310 réponses à ce sujet

[PlumPaul93]

Kryz wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

But thats it why does every romance option need to be bi, it might not diminish the character but it diminishes the romances,

How so?  It makes a romance less romance-y because both a man and a woman can do it? I don't see that one at all.

I humbly request an explanation.

I'd say yes for one it IS unrealistic, the fact that the romance could happen with the opposite gender does make it less "special". I humbly request an explanation as to why there shouldn't be specific straight romances and/or specific gay romances.

[Lithuasil]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

I'd say yes for one it IS unrealistic, the fact that the romance could happen with the opposite gender does make it less "special". I humbly request an explanation as to why there shouldn't be specific straight romances and/or specific gay romances.

We already argued the unrealistic part further up. Aside from that - specific romances are bad, because they limit choice. If, say, Merill was straight - that would leave homosexual women only with a wench that pretty much everyone in Kirkwall has already been in. Or what if Anders where straight, but a homosexual male happens to be a mage, and therefore doesn't want to bed Fenris?
You don't loose anything by telling Anders to shove off once, but someone else gains something from it

[Custodire]

There's a Codex Entry in DA:O that sex bisexuality is a lot more common in Thedas, and considered a personality "quirk". While it may seem a bit less believable to the original poster, please bear in mind that this is fantasy Earth- it's an entirely alien world, and that's just how they do it there.

Personally, I thank the developers for making these small changes that challenge our understanding of what is normal, and make us feel a little out of place. I feel these changes provide a window into a world that has evolved along a different path than ours and am grateful for the opportunity.

For those that feel threatened by the shift, I must point out that the culture in Thedas, especially Ferelden is essentially Western middle ages in all other respects, so for 99% of the time you're well inside your comfort or "believability" zone.

Edit (addition): I hope the people arguing for believability or realism in this topic are at least being honest enough to themselves to have admited to themselves that their notions of belivability and realism are based on what is normal for a Earth Human paradigm, and not a Thedas Human.

Modifié par Custodire, 27 mars 2011 - 12:47 .

[Kryz]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Kryz wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

But thats it why does every romance option need to be bi, it might not diminish the character but it diminishes the romances,

How so?  It makes a romance less romance-y because both a man and a woman can do it? I don't see that one at all.

I humbly request an explanation.

I'd say yes for one it IS unrealistic, the fact that the romance could happen with the opposite gender does make it less "special". I humbly request an explanation as to why there shouldn't be specific straight romances and/or specific gay romances.

First of all, I wasn't being sarcatic (for once). I honestly didn't get WTH you were talking about. Can't say the same for *this* post, but I thought I'd put it out there.

So you're saying that any man I date will feel less 'special' because I date women too? That the relationship with him would be less 'special'? Is that seriously what you mean? Feel free to clarify for me, cause sounds like a personal problem, IMO. <_<

My explanation was fairly obvious - not everyone is going to like the choice they're given for their sexuality if you split it up that way. Video games are about escapism, and people should be able to 'escape' with whoever they want.

I might have liked Leliana as well as Morrigan, but there were quite a few people unhappy with Leliana/Zevran. And no Morrigan/Alistair for them? Well, thanks to DA2, that problem's been remedied.

Unless they like none of 'em of course, but still. 

[PlumPaul93]

Kryz wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Kryz wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

But thats it why does every romance option need to be bi, it might not diminish the character but it diminishes the romances,

How so?  It makes a romance less romance-y because both a man and a woman can do it? I don't see that one at all.

I humbly request an explanation.

I'd say yes for one it IS unrealistic, the fact that the romance could happen with the opposite gender does make it less "special". I humbly request an explanation as to why there shouldn't be specific straight romances and/or specific gay romances.

First of all, I wasn't being sarcatic (for once). I honestly didn't get WTH you were talking about. Can't say the same for *this* post, but I thought I'd put it out there.

So you're saying that any man I date will feel less 'special' because I date women too? That the relationship with him would be less 'special'? Is that seriously what you mean? Feel free to clarify for me, cause sounds like a personal problem, IMO. <_<

My explanation was fairly obvious - not everyone is going to like the choice they're given for their sexuality if you split it up that way. Video games are about escapism, and people should be able to 'escape' with whoever they want.

I might have liked Leliana as well as Morrigan, but there were quite a few people unhappy with Leliana/Zevran. And no Morrigan/Alistair for them? Well, thanks to DA2, that problem's been remedied.

Unless they like none of 'em of course, but still. 

thats just my opinion although I do find it humorous that rewritting characters (anders) and forcing them to do something that was previously out of character for them is right, and just because people wanted to romance allistair/morrigan it would be ok to change them as well. What I mean by special is that the male/female romances gay or straight are the same if I'm correct that is where its not special.

