the point of the post.  Good job.

[AkiKishi]

Wygrath wrote...

 I keep seeing this stuff over and over and it's really gotten under my skin because it's all a subjective illusion brought about by your own differing expectations.

None of which have ever been fulfilled in any game let alone Origins.

I get that Dragon Age 2 is not game of the year quality, but it isn't half as bad as some on the forums here have played it out to be.

You didn't have "your warden" in Origins. If it was, than Hawke is "your champion" in as much as the warden was.
You didn't choose how his story unfolded, you just made choices along the way, just like in Dragon Age 2. 

The dialogue was laid out barebones for you, line for line, 1990's style and as dry as a bone. None of you wrote that dialogue so you didn't choose who the Warden was. You chose from a predetermined list of responses just like in Dragon Age 2. The difference is the wheel, which also had symbols to let you know the tone of the responses you chose.

Was the wheel spot on and perfectly accurate? Not at all. They just gave us paraphrased, short hand versions of the choices, which were not at all misleading. You can't say the same for the Origin's dialogue because every one who played chose a response that they thought would go over one way, but was seemingly taken out of context by the NPCs involved in the conversation.

If you guys really want a tailor made story/adventure/character, the only way you are going to get that is by getting a group of friends together, buying some table top RPG handbooks and manuals, and set about creating your own campaign.

So how about easying up on the me, me, me, mine, my, my stuff when discussing both Origins and DA2.

Yes you did.  Unless you can tell me who my Warden was that's a false statement. I know you were Hawke, wow that was easy.

Again guess how my DA game ended. I know DA2 ended with Hawke disapearing. But can you tell me which set of circumstances ended my game in DA ? I think not.

Wrong again In DA you had a list of defined responses. In DA2 you have a paraphrase and an icon.

Face it DA2 is no where near the CRPG DA was.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I believe the point has been for many people that the DA 2 main character is less of a customizable character than the main character from Origins, not that it is fully customizable. My own concerns about DA 2 is along these lines, I do not want to play a game with increasingly more narrow options. The key difference between a video game and a movie to me is interactivity. Some players, like myself enjoy a silent warden because we can read the tone and voice in our heads as the dialogue plays out. Having multiple racial options is also a nice customization and can add to the story if the writers take advantage of the player's race selection. classes now are more restrictive for our characters, in weapons, items and how we can play them.

I agree with you that Origins did not have total freedom but it did have several player freedoms DA 2 lacks. This is just my perspective, but the less player freedoms, the less interested I am in the game, especially if that game is part of a series where a previous game had more to it. It's not about "me, me, me" as I do not think Bioware owes me anything. But I do not owe them anything either. Buying a game is an act of free will and I'm not going to give Bioware money as long as their model for the series continues to deteriorate. I will offer up my opinion though, and if it helps convince anyone otherwise, then hooray, I'll buy their next game. If not, I'll go elsewhere if this path is continued. I love free speech.

[dheer]

One reason the warden was much easier to role play and felt like my character was because it wasn't voiced. Hawke felt like playing a customizable npc to me because every time he spoke it took me out of character.

The dialogue wheel felt like chat roulette to me. The icons were a gamble if the choice actually matched something my character would want to say or not. I tried to quicksave before every conversation I could just so I could go back and try for something that was closer to what I wanted to actually say. Again, it broke my immersion in character.

These are just a few examples, and just like yours, are just opinions and are subjective. Just because you feel some way about something doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

Modifié par dheer, 26 mars 2011 - 06:32 .

[AkiKishi]

rma2110 wrote...

I love BioWare for the story and characters more than anything else. That is why I am willing to put up with any sacrifices for the sake of a great story. I see it as BioWare's story and I simply take part as a player. So far Varric's tale has me hooked and I can't wait to see what happens next.

I could deal with that I play JRPGs after all but I won't accept that if they are also trying to tell me that my choices matter. Pick one or the other.

[Medhia Nox]

Bioshock is a great game... but it is not an RPG. It was a wonderfully crafted story... but it is not an RPG. It is brilliantly designed... but it is not an RPG.

DA: 2 is an pitiful RPG that tries to tell a story in the same fashion as a game like Bioshock.

====

Only Neverwinter Nights with its Toolset can give you total freedom... Bioware gave up on that (evidently for this trash).

I'm not looking for total freedom from an RPG like DA: O - but I am looking for the illusion of choice. I don't feel that this game offers even an illusion of choice - I am honestly shocked about anyone who thinks Hawke matters at all.

This game has failed for me on so many levels - and, I'm going through my 5 stages of grief (I'm enjoying anger... so I'm gonna stick with it awhile.)

[Wygrath]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Wygrath wrote...

If you guys really want a tailor made story/adventure/character, the only way you are going to get that is by getting a group of friends together, buying some table top RPG handbooks and manuals, and set about creating your own campaign.

