198 réponses à ce sujet

[Quinnzel]

I'd kick puppies over being mean to Merrill...just sayin.
@XxDeonxX the Fools Gold quest is available if Nathaniel didn't survive DA:A or if a DA:A save wasn't imported at all.

[einherjar81]

XxDeonxX wrote...

wait what quest is this with the 3 brothers? I never got it? does your import effect it or something?

Yeah, apparently you get this quest (Act 2) or the Nathaniel Howe quest (Act 3) if he was recruited in Awakening

[Vhalkyrie]

I don't let friends slit their wrists and do demonic rituals.  Just saying. 

[Medhia Nox]

Worst thing my Hawke ever did was run from the Blight.

[LobselVith8]

Merrill's blood magic never hurt anyone, so I never saw a reason to dissuade her from it. I used blood magic myself as an apostate, so I would have been a hypocrite to call her out for something I did. (I'm surprised she doesn't teach the specialization. Are we supposed to assume Malcolm taught Hawke blood magic and the other specialization he can learn?) As for the Eluvian, it's a part of elven history, and the Dalish are about restoring their ancient lore.

[Avilia]

I gave Isabela to the Arishok....even though I'm not a fan I still had to reload and duel him instead.

[HolyJellyfish]

I helped Feynriel (The Dreamer Mage Boy) deal with all the demons in his dreams, and he had a perfect grasp of his mentality and was ready to move on free and beautiful.

I killed him point blank.

It was great.

[Sarah1281]

That's not the problem. It's her dealings with the demon that ended up nearly getting her possessed and/or freeing a demon and ended up getting her Keeper killed to protect her. Sure, Merrill never asked for Marethari to die to save her and would have been content to die in her place but that doesn't make her dealings with the demon any smarter.

[LobselVith8]

We have no idea how Merrill would have handled Audacity. The problem is that the choice was taken out of her hands, and I don't see how she can be blamed for the actions of the Keeper, who has a responsibility to the entire clan, and instead instilled them with fear of Merrill and kept them in Sundermount for several years when they should have left long ago. Would the demon have been released? Would Merrill have been possessed? It's impossible to say because we have absolutely no knowledge of how she would have handled it, but she clearly planned it out by having Hawke nearby just in case things went wrong.

[Sarah1281]

It's not Merrill's fault that the Keeper chose to become possessed in lieu of Merrill but I think it's safe to say that the Keeper is not an idiot. If she weren't damn sure that if she did not act then Merrill would get possessed (remember how Merrill even tells you she'll probably be possessed?) then she would not have gotten possessed in Merrill's place. Marethari obviously felt that the demon would have been capable of using the eluvian to escape into the real world. Merrill was following the demon's advice on how to restore the eluvian which we know is a portal. If the mirror could be used to free the demon then I think we can be reasonably sure that it would have and Merrill would have no way of knowing the demon wasn't being straight with her.

Merrill's story is SUPPOSED to be a tragic tale of her pushing too far for an admirable goal and someone she cared about dying at her hand in her place. I don't know why so many Merrill fans turn it into 'Merrill knew exactly what she was doing and everything would have gone perfectly if only her idiot keeper could have left well enough alone.'

Merrill isn't supposed to be a perfect character, people. Without Marethari's death being a result of her actions (though we get that Merrill never asked her to do it) then Merrill's only 'imperfection' is being a little naive and getting lost easily which is hardly in the same league as what's wrong with the other party members. Merrill somehow managing to navigate a relationship with a demon that wants freedom perfectly, Merrill managing to be the sole voice of reason among her clan's unnecessary paranoia, Merrill having all the answers on complicated questions like blood magic and the denizens of the spirit world...I'm not sure who this Mary-Sue is but she really annoys me.

[congealeddgtllvr]

^^

As a Merrill fan, I agree with this.  There is nothing more boring than loving a character with no flaws.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 27 mars 2011 - 04:06 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Merrill's story is SUPPOSED to be a tragic tale of her pushing too far for an admirable goal and someone she cared about dying at her hand in her place. I don't know why so many Merrill fans turn it into 'Merrill knew exactly what she was doing and everything would have gone perfectly if only her idiot keeper could have left well enough alone.'

 

This is exactly how I interpreted the events.  It wasn't until I read these boards I was shocked that so many Merrill fans rush to say it's everyone's fault but Merrill's.

