310 réponses à ce sujet

[ObserverStatus]

Personally, I never quite bought the idea that Dragon Age 2 characters are only gay when Hawke is. The whole idea seems to me like saying that GLaDOS is only a murderer on playthroughs where Chell falls into the fire, while on playthroughs where she survives GLaDOS is actually a nice gal and really was going to bring her to the party and give her the cake.  Bioware should just call it what it is and admit that all the characters are bi.

Modifié par bobobo878, 28 mars 2011 - 03:05 .

[Dasha Dreyson]

Ushakal wrote...

Dasha Dreyson wrote...

Juhani in Kotor was a romance option. So no, it's not been heterosexual only in older games.

Well, it was a joke to poke fun at people complaining about "neglecting" heteroseuxals, but if you want to be like that perhaps we should criticise Bioware for neglecting homosexual men until 2009, when Dragon Age: Origins came out (6 years after KOTOR?). About 14 years of only catering to heterosexuals and lesbians, for shame.

Of course, I'm not the kind of person who would criticise Bioware for a lack of diversity in their games. I'm actually sick of hearing people criticise Bioware for this kind of thing, because it has always been at the forefront of representing under-represented minorities.

I hadn't played a Bioware game between Kotor and Dragon Age. I was annoyed that Kotor 2 had been farmed out and didn't play any Bioware games for awhile. So yeah, my experience has that 6 year gap.

[sheppard7]

Tripedius wrote...

Hasn't this been discussed enough? General consensus:
- people who have problems with the bi-content are small minded and should accept it or stop playing
- people who think it is fine as it is
- people who think there needs to be more exclusive gay content are overdoing it. It's fine as it is, no need for more different romances, as it would probably take more devellopment time than it's worth and cause female players to complain that they can't romance 'that guy'.

It is fine as it is, you can have a same sex romance or a heterosex romance, even if it is with the same people, but you have to judge it on one single playthrough. If in one your male and Anders is gay that's fine, but don't complain he's straight when your a woman, cause the argument 'he wasn't like that before' is false. He can be only one thing in one playthrough. If you want to talk about multiple playthroughs you have to accept multiple dimensions (with the same world in it) and it's fine that he's different in different dimensions.

As for the Anders hitting on you argument, I haven't seen any female players who complain about that. Maybe the're used to guys hitting on them .

The difference with Anders is he even said all he wants is a pretty girl in Awakening along with a few other dialogue pieces he had in Awakening. It's the character change without reason I have an issue with. Now for all the rest, no problem whatsoever. I would have zero issue if they just made a new character instead because other than the name that's what they did.

[Vhalkyrie]

Arppis wrote...
When did this happen? There was option to be just nice at Isabella and still be friends with her. For Anders there wasn't, there was 2 <3 -options and one X -option. That's why no one is complaining. You can't be a nice guy at Anders and tell him you are not interested. You have to be a douchebag. That's the main complaint about it.

For everyone else in the game, you can be nice and be friends with them.

So a guy you just want to be friends with makes a pass at you, and you can't let him down without hurting his feelings.

Now you know what it's like to be a girl. 

[Beamobaby]

Ushakal

This:
"Yeah, I don't think many transgendered people want to be thought of as a "third gender"; the point is that they want to be seen as the gender they feel/think they are. They can simply play the game as the gender they choose to be, there doesn't really need to be any backstory to that."

I totally get that. Good point!

[SexBomb]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

So I'm sure by now, we've all heard the news about David Gaider calling out that homophobe on this very social network, yes?  If not, you can read about it at the following links:

Just because someone disagrees with homosexuality is it nessicary to deem such person a homophobe? 

Just going by what everybody else seems to be referring to him as.  Obviously as a member of the LGBT community, I'm going to take "disagreement" a little harder than some other people.

[Beamobaby]

I've stated before that I feel the Anders come-on was too strong and that it was the only point that bothered me.