So how about easying up on the me, me, me, mine, my, my stuff when discussing both Origins and DA2.

No, this is incorrect in every possible way IMO.

First off, you CAN have choice in games. Not unlimited choice, no, but certainly far more choice than is presented in DA2. DAO is proof of this concept. The main story arc was what it was: You character rises to become a legendary Gray Warden and save the world from a Blight.

But it is the OTHER pieces that you are given choice on. What reward do you ask for? Do you make yourself King? How do you deal with Morrigan's offer? Who do you support in the Orzamaar? In the Brecilian Forest? In the Landsmeet?

In DAO there are real, meaningful choices that have a major and lasting impact on how the ending unfolds. In DA2 it doesn't matter what you do, you end up a complete failure at the end and you may as well never have played the game at all for all that you managed to influence the course of events.

And lastly, YES, the game IS about ME. It is about MY RISE as Champion of Kirkwall. It is about MY enjoyment. And most importantly, it is about how MY gaming dollar is spent. If I feel that I did not get the value I had hoped for for my investment of time and money then it is absolutely fine to say so.

If others do feel that they got what they wanted, they're also welcome to their own opinion.

I'm not saying you are not entitled to your opinion. I'm just asking for a little bit more perspective. You don't have to get all bent out of shape and huffy. 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or obtuse, but it really isn't about you or your rise to power. You're just along for the ride and you get to make a few decisions on how to get to the end. This was true of Origins as well. I'm sure this is just not something that we are going to see eye to eye on.

Morrigan's offer seems to be the only lasting choice that made any real difference as far as the overall world and narrative are concerned. Everything else is just flavor. 

As far as failing in the end, that's not at all the case. You also have the choice to be "King" or not in Dragon Age 2. The choice in Orzimmar had absolutely no effect on anything in the expansion/DLC or Dragon Age 2 and I don't consider that a significant choice. I'll reiterate that with the Werewolves/Elves. You get a little bone thrown to you in Dragon Age 2 over it, but ultimate nothing significant is changed by that decision, other than the final battle in Origins.

[Narreneth]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Wygrath wrote...

If you guys really want a tailor made story/adventure/character, the only way you are going to get that is by getting a group of friends together, buying some table top RPG handbooks and manuals, and set about creating your own campaign.

So how about easying up on the me, me, me, mine, my, my stuff when discussing both Origins and DA2.

No, this is incorrect in every possible way IMO.

First off, you CAN have choice in games. Not unlimited choice, no, but certainly far more choice than is presented in DA2. DAO is proof of this concept. The main story arc was what it was: You character rises to become a legendary Gray Warden and save the world from a Blight.

But it is the OTHER pieces that you are given choice on. What reward do you ask for? Do you make yourself King? How do you deal with Morrigan's offer? Who do you support in the Orzamaar? In the Brecilian Forest? In the Landsmeet?

In DAO there are real, meaningful choices that have a major and lasting impact on how the ending unfolds. In DA2 it doesn't matter what you do, you end up a complete failure at the end and you may as well never have played the game at all for all that you managed to influence the course of events.

And lastly, YES, the game IS about ME. It is about MY RISE as Champion of Kirkwall. It is about MY enjoyment. And most importantly, it is about how MY gaming dollar is spent. If I feel that I did not get the value I had hoped for for my investment of time and money then it is absolutely fine to say so.

If others do feel that they got what they wanted, they're also welcome to their own opinion.

As the OP stated, that's an illusion of choice.  You're talking about a list of choices that were made for you to pick from.  You didn't get to react to every situation in a unique and individual way.  Harrowmont or Bhelen?  No in between.  Werewolves via slaughtering the Dalish, Dalish via killing Witherfang, or Dalish via convincing Zathrian to kill himself by lifting the curse.  Every major quest point is the same way.  You have two sometimes three options.

The effect your choices have on the world in Origins is minimal.  No real time passes in the game, so aside from characters you kill no longer existing, etc. the results are not something you see.  And no, the text boxes at the end (while I thoroughly enjoyed reading them) do not count for that (and are also very limited... they're not custom-taylored to you).  To be fair, your choices in DA2 don't really feel like they make a huge impact either, even with the passage of time.  So while I enjoyed DA2, please don't think I'm rallying against you on this particular point.  I think most games fall flat on the "your choices affect the world greatly and you see them unfold" thing. 

Let me be clear, I have zero problem with you enjoying DAO more than DA2.  I can certainly see why one would.  But you're kind of ignoring the point of the post.  No matter how much you want to believe DA;O gave you endless options where they didn't exist in DA2, it's not really there.  It's still all a few choices laid out for you to pick from.  Simply deciding *what* your Warden says in situations doesn't change the outcome of the story.  If you hassle Bodahn and Sandal for money when you first encounter them, they still end up in your camp and still like you every bit as much.  There's never any reference to you being "greedy" either from the game or from Bodahn himself.