How would Merrill have handled Audacity?  The name of demon that was attempting to possess her is self explanatory.  Demons make deals that always favor the demon.

[CLime]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

He does.

"You're breaking up with me?! You used me! I won't forget this!"

Then he storms out.

I actually laughed. XD

i kinda want to see a youtube video of this now....

Found one version of it for you: Rejecting Anders After Sex.

My character's rejection was a lot harsher (was going for the 'hard' responses), but Ander's response is the same.

That is... hilarious.

My first playthrough, Sarcastic Hawke didn't do a whole lot of evil stuff.  He helped Anders' plot to blow up parliament the chantry, and... that was about it.  I suppose letting Gascard DuPuis live wasn't particularly good, but then he ignored him entirely when he went after Quentin.

Second playthrough, Jerk Hawke has done a bit more so far.  Tranquil-izing Feynreil despite helping him beat the demons, refusing to give Merrill the arulin'holm... but the best was killing Javaris.

Hawke: "You and I are done."
Javaris: "Blah blah looting bodies blah blah- " *stabbed in neck, looks surprised, falls over*
Anders: *shakes head*
Hawke: *glare* He bothered me.

[DoNotIngest]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not Merrill's fault that the Keeper chose to become possessed in lieu of Merrill but I think it's safe to say that the Keeper is not an idiot. If she weren't damn sure that if she did not act then Merrill would get possessed (remember how Merrill even tells you she'll probably be possessed?) then she would not have gotten possessed in Merrill's place. Marethari obviously felt that the demon would have been capable of using the eluvian to escape into the real world. Merrill was following the demon's advice on how to restore the eluvian which we know is a portal. If the mirror could be used to free the demon then I think we can be reasonably sure that it would have and Merrill would have no way of knowing the demon wasn't being straight with her.

Merrill's story is SUPPOSED to be a tragic tale of her pushing too far for an admirable goal and someone she cared about dying at her hand in her place. I don't know why so many Merrill fans turn it into 'Merrill knew exactly what she was doing and everything would have gone perfectly if only her idiot keeper could have left well enough alone.'

Merrill isn't supposed to be a perfect character, people. Without Marethari's death being a result of her actions (though we get that Merrill never asked her to do it) then Merrill's only 'imperfection' is being a little naive and getting lost easily which is hardly in the same league as what's wrong with the other party members. Merrill somehow managing to navigate a relationship with a demon that wants freedom perfectly, Merrill managing to be the sole voice of reason among her clan's unnecessary paranoia, Merrill having all the answers on complicated questions like blood magic and the denizens of the spirit world...I'm not sure who this Mary-Sue is but she really annoys me.

As I've never been given a slip of paper titled "Merrill's Clarified Personality, Signed by Bioware Writers", I have to disagree with that middle paragraph. Besides, Hawke killed Audacity easily enough; If, as you say, it just wanted out through the Eluvian, why not? Let it out, slap it around. Same thing happened with Marethari, except she had to get herself killed over it.

To whoever said the worse thing Hawke did was run from the Blight: Ouch. Most of me wants to agree with you.

[Sarah1281]

As I've never been given a slip of paper titled "Merrill's Clarified Personality, Signed by Bioware Writers", I have to disagree with that middle paragraph. Besides, Hawke killed Audacity easily enough; If, as you say, it just wanted out through the Eluvian, why not? Let it out, slap it around. Same thing happened with Marethari, except she had to get herself killed over it.

That first part really wasn't necessary.

Now, what in-game evidence is there to support the conclusion that Merrill knew exactly what she was doing and everything would have worked out amazing for everyone except the demon had Marethari not gotten involved? Merrill's petulant 'they never appreciated me anyway' after the fact?

And if Merrill really was abo****ely right about everything then what, exactly, makes her even remotely like the other members of your extremely dysfunctional party members? What does she have that seperates her from an insufferable know-it-all Sue?

Frankly, it's a wonder that the Marethari some Merrill fans see was allowed to walk around unassisted let alone lead an entire clan.

[LobselVith8]

Given that the Keeper turned the entire clan against Merrill, and it lead to the death of Pol, I'd argue whether she's an idiot or not. She doesn't seem to have any real plan in dissuading Merrill from her goal. Also, I didn't realize addressing that we don't know what would happen was the same as saying she's perfect. I addressed that she had a plan, not that she knew everything beforehand. I will admit that I don't see why a pursuit for knowledge or using blood magic should damn Merrill, but that doesn't mean I think she's perfect.