Just as a referrence for maybe why I took it a little worse than others:

I spent five years living in Japan. Got back last summer. In the more popular dance clubs and bars in larger cities over there they have English signs right on the front door warning foreign men to not be overly aggressive in hitting on the ladies. Plenty of leeway was given to people to make their moves, but its not like I never saw someone who couldn't take no for an answer get asked to leave.

Maybe experiences like that make me feel its ok to ask the developers to reduce the aggressiveness of the LIs. I wasn't insulted by gross ****** gayosity (sarcasm!). I just felt it should have been done a lot better. Maybe it reflects real life, but should those obnoxious dudes in Fukuoka clubs not have been asked to leave?

Modifié par Beamobaby, 29 mars 2011 - 12:42 .

[sansaserif]

Wow. Okay. I can't believe this has turned into such a big issue since the Straight Male Gamer rant. Successful troll is successful. But I feel like I should say my bit on this...

Before I step on any toes, I am pro-LGBT. (Trust me, I'm a liberal and a writer, it's hard not to be.) But I thought there was something odd about the way sexuality was implemented in this game.

Look, let's put it this way. In Dragon Age: Origins, sex seemed to be balanced. Alistair and Morrigan were straight as boards, Leliana was bi, and I'm pretty sure Zevran was every sexuality known to man. It was well planned and made the characters feel more fleshed out by their distinct preferences.

DA2 lacks that aspect. As far as I can tell, every party member (excluding Varric and your sibling du chois) seems to be bi. I know why the writers did it: not every girl, guy or gay has the same type, so they erred on the safe side and made everybody "available".

I suppose that's a benefit, after a fashion. It just fells like it muddles everything together and takes away distinction when everybody magically becomes attracted to whatever gender Hawke damn well pleases.
Obviously, this isn't a big deal. Veeeerrrrrryy minor. Frankly, when my femHawke was hit on by Isabella, I giggled.
Anyway, that's my bit. Now I'm gonna shut up, move on and play some goddamn DA2. I suggest y'all do the same.

Modifié par llamasrock218, 29 mars 2011 - 01:12 .

[sansaserif]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Arppis wrote...
When did this happen? There was option to be just nice at Isabella and still be friends with her. For Anders there wasn't, there was 2 <3 -options and one X -option. That's why no one is complaining. You can't be a nice guy at Anders and tell him you are not interested. You have to be a douchebag. That's the main complaint about it.

For everyone else in the game, you can be nice and be friends with them.

So a guy you just want to be friends with makes a pass at you, and you can't let him down without hurting his feelings.

Now you know what it's like to be a girl. 

This. So much of this, it makes my head asplode. It's exactly the problem with the Anders stuff. Thank you.

[hoorayforicecream]

Beamobaby wrote...

I've stated before that I feel the Anders come-on was too strong and that it was the only point that bothered me.

Just as a referrence for maybe why I took it a little worse than others:

I spent five years living in Japan. Got back last summer. In the more popular dance clubs and bars in larger cities over there they have English signs right on the front door warning foreign men to not be overly aggressive in hitting on the ladies. Plenty of leeway was given to people to make their moves, but its not like I never saw someone who couldn't take no for an answer get asked to leave.

Maybe experiences like that make me feel its ok to ask the developers to reduce the aggressiveness of the LIs. I wasn't insulted by gross ****** gayosity (sarcasm!). I just felt it should have been done a lot better. Maybe it reflects real life, but should those obnoxious dudes in Fukuoka clubs not have been asked to leave?

It's not really a quality of "the love interests". It's a quality of Anders. None of the other LIs will hint or push at all. You have to make the first move by clicking a heart. Anders is the only one who doesn't, yet I've seen lots of people complain about ALL of the love interests because Anders traps you in to a heart, heart or heartbreak decision.

It really comes from a combination of two things:

#1. Anders does it really early when you first meet him and recruit him. This can freak people out, especially because you just met him.
#2. People are hardwired to think FRIENDSHIP GOOD RIVALRY BAD when they come into this game, because of how approval worked in DA:O (and pretty much any other game that has an approval system). Turning down Anders and getting +5 rivalry makes people feel trapped, because they think of rivalry as a bad thing. They don't realize how easy it is to get him to 100% friendship even with a +5 rivalry hit.

