310 réponses à ce sujet

[DM Veil]

I believe in the right to choose what kind of relationship you want to have. Being straight myself I don't like getting hit on by gay men and it's a shame people are taking the stance "Too bad, deal with it" when I think it'd make more sense to include an option to choose what kind of relationships you want made available to you during the course of the game. A simple "Toggle All, Toggle None, Specify" option to block or unblock romance options during conversations would, in my mind at least, make everyone happy as people could avoid any unwanted advances while the options still exist for those that would like to pursue them.

Just my 2 cents.

[AlexXIV]

How believeable is it that your Hawke is female or male according tho what the player chooses? How believable is it that your Hawke can have any hair, skin and eye color you choose? How believable is it that either your sister or brother die according to your class? How believable is it that your companions' classes are balanced? How believable is it that the LI's are balanced (for male/females)? How believeable is it that in every game a number of characters are just waiting for your protagonist and your protagonist ALONE to be romanced?

If you think your LI's being bi-sexual and/or shifting according to your sex, however you will see it, will break your immersion, then all of the above must also do that. I find it a little bit hypocritical to say the homosexuality does break your immersion because it 'does not seem realistic' when all the other things don't.

I can't really say how it is if you play a male character and unwillingly get caught in a gay romance. Because, frankly, I almost always play female characters. So for me they are not all bi, but rather all into girls, namely my protagonst which is absolutely understandable because she is just as beautiful as Varric says, if not more.

Anyway, the only way to avoid it is probably to make a 'homophobia switch' somewhere at the beginning of the game that locks homosexual content for those who don't want to hear or see anything of it. But then you'd probably need switches for 'gay men' romances and lesbian romances as well since I am sure that, in general, lesbian romance options won't be seen as 'bad' as gay male romances. Reasons are obvious.

The only thing I'd complain about is that I would have prefered more companion dialogues in general. DA2 does have shortcommings in this respect compared to DA:O. And I am a bit disappointed that including more bi romances did lead to less dialoges with each individual companion/npc.

[Beamobaby]

If all the gay and bi guys can come in after Origins and ask for the option to romance Alistair is it not fair for a straight guy to ask for the option not to be romanced by Anders?

Especially since it has a (admittedly minor) gameplay consequence.

4 bisexual party members is no biggy. But can't I ask for the NPCs hitting on me to have at least a small amount of common sense? True that doesn't always reflect the real world but I'd be annoyed in the real world as well. Hell, women have every right to be annoyed with an overly aggressive guy. Can't guys be annoyed with an overly aggressive guy too? Or does every guy have the right to be overly aggressive and everyone should just shut up and deal with it IRL too?

Saying that all straight guys would whine if we didn't see lesbian sex scenes is pretty dumb and offensive. You're only making yourself look bad.

Don't equate a proposed sexuality toggle to a 'homophobia switch.' Did I feel a bit annoyed and uncomfortable with the Anders come-on? Yes. Does that mean I hate all non-straight people? No.

Asking the game makers to not make us feel that uncomfortable by forcing an awkward situation on you shouldn't be banned. A lot of people are voicing this opinion in a very impolite way but that doesn't mean anyone else has to retaliate. True there are a lot of people show are even straight up admitting they're homophobes but just watch who gets catch in your own spray zone.

peace

[Suron]

AlexXIV wrote...

How believeable is it that your Hawke is female or male according tho what the player chooses? How believable is it that your Hawke can have any hair, skin and eye color you choose? How believable is it that either your sister or brother die according to your class? How believable is it that your companions' classes are balanced? How believable is it that the LI's are balanced (for male/females)? How believeable is it that in every game a number of characters are just waiting for your protagonist and your protagonist ALONE to be romanced?

If you think your LI's being bi-sexual and/or shifting according to your sex, however you will see it, will break your immersion, then all of the above must also do that. I find it a little bit hypocritical to say the homosexuality does break your immersion because it 'does not seem realistic' when all the other things don't.

I can't really say how it is if you play a male character and unwillingly get caught in a gay romance. Because, frankly, I almost always play female characters. So for me they are not all bi, but rather all into girls, namely my protagonst which is absolutely understandable because she is just as beautiful as Varric says, if not more.

Anyway, the only way to avoid it is probably to make a 'homophobia switch' somewhere at the beginning of the game that locks homosexual content for those who don't want to hear or see anything of it. But then you'd probably need switches for 'gay men' romances and lesbian romances as well since I am sure that, in general, lesbian romance options won't be seen as 'bad' as gay male romances. Reasons are obvious.