[DoNotIngest]

There's no reason to say that Merrill didn't have a plan, there's no reason to say she did. Speculation helps with curiousity is all. Sorry, Sarah, if I sounded like an ass with that first bit, no harm intended.

Edit: @Lobselvith8: My thoughts exactly.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 27 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[Sarah1281]

And how do you figure she 'turned the whole clan against Merrill'? All she did was explain to them that Merrill was using blood magic and consorting with a demon. She was just giving them fair warning and Pol was raised Andrastian. Of COURSE he was going to freak out. Would it have been smarter for Marethari to lie to them and have the worst happen and Abomination!Merill goes on a rampage with no one ever suspecting?

I'll agree that if Merethari never explained to Merrill that she was against the eluvian because she feared that the demon would either possess Merill or that the demon would escape then that was a mistake. And 'Hawke dealt with it easily enough because Hawke is the biggest badass in Kirkwall' is not justification enough to willingly unleash a demon. And for all we know, Marethari DID have that talk with Merrill. Merrill seemed fully aware of the possibility she'd get possessed, after all. Maybe she was just overconfident and thought she could handle it and, if not, she had executioners standing by.

Merrill being naive, having a horrible sense of direction, and acting like a rebellious teenager towards Marethari are virtually the only non-eluvian flaws she has. Compare those to the issues that Fenris, Isabela, and Anders have. She might not be technically perfect but compared to that she might as well be and saying that we have no idea if things would have ended badly so the Keeper should not have interfered is really the same as saying things would have been fine so the Keeper should not have interfered. If Merrill was right about the mirror when everyone else thought it was a horrible idea and all that that entrails and was only brought down by her Keeper coming down with a case of raging ****** then not only should it have actually been indicated at any point in the story but it makes Merrill perfect aside from some cutesy foibles.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 mars 2011 - 04:31 .

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given that the Keeper turned the entire clan against Merrill, and it lead to the death of Pol, I'd argue whether she's an idiot or not.

Did the Keeper do that, or was that rather members of the clan seeing Merrill flat out refuse to listen to the Keeper and doing things she's more than once told not to... and deciding for themselves who they want to side with, and who's to be wary of?
 

She doesn't seem to have any real plan in dissuading Merrill from her goal.

There doesn't seem a way to dissuade Merrill -- she plain refuses to listen and sticks to her own beliefs.

[congealeddgtllvr]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is such a cliché. The real moral of the Merrill story seems to be that you are part of a community and so you can't really do whatever you want and have there be no consequences to anybody but yourself. Your actions will always ripple. You can never make a deal with a real smart demon like Audacity because if he can't get to you directly he will use those that love you, and if nobody loves you he'll find another way. He'll always find a way.

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 27 mars 2011 - 04:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Merrill calls the Keeper out on why Pol ran from her, and the Keeper admits it was her doing. Since Merrill dealt with Audacity once, and was leaving the clan for Kirkwall, was there any need to instill fear in the clan about Merrill? The Keeper should have focused on the clan and getting halla so they could leave Sundermount, but she didn't. She waited in the hope that Merrill would change her mind, but what kind of reception would the clan have given her when the Keeper already made them fear her to the point of running into danger rather than be near her?

Why do you think Merrill was overconfident? She told Aveline to watch out for the others, and it seemed like Merrill thought it was a possibility that things would go wrong. As for her sense of direction, she's never been in a city before, it's a completely foreign environment for her. She's out of her element, and she makes a lot of mistakes because she doesn't really understand the culture. The Keeper basically left her in the company of a total stranger, and had it not been for Hawke and Varric, I don't see how Merrill would have even lived.

Merrill and the Keeper had a disagreement about the Eluvian. Why would that make her a rebellious teenager? She's an adult who had a disagreement with another adult.

[Sarah1281]

The Keeper admits that she warned the clan about what Merrill was up to. She didn't make up lies about her or actively tried to turn the clan against her. She just told the clan about the blood magic and the demon. Since the clan wasn't going to be moving on, this was a good move.

