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What's the point of Varric?


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#51
Vhalkyrie

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Saibh wrote...

Still, it makes me raise eyebrows as to why he's in that book. Something ought to happen in that three year gap to explain it, otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense.


Without Fenris, there didn't seem any bad side to supporting mage revolution.  Why wouldn't anyone love freedom and kitten loving revolutionaries?  Well...there is a place where mages rule, it's the Tevinter Imperium, and it led to tearing of the veil, the blight, and demon possessions.

Fenris is there to fill in backstory.  Like Sebastian.  You can skip them both, but you'll miss lots of info.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 27 mars 2011 - 03:01 .


#52
Sarah1281

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Well, the mages themselves put in a lot of time and effort to explain the downside of giving them freedom...

#53
Guest_Brodyaha_*

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Besides being the main storyteller? His getting Hawke into the expedition is what helps Hawke expediate toward success and standing in the Chantry. The lyrium idol is what Meredith gets from Bartrand, who is Varric's brother, who is Hawke's friend.

#54
Saibh

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Vhalkyrie wrote...

Without Fenris, there didn't seem any bad side to supporting mage revolution.  Why wouldn't anyone love freedom and kitten loving revolutionaries?  Well...there is a place where mages rule, it's called the Tevinter Imperium, and it led to tearing of the veil, the blight, and demon possessions.

Fenris is there to fill in backstory.  Like Sebastian.  You can skip them both, but you'll miss lots of info.


That's not my point.

Why is he in that book? Even if you don't recruit him, he shows up at the epilogue and in all the party summoning stations...you know, I just might make a topic about this.

He's of no plot relevance. Unlike Anders and Isabela, he doesn't affect the plot even when he's not in your party. Merrill's inclusion is sketchy, at best, but at least she has to be in your party.

In any case, yeah, I was capable of seeing both sides. Fenris fleshes the templar side out the same way Sebastian fleshes out the Chantry side--with neither being necessary but both adding more depth.

#55
Addai

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silver-crescent wrote...

He doesn't have ANY plot relevance save for being Bartrand's brother, his personaly quests are all about Bartrand too, and worst of all he has absolutely no character development, is a smooth talking smartass in year 1, stays exactly the same during the whole decade.

And to top it off he kinda fails at comedic relief, I for one thought Isabella was 50x times funnier.

It was very disappointing I thought. All the other companions are so well developped and all of them evolve through the years, but Varric never really gets anywhere.

You sort of screw your whole argument in the first sentence, don't you?  He's your hook into the Deep Roads expedition, which sets up a lot of stuff in the game, not just in act 1 but act 3 as well.  Beyond that, he provides a lot of the tips that give you side quests, and he allows the whole framed narrative to even be possible.

He's also an anchor of sanity and wit in a freaking insane city, and since he's a sexy beast dangled in front of our Hawkes like candy before a five year old, he's there to keep you humble.  No, Hawke can't boff everyone in the party.  Some are just not that into her.  :crying:

Modifié par Addai67, 27 mars 2011 - 02:38 .


#56
Lord_Valandil

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Saibh wrote...
Why is he in that book?


I understand your point.
But I don't think everything has an answer. Maybe he is in the book just "because...", since he isn't relevant to the plot...at all.

#57
Vhalkyrie

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Saibh wrote...
That's not my point.

Why is he in that book? Even if you don't recruit him, he shows up at the epilogue and in all the party summoning stations...you know, I just might make a topic about this.

He's of no plot relevance. Unlike Anders and Isabela, he doesn't affect the plot even when he's not in your party. Merrill's inclusion is sketchy, at best, but at least she has to be in your party.

In any case, yeah, I was capable of seeing both sides. Fenris fleshes the templar side out the same way Sebastian fleshes out the Chantry side--with neither being necessary but both adding more depth.


He was Hawke's friend.  In some cases, he might have been his/her lover.  While not strictly necessary to the plot, someone's good friend or love interest is significant to the life of a person.  Varric might even say it isn't a good story without a sexy romance.

Personally, I think Fenris is necessary on a utility basis.  I got crunched on my first playthrough when I skipped him - was a lot harder than it should have been.  Second playthrough was much, much easier after speccing him to be a massive DPS warrior.  If you didn't have Carver, there would have been no one else to fit that role.  So, definitely has a spot in my book.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 27 mars 2011 - 02:52 .