It's really not as bad as people make it out to be. Take the +5 rivalry, turn him down, and he'll never mention it again. You can still be all buddy buddy with him. But I guess it is true... unrequited sexual attraction can make people uncomfortable, and having it come from a guy when the player is most likely a straight male lands will probably fall outside of their comfort zone.

[Beamobaby]

Some people just want their opinion heard and come back to talk more when they are disregarded yet feel like they have legitimate reasons (whether hateful or not).

Others are quick to say "just deal with it!" and then possibly add a few overdramatic comments.

There are definitely some people on the board who have been respectful tho.

[Spetulhu]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Beamobaby wrote...

I've stated before that I feel the Anders come-on was too strong and that it was the only point that bothered me.

It's not really a quality of "the love interests". It's a quality of Anders. But I guess it is true... unrequited sexual attraction can make people uncomfortable, and having it come from a guy when the player is most likely a straight male lands will probably fall outside of their comfort zone.

It will certainly also fall far outside the few men that have hit on this particular straight male. None made any drama at being rejected (granted I also didn't make any drama about being hit on) and then we had a beer and talked about manly stuff. Only ones that ever made drama was drunk women - excuse me, I just don't see the attraction in someone who can barely walk. All I want to do to you is make sure you get home safely so please don't try to kiss me.

[GhostRed]

llamasrock218 wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Arppis wrote...
When did this happen? There was option to be just nice at Isabella and still be friends with her. For Anders there wasn't, there was 2 <3 -options and one X -option. That's why no one is complaining. You can't be a nice guy at Anders and tell him you are not interested. You have to be a douchebag. That's the main complaint about it.

For everyone else in the game, you can be nice and be friends with them.

So a guy you just want to be friends with makes a pass at you, and you can't let him down without hurting his feelings.

Now you know what it's like to be a girl. 

This. So much of this, it makes my head asplode. It's exactly the problem with the Anders stuff. Thank you.

Seriously, this.  I was kind of annoyed that I either had the option to suddenly be gay or be a jerk.  There was no simple Paragon option.

So it was like, "I love you" or "I hate you".  There was no "hey, no offense dude, I don't swing that way".

I haven't reached the point where I have the option to kill him, but this first conversation with him was pretty much enough to make me decide that I'd like the chance to.

Also, there's no "let's just be friends, and not one with benefits" option.  I'd like that one, please.  That's cool if you're gay, Anders, just not with me, homeslice.

[Beamobaby]

Wow, I'm at the Anders point on my second run-through with a snarky FemHawke rogue. Saved right before to experiment with it.

I will now completely take back my former 'punishment for being straight' comment. Guess its one of those things you have to see for yourself. (Or I was just too stubborn/homophobic)

I will now say after going through that conversation several times that it is just one big batch of bad writing. Anders starts off with "Sorry I was too weighty back there." Then your very first dialogue choice is the one that decides whether you want to stay neutral or take a friendship hit in either direction.

If you chose the heartbreak option on the very FIRST dialogue choice, Hawke responds with "Keep your business to yourself" basically. You then leave amicably somehow.

After choosing a different option for the first you can then either 1) romance him for friendship, 2) ****** him off for rivalry, 3) or turn him down for rivalry.

If you romance him, he denies you and pushes you away despite still gaining friendship.


A lack of an easier let down for him IS pretty strange. "I don't want you to think of me that way anymore" is the only option other than "Keep your business to yourself" for turning him down. And other than those two conversation directions you can either romance him or ****** him off about mages.

You can argue Anders was incredibly emotionally unstable at the time but that doesn't mean Hawke couldn't say something other than those options.


Oh well. I can only hope others figure this out like I have and people I've been arguing with will forgive me. I was being a stubborn douche.