I didn't say that Merrill was overconfident. I said that if the Keeper had warned Merrill that the demon was only using her to get into this world one way or another (and there is no reason I can think of why she wouldn't) then Merrill must have ignored this warning. If she ignored it, I think she might have felt that she could handle the demon and a possession wouldn't happen to her. Thus, overconfidence. She did bring the others just in case but I don't think she really felt like she'd need it.

You realize that explaining away her horrible lack of direction even in Act 2 when it's been 3 years only takes away a foible of hers, right?

And it's not the fact that Merrill disagrees with the Keeper that makes her come off as a rebellious teenager. It's the way she conducts the whole feud. It's the whole 'the Keeper doesn't understand me' vibe I get. She feels that because they disagreed that means the Keeper doesn't care about her anymore and that she's being completely unreasonable even though Merrill herself refuses to try to consider the Keeper's point of view. Added to the fact that Merrill said that the Keeper was like a mother to her...it reminded me a lot of a typical rebellious teen. Although, yes, the Keeper and Merrill were both adults. Adults are capable of acting like rebellious teenagers at times and I'm not suggesting she acted like that at all times, just when it came to Marethari.

[LobselVith8]

It's a good move to make people paranoid about someone you want to come back? I disagree.

"Must have"? That's a pretty strong accusation to make with no evidence to back it up, Sarah. We don't even know if the Abomination's claims about using the Eluvian to enter the real world are even true.

The Keeper left her in the company of a stranger to venture into a society she had absolutely no understanding of. I don't see the relationship as a rebellious teen; they had a disagreement over what Merrill was doing. Happens all the time.

I don't understand your criticism about her not adapting soon enough to human culture. Your comment reads like there was a time limit on adapting to a culture you have no understanding of that she didn't meet, Sarah. Did Merrill not adapt to the completely alien culture of humanity soon enough? Given that she lived her entire life without even seeing a city or any human besides Duncan, the Keeper basically let her into harms way, an

[Sjofn]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Being mean to Merrill is hardly as bad as kicking puppies. She's stronger than she looks, she doesn't need you to coddle her. I rivaled her once and intend to never put her on the friendship path again. Sometimes friends push.

Preach it!

[Sarah1281]

It's a good move to make people paranoid about someone you want to come back? I disagree.

It is a good move to make people aware of what Merrill is doing if it all blows up in her face like the Keeper expects.

"Must have"? That's a pretty strong accusation to make with no evidence to back it up, Sarah. We don't even know if the Abomination's claims about using the Eluvian to enter the real world are even true.

It's not really a strong accusation at all. It is the only logical possibility.

IF the Keeper warned Merrill about demon possession or freeing the demon
THEN Merrill must have ignored the warning.

Why is this so? Because Merrill did it anyway. Please note that this does not mean that the Keeper was right. This does not mean that the Keeper warned her. But if Merrill was warned then she must have ignored the warning. That's just a fact. It is, however, subjective whether you think the Keeper warned Merrill or not.

The Keeper left her in the company of a stranger to venture into a society she had absolutely no understanding of. I don't see the relationship as a rebellious teen; they had a disagreement over what Merrill was doing. Happens all the time.

It's not like the Keeper really could have stopped her. And you don't have to see it as the behavior of a rebellious teen. Please note that I'm not saying that they disagreed because Merrill WAS a rebellious teen or that she moved out because of that. I'm not saying she was a rebellious teen. I just heard Merrill complaining about the Keeper and her dialogue with the Keeper and it reminded me strongly of a rebellious teen. There's really no need to keep telling me you disagree. This is highly subjective.

I don't understand your criticism about her not adapting soon enough to human culture. Your comment reads like there was a time limit on adapting to a culture you have no understanding of that she didn't meet, Sarah. Did Merrill not adapt to the completely alien culture of humanity soon enough? Given that she lived her entire life without even seeing a city or any human besides Duncan, the Keeper basically let her into harms way

What criticism? I had earlier stated Merrill getting lost continually was a foible of hers. You explained why you do not feel this is a flaw. I said that if it's not a flaw then Merrill is even closer to perfection without any of what happened with the demon being her fault.

I never said or even believe that there is a time limit to adjusting to a foreign culture or that by the end of the game Merrill should be an expert. I do, however, find it a little...unlikely that Merrill is still regularly getting lost in a city she has spent three consecutive years in. Most people stop getting lost in a new place in a matter of weeks. Even taking into account that she's never been in a city before...three freaking years.