#58
triviumisgodly

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Varric really doesn't have a point other than being the storyteller and the primary comic relief. But thats not a bad thing as all characters don't need to be directly involved in the main plot to be classified as a "filler" character.The characters who are not directly tied to the story are Merrill, Fenris, and Varric, but they could easily play a more important role in future DA games. DA2 could just be an introduction to certain characters in the overall DA story, and other titles could flesh them out and make them have more of an impact. Plus I have a feeling that Varric will be in DA3.

#59
upsettingshorts

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What's the point of this thread?

#60
Patriciachr34

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See the Varric thread.  That says it all.:)

#61
Medhia Nox

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On a serious note: If you notice in the beginning, Cassandra asks Varric if Flemeth sent someone with "The Champion" and he says, "In a fashion..." ((I paraphrase, I forget the exact words)).

I think Flemeth sent him to orchestrate the events of Dragon Age 2.

====

On a more poignant note - Varric's chest hair kept my Hawke warm at night.

#62
Vhalkyrie

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If we're asking why characters were necessary, why was Merrill necessary to the plot? My Hawke (and Warden) are very anti-blood mage. From DAO to Awakenings to DA2, I never failed to execute a blood mage. Except Merrill. Being forced to take a blood mage, show her around the city, and supposed to take her under my wing was very OOC.

#63
Maria Caliban

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Vhalkyrie wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Why is he in that book? Even if you don't recruit him, he shows up at the epilogue and in all the party summoning stations...you know, I just might make a topic about this.

He was Hawke's friend.  In some cases, he might have been his/her lover.

It's possible that you're misunderstanding Saibh's comment.

Cassandra has a book with the face of the six non-sibling companions. Fenris' face is there. Fenris *does not* have to be Hawke's friend or lover. It's possible to never meet him.

We're asking why Cassandra cares about Fenris. What relevance does he have to her?

Because we've been told that it's not a book of Hawke's companions, but a book of people who were involved in the events of the story. Cassandra being interested in the Guard-Captain makes sense. Cassandra learning about Isabela's involvement in the qunari problems makes sense. Varric always goes down to the Deep Roads. Anders always blows up the Chantry.

Merrill and Fenris? Why would Cassandra care about them in a play through where Fenris was never recruited? What does Merrill do that's of note to a Seeker of the Chantry investigating Kirkwall?

Vhalkyrie wrote...

... why was Merrill necessary to the plot?

She's not. We've talked about this on the Merrill thread and other threads discussing the importance of Cassandra's book.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 27 mars 2011 - 03:45 .


#64
Vhalkyrie

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Why is he in that book? Even if you don't recruit him, he shows up at the epilogue and in all the party summoning stations...you know, I just might make a topic about this.

He was Hawke's friend.  In some cases, he might have been his/her lover.

It's possible that you're misunderstanding Saibh's comment.

Cassandra has a book with the face of the six non-sibling companions. Fenris' face is there. Fenris *does not* have to be Hawke's friend or lover. It's possible to never meet him.

We're asking why Cassandra cares about Fenris. What relevance does he have to her?

Because we've been told that it's not a book of Hawke's companions, but a book of people who were involved in the events of the story. Cassandra being interested in the Guard-Captain makes sense. Cassandra learning about Isabela's involvement in the qunari problems makes sense. Varric always goes down to the Deep Roads. Anders always blows up the Chantry.

Merrill and Fenris? Why would Cassandra care about them in a play through where Fenris was never recruited? What does Merrill do that's of note to a Seeker of the Chantry investigating Kirkwall?


No, I understood.  In my earlier comment I explained my first playthrough did not have Fenris.  I accidentally skipped him.

Why Fenris and Merrill?  Maybe just a setup for the next installment.  Maybe Merrill's events that caused the Keeper to die leaves the Dalish clan for disaster (certainly does if Hawke slaughters them).  Maybe killing Danarius sets up a power struggle in the Tevinter Imperium.  Danarius was a very powerful magister who could afford a lyrium etched warrior, which Fenris says is very rare, expensive, and valuable.  Whether you recruit Fenris or not, presumably Fenris would eventually kill him.  Though if he was never recruited, Varric wouldn't know anything of him personally, but in tavern talk.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 27 mars 2011 - 04:08 .