[Dangerfoot]

Much respect to Gaider for that response. It was both polite and soul crushing, all at once. I think they definitely did the right thing, not from a standpoint of "giving something to a minority", but from the standpoint of making the LI more customizable. Forcing players to choose their gender so that they get their choice of LI is restrictive and thus, not as fun.

[Ryleh]

See, the problem is that people are always going to complain about the LIs, no matter which options are, or aren't, available. We've seen everything from "I can't romance Aveline, why not?" to "It's unrealistic that you can romance so many of the companions and it makes their personalities less defined."

Personally, I don't care much about the specifics of how they handle the romances, as long as romances continue to be part of the game; they are an aspect that I find enjoyable. But the fact that they have been so inclusive of gay/bi options, and so unequivocal about defending the choice to be such, means that this bi girl is going to be buying the **** out of their games for a really, really long time.

[skunkdoctor]

I'm a happily married, straight male gamer who signed up here just to respond to all this, although the original threads linked are probably locked.

I want to start off by saying that the OP of the thread that started all this certainly doesn't speak for me, although the OP of this thread might be offered some coin if I ever need someone to. I find the not-so-veiled homophobia abbhorent, although that isn't my point. My point is that it is the height of stupidity to assume that because YOU, personally, are bothered by men making passes at you, all other straight male gamers are as well. In the end, the complaint that got destroyed by David was not about appealing to the majority of the fanbase, it was about appealing to him. Forget the homophobia, the entire premise is flawed.

Personally, I am on my first playthrough and first chance I got I nailed Isabella, because she's easy like that, and now I am in a sexytime relationship with Anders while lying to him about Isabella. I intend to have sex with whatever I can, although I think I just hooked Aveline up with someone else. Anyway, I'm not a player I just "crush" a lot. -Big Pun

Modifié par skunkdoctor, 27 mars 2011 - 01:09 .

[Kryz]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

thats just my opinion although I do find it humorous that rewritting characters (anders) and forcing them to do something that was previously out of character for them is right, and just because people wanted to romance allistair/morrigan it would be ok to change them as well. What I mean by special is that the male/female romances gay or straight are the same if I'm correct that is where its not special.

One thing to remember, in defense of the change with Anders, is they changed a *lot* of stuff, minor to major, dealing with the lore of the world and stuff. Isabella was changed a bit too, her spech patterns paticularly. Some people like the changes, some people don't.

As for romances being the same with males and females, I guess I just don't see gender as such a big deal. Might just be my bi side or something, but I don't need the LI's to treat me any different just because I've got boobies. Guess it's just a matter of preference.
At any rate, thanks for clarifying. Still don't agree with you, but still nice to know what you meant. 

[PlumPaul93]

Kryz wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

thats just my opinion although I do find it humorous that rewritting characters (anders) and forcing them to do something that was previously out of character for them is right, and just because people wanted to romance allistair/morrigan it would be ok to change them as well. What I mean by special is that the male/female romances gay or straight are the same if I'm correct that is where its not special.

One thing to remember, in defense of the change with Anders, is they changed a *lot* of stuff, minor to major, dealing with the lore of the world and stuff. Isabella was changed a bit too, her spech patterns paticularly. Some people like the changes, some people don't.

As for romances being the same with males and females, I guess I just don't see gender as such a big deal. Might just be my bi side or something, but I don't need the LI's to treat me any different just because I've got boobies. Guess it's just a matter of preference.
At any rate, thanks for clarifying. Still don't agree with you, but still nice to know what you meant. 

Well these are silly issues to talk about really, but my main problem isn't the fact that gay romances are in the game/anders stuff, it's the fact that the romances to me have very poor writing JMO.

[Beamobaby]

Was it me, or did all the Hawesexuals in the game remind you of that old Japanese anime called Tenchi Muyo? How everyone in their right mind wants your Hawke's bones?

[PlumPaul93]

Beamobaby wrote...

Was it me, or did all the Hawesexuals in the game remind you of that old Japanese anime called Tenchi Muyo? How everyone in their right mind wants your Hawke's bones?

haha yeah thats one of the reasons the romances were silly to me.

[Zan Mura]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Well now, I admit I have no tolerance for gays, thank god for freedom of speech and thought. What I would say here, is that they should not have shafted anyone. 4 LI? Ok, make 2 gay/bi, and 2 straight. Everybody is happy. With all that in mind, I must admit that mentioned Anders is indeed perceived as a straight male when Hawke is female.