[khevan]

Yanno, the more I think about it, the more I'm agreeing with the viewpoint that Anders having his feelings hurt by rejection (the Rivalry points) makes sense. The thing the bothered me the most, however, was the fact that if you picked certain conversation options in the conversation in question, you don't have the option to be nice about rejecting him.

Even if rejecting him nicely gave more rivalry points (not sure why it would, but just hypothetically speaking), I wouldn't have a problem with it, because it makes sense for him to get upset over the rejection. I just wish there was a way to let him down "easy" without Hawke saying something to the effect of "I don't want you thinking about me that way EVAR AGAIN!!!" *murderous glare*

Just my opinion, YMMV.

[TobiTobsen]

GhostRed wrote...

llamasrock218 wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Arppis wrote...
When did this happen? There was option to be just nice at Isabella and still be friends with her. For Anders there wasn't, there was 2 <3 -options and one X -option. That's why no one is complaining. You can't be a nice guy at Anders and tell him you are not interested. You have to be a douchebag. That's the main complaint about it.

For everyone else in the game, you can be nice and be friends with them.

So a guy you just want to be friends with makes a pass at you, and you can't let him down without hurting his feelings.

Now you know what it's like to be a girl. 

This. So much of this, it makes my head asplode. It's exactly the problem with the Anders stuff. Thank you.

Seriously, this.  I was kind of annoyed that I either had the option to suddenly be gay or be a jerk.  There was no simple Paragon option.

So it was like, "I love you" or "I hate you".  There was no "hey, no offense dude, I don't swing that way".

I haven't reached the point where I have the option to kill him, but this first conversation with him was pretty much enough to make me decide that I'd like the chance to.

Also, there's no "let's just be friends, and not one with benefits" option.  I'd like that one, please.  That's cool if you're gay, Anders, just not with me, homeslice.

/sign

But hey... the face that Hawke makes in the broken heart answer is pure comedy gold. I feared his eyes would pop out of his skull.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 29 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[Kartikeya]

sheppard7 wrote...

Tripedius wrote...

Hasn't this been discussed enough? General consensus:
- people who have problems with the bi-content are small minded and should accept it or stop playing
- people who think it is fine as it is
- people who think there needs to be more exclusive gay content are overdoing it. It's fine as it is, no need for more different romances, as it would probably take more devellopment time than it's worth and cause female players to complain that they can't romance 'that guy'.

It is fine as it is, you can have a same sex romance or a heterosex romance, even if it is with the same people, but you have to judge it on one single playthrough. If in one your male and Anders is gay that's fine, but don't complain he's straight when your a woman, cause the argument 'he wasn't like that before' is false. He can be only one thing in one playthrough. If you want to talk about multiple playthroughs you have to accept multiple dimensions (with the same world in it) and it's fine that he's different in different dimensions.

As for the Anders hitting on you argument, I haven't seen any female players who complain about that. Maybe the're used to guys hitting on them .

The difference with Anders is he even said all he wants is a pretty girl in Awakening along with a few other dialogue pieces he had in Awakening. It's the character change without reason I have an issue with. Now for all the rest, no problem whatsoever. I would have zero issue if they just made a new character instead because other than the name that's what they did.

Bisexuality means you're attracted to both genders. You can be bisexual and have a preference for one gender over the other. If you take his conversations from Awakening at face value, he would seem to prefer women (or he thinks that's a more acceptable thing to be seen as). Besides, you know, he was kind've, oh, deflecting with humor in that conversation. It's something Anders does a whole lot in Awakening (and Alistair did in Origins). He's not having a straight and serious discussion about his sexual preferences. Why would you use humor to deflect further questions or seriousness and include something that will beg further discussion?

[RazorrX]

Meh. I think they did it because it was easier to do as well as they knew that no matter what there would be mods to make them swing either way anyway. I shot Anders down from the start, but then I also jumped his case that becoming an abomination was a stupid thing to do, he should have known better, etc. SO I got renegade/rival/snarky points (have to cover my options ME/DA/AP) with him from the start.