#65
Sarah1281

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Maria Caliban wrote...
Merrill and Fenris? Why would Cassandra care about them in a play through where Fenris was never recruited? What does Merrill do that's of note to a Seeker of the Chantry investigating Kirkwall?

Cassandra is trying to be politically correct? Image IPB

#66
Aeducan Himself

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Medhia Nox wrote...

On a serious note: If you notice in the beginning, Cassandra asks Varric if Flemeth sent someone with "The Champion" and he says, "In a fashion..." ((I paraphrase, I forget the exact words)).

I think Flemeth sent him to orchestrate the events of Dragon Age 2.


He's saying that Flemeth sent herself along with Hawke.

#67
Saibh

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Vhalkyrie wrote...

No, I understood.  In my earlier comment I explained my first playthrough did not have Fenris.  I accidentally skipped him.

Why Fenris and Merrill?  Maybe just a setup for the next installment.  Maybe Merrill's events that caused the Keeper to die leaves the Dalish clan for disaster (certainly does if Hawke slaughters them).  Maybe killing Danarius sets up a power struggle in the Tevinter Imperium.  Danarius was a very powerful magister who could afford a lyrium etched warrior, which Fenris says is very rare, expensive, and valuable.  Whether you recruit Fenris or not, presumably Fenris would eventually kill him.  Though if he was never recruited, Varric wouldn't know anything of him personally, but in tavern talk.


It would have to occur within the three year gap, then. Merrill I sort of understand, because she is an associate of Hawke's, and anything Hawke did she has a suspicious amount of involvement in. Not only that, but if you consider those snapshots of Flemeth and Morrigan to be actually in the book, Merrill's involvement with Flemeth's ritual may make her important.

Fenris, however...Fenris seems to be completely irrelevant. I can't think of a single reason for him to be in it, unless he does something spectacular in years 7-10.

#68
Medhia Nox

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@Aeducan Himself - certainly possible, just not the impression I got.

Flemeth couldn't have gone with Hawke however - as she had "an appointment" and had she made the trip with Hawke - she certainly wouldn't need to come back in an amulet.

#69
Sarah1281

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Even Danarius' death can't be at all relevant no matter who he is back in Tevinter. Unless Fenris later snaps and kills him if you send him back into slavery, I guess.

#70
Bonus Pretzel

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I found Varric to be a rather likable and interesting character. Nearly every surface dwarf seems to lament not being in Orzammar, but Varric prefers the surface, and has a rather cynical view of dwarven traditions. His character may not be haunted by past trauma like some of the other characters, but at the same time that allows him to keep a cool head in situations. His talent for storytelling is not only useful in creating the frame story, as you can see when you use his companion action to rescue Feynriel from the head slaver by convincing them that the boy is the viscount's love child. What I liked most about his character was that he tended to play sort of a big brother role to the other companions. If you listen to some of his side dialogue, he uses his connections to keep thugs away from Anders' clinic, or to ensure Merrill doesn't run into trouble when she travels the alleys alone at night. He won't admit it, but he is a rogue (both in literal class and character) with a heart of gold, and I for one loved him for it. Not to mention how can you not grin at a guy who names his weapon "Bianca", the most kickass crossbow I've ever seen.

#71
Vhalkyrie

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Even Danarius' death can't be at all relevant no matter who he is back in Tevinter. Unless Fenris later snaps and kills him if you send him back into slavery, I guess.


Fenris believes his life is forfeit.  He says he won't let Danarius take his lyrium back, implying he's going to get his investment back and Fenris is no longer a reliable slave.  In another conversation with Hawke, he tells her Danarius doesn't want him back, he wants his lyrium.

If Hawke hands him back to Danarius, I would believe he would make another attempt at killing Danarius, as it would be his only chance to live.

So in any circumstance, Fenris is going to kill Danarius.

Hawke recruits Fenris and helps him kill Danarius.
Hawke does not recruit Fenris, but Fenris will eventually kill Danarius.
Hawke hands Fenris back to Danarius, and Fenris will make another attempt to save his life.


Fenris, however...Fenris seems to be completely irrelevant. I can't
think of a single reason for him to be in it, unless he does something
spectacular in years 7-10.