Well not everyone, obviously. Because as pointed out, this would cause a situation where people would have samesex toons with straight companions they would like to romance, but couldn't because that companion was straight.

The Angry One wrote...

Well hey, you know what? If they "shafted" people who have no tolerance, I'm glad.

"Too much tolerance equals ignorance", a good wise doctor friend of mine once said. Couldn't agree more. While I hate zealous bigot control freaks just as much as the next person, the opposite extreme of "tolerating" positively everything and everyone is equally bad. ALL people have opinions, if you never have a say to anything then all you are is an indifferent sheep who has yet to develop into a mature, strong-willed human being with goals. Granted, no-one can really tell where the lines are, separating this ignorance from sufficiently tolerant. But I believe that in modern world it's too easy to be tolerant, it's never the wrong choice, and you will always have the support of the media and public opinion.

Kinda like speaking for same-sex romances or for immigrants in Europe. Anyone coming up against you there will with 100% certainty be crushed before they even have the chance to reason and explain their views. After all, the mere act of disagreeing with those immediately gives that person the image of a conservative, zealous and uncivilized homophobe or a skinhead whose only argument against immigration can only be something along the lines of "they come and take our jobs and women". And who would refuse to use those proverbial Hitler cards, when they can automatically win any and all debates with it?

Because of that, I must automatically give more respect for the words of those who do NOT accept everything, and to NOT agree with the public opinion. I myself find homosexuality repulsive in the sexual sense. But I also have the brains to understand that it's quite ok, I don't NEED to like it in order to accept it. And as a result, I have gay friends who love to joke about my "phobias". I don't like it, and I'm honest about how I feel, but I would never condemn them as people simply because their sex life isn't to my liking. It's none of my business after all.

tl;dr; I've no need for gay romances myself, aside from lesbian of course. Us straight males are weak that way, and no this is nothing as teenaged and dirty as some might believe, I simply think lesbian romances are cute and tender in a way. And I admit that making everyone bi is a bit weird and has a slightly negative impact on the believability of the companions as a whole. But making everyone bi is far preferable to cutting anyone - homosexuals included -, out of content. I've always loved the romances in BW games because they make the stories more believable. Few things add personality as much as a romance, because it always gives that certain kind of weakness and humanity to a character. I would *never* wish for any group of people to be cut out of it. So overall, positives and negatives together, the whole "all-bi" feature of DA2 definitely ends up on the positive side in the end.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 27 mars 2011 - 01:51 .

[PlumPaul93]

Zan Mura wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Well now, I admit I have no tolerance for gays, thank god for freedom of speech and thought. What I would say here, is that they should not have shafted anyone. 4 LI? Ok, make 2 gay/bi, and 2 straight. Everybody is happy. With all that in mind, I must admit that mentioned Anders is indeed perceived as a straight male when Hawke is female.

Well not everyone, obviously. Because as pointed out, this would cause a situation where people would have samesex toons with straight companions they would like to romance, but couldn't because that companion was straight.

The Angry One wrote...

Well hey, you know what? If they "shafted" people who have no tolerance, I'm glad.

"Too much tolerance equals ignorance", a good wise doctor friend of mine once said. Couldn't agree more. While I hate zealous bigot control freaks just as much as the next person, the opposite extreme of "tolerating" positively everything and everyone is equally bad. ALL people have opinions, if you never have a say to anything then all you are is an indifferent sheep who has yet to develop into a mature, strong-willed human being with goals. Granted, no-one can really tell where the lines are, separating this ignorance from sufficiently tolerant. But I believe that in modern world it's too easy to be tolerant, it's never the wrong choice, and you will always have the support of the media.

Thus I must automatically give more respect for the words of those who do not accept everything. I myself find homosexuality repulsive in the sexual sense. But I also have the brains to understand that it's quite ok, I don't NEED to like it in order to accept it. And as a result, I have gay friends who love to joke about my "phobias". I don't like it, and I'm honest about how I feel, but I would never condemn them as people simply because their sex life isn't to my liking. It's none of my business after all.

tl;dr; I've no need for gay romances myself, aside from lesbian of course. Us straight males are weak that way, and no this is nothing as teenaged and dirty as some might believe, I simply think lesbian romances are cute and tender in a way. And I admit that making everyone bi is a bit weird and has a slightly negative impact on the believability of the companions as a whole. But making everyone bi is far preferable to cutting anyone - homosexuals included -, out of content. I've always loved the romances in BW games because they make the stories more believable. Few things add personality as much as a romance, because it always gives that certain kind of weakness and humanity to a character. I would *never* wish for any group of people to be cut out of it. So overall, positives and negatives together, the whole "all-bi" feature of DA2 definitely ends up on the positive side in the end.

well done although the all bi thing is a problem to me, other than that basically my thoughts.