I had a bug or did not look at the icons well enough with Fenris so that he actually hit on me 2 times. Both times I shot him down and got the - points. But I did not mind being snarky to him, as by the time I found out the truth behind the lyrium tatoos I wanted to curb stomp him every time he ****ed about magic.

[seebs]

Captain Cornhole wrote...
Just because someone disagrees with homosexuality is it nessicary to deem such person a homophobe?

Necessary?  No.  Logically justified?  Yes.

Oh, you want an explanation?  Okay, let's start from the beginning.

What do you mean "disagrees with"?  If we try to interpret that literally, it's totally semantically incoherent.  You can't "disagree with homosexuality" any more than you can "disagree with weather" or "disagree with biology".  It's just there.  Homosexuality doesn't have opinions.  Homosexuality isn't an opinion.  Homosexuality is a thing.  Disagreeing with it isn't meaningful.

"Disagree with <x>" is an idiom, though.  It doesn't actually mean "disagree with", it means "disapprove of".  And once you take something that is a thing people identify with as an essential part of who they are, and you disapprove of it, well...  Doesn't matter whether it's homosexuality, or skin color, or whatever else.  You're into the territory most people regard as bigotry.

And here's the thing.  You can disapprove of whatever you want.  Heck, I disapprove of killing people.  And I play RPGs sometimes.  And the thing is, even if we make allowances for the genre (it's morally justified to kill people as long as someone has offered you money to do so)... There are characters in RPGs who do things that, even in character, I disapprove of.  Heck, there was a thing where some stupid guy got killed early in the first Dragon Age where I felt that the behavior depicted was, if not exactly evil, certainly outside what I'd normally tolerate or be comfortable with.  I wasn't totally happy with the fact that I didn't get a choice as to whether or not my character put up with it.  (Not that the other branch of the story would have gone more than about five minutes.)

But I don't feel the need to start threads on forums about how non-murderous players are not being considered, even though the majority of Bioware's customers probably never killed anybody.

And that's why we're referring to that guy as a homophobe; because he's not just personally uninterested in something, he's objecting to it being out there in the world where other people might see it.  People who aren't him and don't necessarily share his views.  When he moves from having a personal preference to telling developers that they should exclude other preferences, then yes, he's being a homophobe.  He's taking the privilege of being the default case for granted.

Storytellers face a real problem.  In the real world, some people are gay.  Not very many, though.  What that means is that, if you make a character gay in a story, it stands out, simply because it's statistically unusual.  So... If you never make any gay characters, gay players feel sort of like their existence is being denied or ignored.  And if you make gay characters, then either their gayness is a part of the story, and significant, or you're doing something which is unusual but not significant, which is usually bad storytelling.  You can't fix this.  There is no way to not have one of those three problems; either the story is about the gayness, or the reader will expect it to be because of narrative justification, or you've excluded gayness and related issues from your world.

Bioware's choice is at least as good as the others, and honestly I think it makes for better storytelling in an RPG.  In an RPG, the flexibility of letting players decide their orientation is important.  It lets most players act the way they feel comfortable, without thinking about it or having to pay attention to it.  The side effect is that, especially if you play through multiple times on different genders, you realize that there's a statistically abnormal concentration of bisexual characters who happen to be in the habit of following the player character around.  This is a very small price to play for a good story experience that allows just about everyone to play the character they want.

But yes... People who "disagree with" homosexuality are, in general, homophobes.  I've met people who had sincere beliefs that gay sex was immoral, but who were not homophobes.  None of them would ever have used the "disagree with" euphemism.

[Fluffykeith]

I read posts like the one above and wish all forum posts where like that. Well thought put, polite, detailed in their explanation. Respect.

[seebs]

Heh, I actually bought the game just to post that. I mean, yeah, I plan to play it eventually, but I was off busily playing RIFT and was planning to wait for it to get cheap. But someone in my guild linked to this drama, and I really, really, liked Bioware's response to it. Then I saw the "disagree with" thing which is a pet peeve, and the "can't post in this forum" thing.

... Yeah, I have poor impulse control.