The only thing I'd complain about is that I would have prefered more companion dialogues in general. DA2 does have shortcommings in this respect compared to DA:O. And I am a bit disappointed that including more bi romances did lead to less dialoges with each individual companion/npc.

because they only have so much TIME to get the games done.  As we see with DA2 there was A LOT of shortcuts and re-using done to make the deadlines.

with focusing characters specifically as gay/straight/bi then they only have to FOCUS on THAT..and can get more in-depth with the romance and provide MUCH BETTER dialogue and depth.  How is that hard to understand?

with making EVERYONE bisexual they have to split the LIMITED TIME they have to both sides of the romance...which IN THE END means LESS depth, less choice, less dialogue, less EVERYTHING.

In the "perfect" gaming world where devs aren't limited by deadlines and could put as much time and effort into said romances making everyone bisexual wouldn't be an issue.

However devs are governed by the "bottom line" and Development Times.  No matter how you look at it everyone being BiSexual takes away AS A WHOLE from the romances.  That doesn't mean no one should be bisexual..but it does mean that if they make EVERYONE bisexual the dialogue and story suffers.

it's the same thing with all aspects of the story.  DA2 had a set dev time.  And a lot of why it's so linear.  If they had branched out more with choices and alternate paths then the game would have been even shorter then it is...it's called common sense man.

THAT is why they should choose the background of each character..whether they're straight/gay/bi and focus on it.  If that meant that my "favorite" character was opposite of the sexual preference of "MY PC" then so be it.  It only brings benefits.  Splintering out to cater to all sexualities hurts the game AS A WHOLE considering they have LIMITED TIME to finish it.

[Yebisu85]

I read what Gaider wrote and it's no response to me , making Anders a utter gay character was one of the biggest mistakes in DA2 and I don't really care how will he justify that, he can't change the facts with the "oh ah you're a homophobe" thing, because simply no one whos male and heterosexual will care for this argument, nor do I.

Fenris can be romanced, but he dosn't feel as gay as Anders, the "he is sooo into you" feeling isn't there, but when you talk with Anders its crawling up your butt.

I'm male, heterosexual and I don't like being harrased by gay people, irl or game both, tho I'm ok with the romance a guy option for gay people IF it's not so into your face like it is in DA2.

When DA3 comes out, I'll just wait for the review this time, if it gets more gay than it is now I'll just skip it, no point seeing a great game series started with DA:O getting pummeled down by the feeling of threat and disgust each time I talk to a male character in the game.

GL with your sales Mr.Gaider if You keep that attitude up.

Modifié par Yebisu85, 27 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[Yebisu85]

Beamobaby wrote...

If all the gay and bi guys can come in after Origins and ask for the option to romance Alistair is it not fair for a straight guy to ask for the option not to be romanced by Anders?

Especially since it has a (admittedly minor) gameplay consequence.

4 bisexual party members is no biggy. But can't I ask for the NPCs hitting on me to have at least a small amount of common sense? True that doesn't always reflect the real world but I'd be annoyed in the real world as well. Hell, women have every right to be annoyed with an overly aggressive guy. Can't guys be annoyed with an overly aggressive guy too? Or does every guy have the right to be overly aggressive and everyone should just shut up and deal with it IRL too?

Saying that all straight guys would whine if we didn't see lesbian sex scenes is pretty dumb and offensive. You're only making yourself look bad.

Don't equate a proposed sexuality toggle to a 'homophobia switch.' Did I feel a bit annoyed and uncomfortable with the Anders come-on? Yes. Does that mean I hate all non-straight people? No.

Asking the game makers to not make us feel that uncomfortable by forcing an awkward situation on you shouldn't be banned. A lot of people are voicing this opinion in a very impolite way but that doesn't mean anyone else has to retaliate. True there are a lot of people show are even straight up admitting they're homophobes but just watch who gets catch in your own spray zone.

peace

You Sir wrote what most people had in their minds after reading Gaider's "response".

[Suron]

Yebisu85 wrote...

Beamobaby wrote...

If all the gay and bi guys can come in after Origins and ask for the option to romance Alistair is it not fair for a straight guy to ask for the option not to be romanced by Anders?

Especially since it has a (admittedly minor) gameplay consequence.

4 bisexual party members is no biggy. But can't I ask for the NPCs hitting on me to have at least a small amount of common sense? True that doesn't always reflect the real world but I'd be annoyed in the real world as well. Hell, women have every right to be annoyed with an overly aggressive guy. Can't guys be annoyed with an overly aggressive guy too? Or does every guy have the right to be overly aggressive and everyone should just shut up and deal with it IRL too?