[Suron]

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

In regards to Anders' sexuality:

I haven't been 100% clear on this... I've only played a male Hawke. I'm simply going off the information other people have provided me with, along with forum posts, the DA wiki, and other outside sources. I thought he was bi in my playthrough, as well. If his sexuality does in fact shift, however, I find it awkward.

Regardless, this was hardly the main point my post was trying to make. It was more simply about orientation variation, and my qualms about having all romancable characters be romancable for all genders. Of course it has it's perks--oh, what I would have done, if I could romance Alistair--but it also has it's drawbacks.

The Angry One wrote...

Or Hawke has sex rays generating from her/his pants.

I like this theory.

it was Gaider or Priestly (but I'm 99% sure it was Gaider..not searching it out though) that point blank said Anders sexuality is NOT tied to Hawkes sex...So if you're a female Hawke..Anders sexuality is the exact same as if you were male and he STILL had a relationship with that male mage...he just doesn't bring it up.

so yah..it's fact...no chacter in DA's sexuality is tied to Hawkes..they just may not bring it up...that doesn't mean a magically changed sexuality or background.

[skunkdoctor]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Beamobaby wrote...

Was it me, or did all the Hawesexuals in the game remind you of that old Japanese anime called Tenchi Muyo? How everyone in their right mind wants your Hawke's bones?

haha yeah thats one of the reasons the romances were silly to me.

4out of 4 people are stupid when it comes to romance, and in a developing relationship what you do is more important than looks. Bioware got it right.

[Suron]

now as far as the topic goes. I don't care about bi gay or straight choices but I don't think EVERYONE should be BiSexual..because, as you even said yourself, it's not realistic.

if it makes sense for the character's backstory and history..fine..whatever.

but making EVERYONE bisexual just for the sake of it is dumb. But as you said for that..at least they should have had some flirting options that were rejected..y'know like how Hawke or the Warden could reject Anders or Zevran respectively.

What bothers me about Anders isn't that he's Bi but in how he acts. I have several gay friends and have been around them (or was hit on by them when we first met) when they've made a pass at a straight dude...and they didn't act like pricks when rejected. Anders does. Even if Rivalry isn't a "punishment" (as Gaider puts it) it still is tacky and frankly insulting. It's like whoever wrote his romance thinks all gays only want to be friends if you'll be a pole squater...and if you don't they get angry.

otherwise it's whatever. But again I think making everyone bisexual just to do so is stupid. They could have focused more on the truly bi/gay/straight characters and made the romances so much more..

Modifié par Suron, 27 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Trophonius]

Suron wrote...

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

In regards to Anders' sexuality:

I haven't been 100% clear on this... I've only played a male Hawke. I'm simply going off the information other people have provided me with, along with forum posts, the DA wiki, and other outside sources. I thought he was bi in my playthrough, as well. If his sexuality does in fact shift, however, I find it awkward.

Regardless, this was hardly the main point my post was trying to make. It was more simply about orientation variation, and my qualms about having all romancable characters be romancable for all genders. Of course it has it's perks--oh, what I would have done, if I could romance Alistair--but it also has it's drawbacks.

The Angry One wrote...

Or Hawke has sex rays generating from her/his pants.

I like this theory.

it was Gaider or Priestly (but I'm 99% sure it was Gaider..not searching it out though) that point blank said Anders sexuality is NOT tied to Hawkes sex...So if you're a female Hawke..Anders sexuality is the exact same as if you were male and he STILL had a relationship with that male mage...he just doesn't bring it up.

so yah..it's fact...no chacter in DA's sexuality is tied to Hawkes..they just may not bring it up...that doesn't mean a magically changed sexuality or background.

That's true. Hence why I think Fenris and Merrill are subjective while Isabela and Anders are legitimately bisexual. Anders' failure to mention or introduction of Karl as his former lover to a female Hawke doesn't make him straight. Their relationship is an aspect of his identity and exists whether you're romancing him as male or female Hawke.

[Lorelily]

Just to put another spin on this: the entire game could been seen as just a story being told by Varric to Cassandra. While major plot points probably are accurate, I certainly don't remember either of my Hawkes (one male, one female) inviting Varric into the bedroom when they were sleeping with their chosen partner, so he could preserve every moment for posterity. Varric has to go on what he saw, what was told to him by the parties involved and speculation/gossip. You could use this to account for all the changes in the characters from DA:O & Awakening and from what/how it gets mentioned/shown in the gameplay.