Okay, I'm rambling now.  Gonna cut this short.

[cotheer]

The Redcliffe quest line alone had more meaningful choices than DA2 from beginning to the end.
And those choices are ME, and the way i play and the way i would probably react/do IRL.

If that doesn't make the Warden MY warden, than i don't know what does.

Modifié par cotheer, 26 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[Gatt9]

The color coded wheel of "I shouldn't have to read to play a game!" isn't an improvement in any way. All it does is facilitate the ability to play the game without actually having to invest any thought into your choices. Want to be good? Pick color A. Want to be flirty? Pick the heart.

The whole thing could've just as easily been replaced with a checkbox at the start of the game for "I want to be (good/smartaleck/bad)" and just watched cutscenes.

To be honest, I find it insulting.

[Tirigon]

Yes, the Warden was mine. Don´t take it away from me.

[Narreneth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Wygrath wrote...

 I keep seeing this stuff over and over and it's really gotten under my skin because it's all a subjective illusion brought about by your own differing expectations.

None of which have ever been fulfilled in any game let alone Origins.

I get that Dragon Age 2 is not game of the year quality, but it isn't half as bad as some on the forums here have played it out to be.

You didn't have "your warden" in Origins. If it was, than Hawke is "your champion" in as much as the warden was.
You didn't choose how his story unfolded, you just made choices along the way, just like in Dragon Age 2. 

The dialogue was laid out barebones for you, line for line, 1990's style and as dry as a bone. None of you wrote that dialogue so you didn't choose who the Warden was. You chose from a predetermined list of responses just like in Dragon Age 2. The difference is the wheel, which also had symbols to let you know the tone of the responses you chose.

Was the wheel spot on and perfectly accurate? Not at all. They just gave us paraphrased, short hand versions of the choices, which were not at all misleading. You can't say the same for the Origin's dialogue because every one who played chose a response that they thought would go over one way, but was seemingly taken out of context by the NPCs involved in the conversation.

If you guys really want a tailor made story/adventure/character, the only way you are going to get that is by getting a group of friends together, buying some table top RPG handbooks and manuals, and set about creating your own campaign.

So how about easying up on the me, me, me, mine, my, my stuff when discussing both Origins and DA2.

Yes you did.  Unless you can tell me who my Warden was that's a false statement. I know you were Hawke, wow that was easy.

Again guess how my DA game ended. I know DA2 ended with Hawke disapearing. But can you tell me which set of circumstances ended my game in DA ? I think not.

Wrong again In DA you had a list of defined responses. In DA2 you have a paraphrase and an icon.

Face it DA2 is no where near the CRPG DA was.

Which Hawke was I?  What happened to the mages I encountered along the way?  No, not just the circle in general, but the individual ones whose lives swung in the balance.  Did Samson get back into the Templars?  You're being a ****** to make a point.  Even if the ending is one of two (yes, two, saying "derp, Hawke disappears I know what happened" completely ignores the fact that you still side with Meredith or Orsini initially) you still have no way of knowing how I personally got there.  Which of my companions were still alive and with me?

And yes I do know how your DAO game ended.  The Blight stopped.  Done.  You see how stupid that looks?  That's exactly what you just did witht he DA2 ending.  You didn't personally like the game, therefore, you're ignoring every other story point but the very final lead-out where Varric lets the Seeker know he doesn't know where Hawke is.

Oh, and for the reference, your Warden disappeared too.  

[Wygrath]

BobSmith101 wrote...



Yes you did.  Unless you can tell me who my Warden was that's a false statement. I know you were Hawke, wow that was easy.

Again guess how my DA game ended. I know DA2 ended with Hawke disapearing. But can you tell me which set of circumstances ended my game in DA ? I think not.

Wrong again In DA you had a list of defined responses. In DA2 you have a paraphrase and an icon.

Face it DA2 is no where near the CRPG DA was.

And the award for most angsty poster goes to... /drumroll

I'm not even touching the "which game was better" argument because it's a subjective thing and is outside of the realm of right and wrong. Is it wrong to like onions because you don't?

What's with all of the angery defensive assaults? I'm not attacking either game. I'm simply trying to point out that there a hell of alot more similarities between Origins and Dragon Age 2 than some of you are willing to admit.

It doesn't matter which game you liked more because that's a totally subjective thing and is therefore pointless to discuss unless you just want to post your thoughts over and over without ever learning anything or altering your views based on anyone else's input.

[Medhia Nox]

@cotheer - yeah, but you STILL had to go to Redcliff... OMG, that's proof of no freedom! I couldn't go to Tevinter! DA: O is just like 2!!