Yes, I agree. In order for Fenris to be relevant to the events of DA2, Danarius' death will have to be significant, or Fenris does something significant later.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 27 mars 2011 - 03:08 .


#72
Hannibal218

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Plot wise, well none of act 1 would have happened without Varric. It instead would have ended with Hawke being stuck in Lowtown until either he or Bethany was thrown in the circle; there would be no lyrium idol, and Hawke may never have met Anders. Not to mention that Hawke would probably never have stopped the Qunari or become Champion. So plot wise Varric is very important. In the later acts he becomes less important to the plot as he's setteled in as the head of house Tethras and is occupied with running the family business rather than exploring. As for his personal quests being about Bartrand... wouldn't it be your "personal quest" to get back at you jerk of a brother for leaving you stranded in the deep roads, effectively condemning you to death either by dehydration or darkspawn? I think it's completely logical for his A2 quest to be about Bartrand, in fact, I expected it.

Personality wise Varric is Hawke's foil and silly-Hawke's straight man, sometimes. He also seems to be the only sane man in Kirkwall. Furthermore the aforementioned lack of depth in Varric's personality is something that, in my opinion, Varric's character tries to project. He's hiding frustration, fear, sadness, whatever behind a comedic facade.

Modifié par Hannibal218, 27 mars 2011 - 03:21 .


#73
Asdara

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Lord_Valandil wrote...

I like Varric as a character, he's funny.
But I don't think he's necessary as a narrator, as there isn't much interaction between him and Cassandra, apart from "Oh dwarf, you're not telling me everything, TELL ME MOAR, MOAR".
I don't really see the so-called "depth" of the story (if any), and no...I won't start to say non-senses like "Fire David Gaider", and I won't bash the writers...but the story was a mess for me...

Act 1 is way too long, and it's based mostly on collecting money from random quests.
Act 2 feels like a climax, and also...I don't understand why the Qunari spent 3+ years just sitting on their asses without doing anything.
And Act 3 is an enterily different conflict, and while there are some glimpses of it between the acts 1 and 2, it just feels disconnected and anti-climatic.

That's just my opinion.


The flow of the story makes sense though, despite the flaws you point out.  In Act 1 you are just out of a year of being an indentured servant; you need to establish some income and start some type of life plan, because Uncle dearest is ready to throw you guys if you don't start contributing and your mother is too old to survive squatting in Darktown.  Making money takes time, or you wouldn't see all the beggars and refugees turing to crime all over the city streets.  So, it does make sense that you're in a long fetch quest to the tune of an expensive but possibly very profitable expedition - which you're only invited to because Varric sees some potential in you that his brother's too stubborn to look for.

Act 2 brings up the Qunari issue exactly because it has been three years and the Arishock has had time to become completely disgusted with the way Kirkwall is run and can't stand another insult from the groups that have been harassing his people.  Of course, if they'd just said they were looking for something this might all have been avoided, because I'm sure the city officials would have scoured the earth for that relic if it meant offloading the Qunari.  As it is, he's not the type to share that vital information.  Thus, conflict eventually arises - spurred largely by small acts committed over a long period of time by Chantry zealots.  I don't think the Qunari are just sitting around in the passing years either - scouts are sent, maps are made, plans for wiping the city out of need be are drawn up, important people identified, etc.  They don't incite a war casually by going from door to door interrogating people, but they aren't there to start a war.

Act 3 does seem disconnected, because the Qunari got the spotlight for the bulk of Act 2 and the only real indication of increasing Mage and Templar tensions are being created by renegades like Anders and that soft-hearted Templar whose daughter turned abomination.  Nevertheless, the Viscount is always mentioning the tension that exists without the Qunari already in Acts 1 and 2 so what we aren't seeing directly, we're at least made aware of in passing.  The personal quests become more of a focus and what Hawke does individually beyond his or her becoming a figure of high importance in the city.  Before becoming so prominent, why would Hawke be consulted by the Knight Commander or the First Enchanter, or even the Grand Cleric if we didn't work with her so closely through the Sebastian situations?  The major political troubles of the city aren't the purview of successful adventurers until they establish some civic position.  Again, not earth-shatteringly brilliant, but it makes sense and follows a logical progression of time and achievement.