[Fredrikus]

I must say that it is both amusing and tragic when some individuals from the majority are upset when minorities gain the same freedom of choice, it reminds me of some kids that would rather destroy a toy than let anyone else play with it.

What Bioware has done in DA2 is expanding the opportunities and choices for all players, it's as simple as that. But for some strange reason, some "Straight Male Gamers" feel hurt when gays and bisexuals are given the same wide array of romance options. This reminds me of the political issue of civil unions and gay marriage, where some people seems to mean that gay marriage in some mysterious way would reduce the value of straight marriages. Indeed a very narrow-minded and self-centered view. How can you claim the right of freedom of choice for yourself while you want to deny it for others? I must also say that I find it morally and philosophically alarming that
in a game full of extreme violence, the thing provoking some people is the presence of same sex love. Isn't something very twisted in a society that censor sex in movies and television while allowing torture, pillage and murder?

<Bastal wrote: "It makes things very awkward when your male companions keep making passes at you.">

As a straight male I do understand this feeling, but nevertheless we must accept that it may happen in both role plaing games as well as in the real world. Personally, I remember from upper secondary school how a mate made a very obvious pass at me at a party. I turned him down gently and explained that I wasn't into men and then continued with my life. To be honest, I felt more flattered than awkward and I had absolutely no problem going on with our friendship. One awkward and somewhat unsettling effect though, was that my girlfrend was totally turned on by the idea of me with another man. Well, to each her own :-).
My point is that in the 21st century, even the most butch straight males must get used to the possibility of another man flirting or making passes, and react in a mature and civil way, instead of using violence or worse. In this sense, Bioware has made an important contribute in providing desensitization for homophobes, hopefully reducing future occurence of gay bashings.

In the end, Bastal and other die hard Straight Males must accept that even the conservative and retrospective genre of fantasy adapts to the development of the contemporary real world, which is shown by examples such as the books about Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch, where gay or bisexual activities are common. If some people can't accept that minorities are included in games, the answer is simple: don't buy them!

[rvgifford]

Fredrikus wrote...

In the end, Bastal and other die hard Straight Males must accept that even the conservative and retrospective genre of fantasy adapts to the development of the contemporary real world, which is shown by examples such as the books about Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch, where gay or bisexual activities are common. If some people can't accept that minorities are included in games, the answer is simple: don't buy them!

I'm straight. I have gay friends. They've made passes at me. Whatev. Let 'em down easy and move on. Sexuality should not determine friendships or straight men should not have straight women as friends. Actually, maybe they shouldn't.

I always seem to be the moderate or devil's advocate and for it I end up being lumped with one side or another but here goes anyway . . . not counting your brother/sister and varric as not romanceable there are six party members including current DLC. Three of them are gay or bi-sexual. That's half of the characters. While I applaud the idea of all inclusiveness that's borderline exclusive in defense of the 'die hard straight males'. Some of them are overreacting, becoming uncomfortable at the simplest of things, but there we are.

I think it's high time society accepts and embraces the idea that heterosexuality is not the only way to live. I also enjoy seeing it included in DA:O and DA2, but there is such a thing as going overboard and I haven't yet decided if DA2 has done  just that. Include everyone, but keep it in persepective, please. I don't want DA3's characters to ALL be bi-sexual in the attempt to include 'everyone'.

Uncomfortable straight people . . . embrace a little tolerance. Bitter, downtrodden individuals of a sexual minority . . . expect the world to accept you by accounting for you in games like this, but please don't become exactly what Gaider spoke out against in the concept of expectation of priveledge. Finally, to all, try to keep it from getting too hot in here if you disagree with me. I'm ready to take it from both sides (excuse the innuendoish pun), but let's keep the flames to a minimum. Open discussion of these sort of topics, when kept civil, are healthy towards long-term acceptance. Thank you to those who read the entire post before responding. Oh, and as one of my fave characters on scrubs once said, "In your endo."

Modifié par rvgifford, 30 mars 2011 - 02:41 .