@Gatt9 - we're gonna burn books in celebration of DA: 2 genius. A few of the "hate to read" forum goers are coming - you in brah? We're gonna streamline knowledge by toasting some of the classics.

[BeefoTheBold]

Wygrath wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Wygrath wrote...

If you guys really want a tailor made story/adventure/character, the only way you are going to get that is by getting a group of friends together, buying some table top RPG handbooks and manuals, and set about creating your own campaign.

So how about easying up on the me, me, me, mine, my, my stuff when discussing both Origins and DA2.

No, this is incorrect in every possible way IMO.

First off, you CAN have choice in games. Not unlimited choice, no, but certainly far more choice than is presented in DA2. DAO is proof of this concept. The main story arc was what it was: You character rises to become a legendary Gray Warden and save the world from a Blight.

But it is the OTHER pieces that you are given choice on. What reward do you ask for? Do you make yourself King? How do you deal with Morrigan's offer? Who do you support in the Orzamaar? In the Brecilian Forest? In the Landsmeet?

In DAO there are real, meaningful choices that have a major and lasting impact on how the ending unfolds. In DA2 it doesn't matter what you do, you end up a complete failure at the end and you may as well never have played the game at all for all that you managed to influence the course of events.

And lastly, YES, the game IS about ME. It is about MY RISE as Champion of Kirkwall. It is about MY enjoyment. And most importantly, it is about how MY gaming dollar is spent. If I feel that I did not get the value I had hoped for for my investment of time and money then it is absolutely fine to say so.

If others do feel that they got what they wanted, they're also welcome to their own opinion.

I'm not saying you are not entitled to your opinion. I'm just asking for a little bit more perspective. You don't have to get all bent out of shape and huffy. 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or obtuse, but it really isn't about you or your rise to power. You're just along for the ride and you get to make a few decisions on how to get to the end. This was true of Origins as well. I'm sure this is just not something that we are going to see eye to eye on.

Morrigan's offer seems to be the only lasting choice that made any real difference as far as the overall world and narrative are concerned. Everything else is just flavor. 

As far as failing in the end, that's not at all the case. You also have the choice to be "King" or not in Dragon Age 2. The choice in Orzimmar had absolutely no effect on anything in the expansion/DLC or Dragon Age 2 and I don't consider that a significant choice. I'll reiterate that with the Werewolves/Elves. You get a little bone thrown to you in Dragon Age 2 over it, but ultimate nothing significant is changed by that decision, other than the final battle in Origins.

No, the choices exist and have meaningful consequences in the context of the DAO outcomes. The issue you're talking about are the problems with how the choices you make are handled POST DAO.

As in, so much of what you do that leads to different endings to DAO (very good!) is not built upon in subsequent games like it should have been. Both Awakenings and DA2 were rushed titles that tarnished what was there for DAO. 

This is why people aren't complaining as much about ME2 going further into shooter territory vs. ME1. Because at the very least the RPG elements of choice are being preserved. As an example, how you handled Wrex in ME1 leads to very important consequences in ME2. As does the decision at the end that revolves around the council and Anderson/Udina.

I'm one who liked ME1 better than ME2, but I'm not nearly as upset about the gameplay decisions that they made for ME2 because there is continuity of storyline and consistency in applying your choices from ME1 into real consequences in subsequent games.

This is not the case in the Dragon Age universe. In Dragon Age: Origins it set the stage perfectly for the choices you made in that game having a large scale impact in the next one. But the followthrough was not there and that is a large part of what people like me are complaining about.

Taking this one step further, there is not one, single, significant choice that you make during the entirety of Dragon Age 2. The same people die and the same outcomes take place regardless of what you do or don't do. The world does not at ALL change based on your decisions.

This is quantifiably different than, say, choosing Harrowmont over Bhelan leading dwarves to pursue more isolationist/conservative policies in the end. That is something that absolutely could have been built upon in DA2 if the designers had decided to. Again, choice was there in DAO, it just wasn't followed up on and built upon in DA2.

[TJSolo]

Wygrath wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

I don't PnP.
I don't LARP.
If I wanted to keep buying and playing action adventure games where I just watch a story unfold because I am able to fight my way to the next plot point, I would do that.
I want a cRPG story that is has choices with different consequences on the game world. That is why I got into cRPGs. Specifically that is what ME1 offered and got me hooked.

So I will not stop with the me me me crap because that is what brought me into the genre of cRPGs.

That's exactly what Dragon Age 2 offers to the letter. I would argue that your choices have heavier consequences than the ones you made in Origins.

You could try to argue that but you would fail miserably.

DA2 offers less game altering decisions for the player and has been "evolved" closer to a player watching a story unfold rather than influencing it.
 

[ad1dash0lm3s]

Yes, people don't realize it is still plotted out for you and you don't make all the story choices yourself just the order. Very well put Wygrath.