Who knows, maybe Varric is misrepresenting everyone's sexuality to tweak Cassandra and the Chantry's collective noses?

[M8DMAN]

While I do applaud bioware for making all the LI's bi. I still don't like what they did with Anders.

Anders dialog points in Awakening pretty much paint's him as Hetrosexual.

[Zan Mura]

Lorelily wrote...

Just to put another spin on this: the entire game could been seen as just a story being told by Varric to Cassandra. While major plot points probably are accurate, I certainly don't remember either of my Hawkes (one male, one female) inviting Varric into the bedroom when they were sleeping with their chosen partner, so he could preserve every moment for posterity. Varric has to go on what he saw, what was told to him by the parties involved and speculation/gossip. You could use this to account for all the changes in the characters from DA:O & Awakening and from what/how it gets mentioned/shown in the gameplay.

Who knows, maybe Varric is misrepresenting everyone's sexuality to tweak Cassandra and the Chantry's collective noses?

Doesn't work. The end result of this would be about the same as saying that what if DA2 was just a dream. Any solution that basically takes no stance at all, instead saying everything is cool because nothing is certain, is pointless. It doesn't answer to any questions, it doesn't add any new information, it's just a pointless theory that nobody can prove or disprove, and doesn't really affect anything at all. No offense of course.

I'm just gonna go with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor]Occam's razor[/url] on this one. Aside from a few obvious examples, the DA2 story is exactly as we experience it. Without any cop-outs because "oh it was just Varric's opinion, doesn't mean that's what really happened".

[Dangerfoot]

Suron wrote...

it was Gaider or Priestly (but I'm 99% sure it was Gaider..not searching it out though) that point blank said Anders sexuality is NOT tied to Hawkes sex...So if you're a female Hawke..Anders sexuality is the exact same as if you were male and he STILL had a relationship with that male mage...he just doesn't bring it up.

so yah..it's fact...no chacter in DA's sexuality is tied to Hawkes..they just may not bring it up...that doesn't mean a magically changed sexuality or background.

Well if they don't bring it up in your playthrough, then you can (with very little effort) just RP that they are straight. Who cares if someone says that the character fooled around with a guy once outside of the game? If it doesn't happen in-game, in my current playthrough, then why be plagued with thoughts of Anders giving men naked hugs?

[3SG Sage]

Hmmm.. well the only reason I was slightly annoyed with the flexible interests of my LIs was that the "bromance" of two guys (or girls) facing death together and being closely emotionally linked without there being an actual romance involved. It seems like if you try to BFF anyone, then they want to be your lover. Oddly I got the sense that my male rogue's closest friend was the guard captain. She married her subordinate but in the end when push came to shove she backed me in siding with the mages even though she was against the mages in general. Varric was my drinking buddy ... but you always get the feeling that he's sticking around mainly just to see what kind of new sh*t you stir up this time.

[Masako52]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Kryz wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

But thats it why does every romance option need to be bi, it might not diminish the character but it diminishes the romances,

How so?  It makes a romance less romance-y because both a man and a woman can do it? I don't see that one at all.

I humbly request an explanation.

I'd say yes for one it IS unrealistic, the fact that the romance could happen with the opposite gender does make it less "special". I humbly request an explanation as to why there shouldn't be specific straight romances and/or specific gay romances.

If you think it's less "special" that's your own issue, to be frank. If you love someone, and they love you back, that's amazing. The fact that you feel the need to bring gender into it is your own problem.

It sounds like a lot of straight men are just upset because for once in a game they aren't the overwhelming oppresive majority. There are four romance options in the game for everyone - for you, too. Equality, that's what they call it.

[PlumPaul93]

Masako52 wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Kryz wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

But thats it why does every romance option need to be bi, it might not diminish the character but it diminishes the romances,

How so?  It makes a romance less romance-y because both a man and a woman can do it? I don't see that one at all.

I humbly request an explanation.

I'd say yes for one it IS unrealistic, the fact that the romance could happen with the opposite gender does make it less "special". I humbly request an explanation as to why there shouldn't be specific straight romances and/or specific gay romances.

If you think it's less "special" that's your own issue, to be frank. If you love someone, and they love you back, that's amazing. The fact that you feel the need to bring gender into it is your own problem.

It sounds like a lot of straight men are just upset because for once in a game they aren't the overwhelming oppresive majority. There are four romance options in the game for everyone - for you, too. Equality, that's what they call it.

As I said just my opinion I just thought that the romances whether straight or gay would have some differences and not be exactly the same. Also glad you obviously read my other posts  Get over yourself