Saying that all straight guys would whine if we didn't see lesbian sex scenes is pretty dumb and offensive. You're only making yourself look bad.

Don't equate a proposed sexuality toggle to a 'homophobia switch.' Did I feel a bit annoyed and uncomfortable with the Anders come-on? Yes. Does that mean I hate all non-straight people? No.

Asking the game makers to not make us feel that uncomfortable by forcing an awkward situation on you shouldn't be banned. A lot of people are voicing this opinion in a very impolite way but that doesn't mean anyone else has to retaliate. True there are a lot of people show are even straight up admitting they're homophobes but just watch who gets catch in your own spray zone.

peace

You Sir wrote what most people had in their minds after reading Gaider's "response".

except when it comes to the politically correct crowd.  As usual if you don't want a gay person hitting on you you MUST be homophobic.  Y'know..like prefering whites or asians over blacks..or somesuch means you're racist.

case in point on Dragon Age Nexus a lot of the Isabella face alterations turn her caucasion..and a lot of those modders are immediately met with hate-mail and accused of being racists.

it's stupid.

My problem, as I've said, with Anders being bi-sexual is how it's handled...if you try to nicely tell him you're not interested it's turned into an insult and he get's pissy.  And Gaiders response is laughable.  He hand-waves it as you just being homophobic.  Forget the fact it's insulting to gays..Bio is basically saying gays get angry when straights aren't interested.  Kinda like he hand-waves the negative opinions about DA2 being just those who "can't stand ANY change."  Forget the fact the game is rushed and has a lot of faults...to him DA2 is perfect and those speaking out against it's opinions are false because they're just stubborn.

[TheJediSaint]

I admit that Ander's come-one did make me uncomfortable, but I was fully able to shoot down his advances, so no big deal. Their are a lot more things in DA2 that disturbed me far more than having a man hit on me. The Childkiller, Franken Mom, Orsino-Harvester, and just about anything else that involved blood-magic. In a game with twisted stuff like that, an awkward homoerotic encounter is pretty small fish.

[Tleining]

@ Suron
some of the posts were along the lines of "i don't have anything against homosexuals. ..... But having Anders flirt with my MaleHawke is disgusting"
That has nothing to do with "politically correct crowd". Calling homosexual behaviour disgusting seems pretty homophobic to me.

Aside from that, i was pretty annoyed with Alistair giving my FemWarden a rose even though i had just been acting friendly towards him, no flirting whatsoever. So i told him "not interested" and was done with it. There was no reason to make a Post asking Bioware to change the game.
You don't like how Anders takes the rejection. okay. But that's one line of dialogue with no lasting effects. Why not just continue to play the game and let it be?

[Arppis]

Never understood why anyone gets annoyed when someone shows interest at them. No need, just say no.

[Suron]

Tleining wrote...

@ Suron
some of the posts were along the lines of "i don't have anything against homosexuals. ..... But having Anders flirt with my MaleHawke is disgusting"
That has nothing to do with "politically correct crowd". Calling homosexual behaviour disgusting seems pretty homophobic to me.

Aside from that, i was pretty annoyed with Alistair giving my FemWarden a rose even though i had just been acting friendly towards him, no flirting whatsoever. So i told him "not interested" and was done with it. There was no reason to make a Post asking Bioware to change the game.
You don't like how Anders takes the rejection. okay. But that's one line of dialogue with no lasting effects. Why not just continue to play the game and let it be?

Yah it's easy to move on..but the point is it's insulting that he get's so pissy because god forbid Hawke is straight.

And I'm not getting into the argument of saying "not against gays but being hit on by one is disgusting" other then to say......it's no different then a gay man or woman being hit on by the opposite sex saying it disgusts them.  It's normal.  They're not attracted to that sex..they don't like that sex...disgusting may be a strong word and way of saying it but point is..the thought of such a thing does disgust them..whether it's a little or a lot.  Because they're not attracted to such a thing.

If you don't like overweight people, or overly skinny, or hell even an "ugly" person hits you on you're first reaction is "ew no" you may not SAY IT..but that's your reaction.

So no..saying being hit on by a gay male or female when you're straight is not being a homophobe.  Knock off the double-standards.  Or are you saying that NO ONE that's hit on you has ever resulting in a revolting feeling from you regardless of whether it was their body-type, looks, sexual preference, race, etc, even if you didn't say it out loud.

Go let some big fat ugly sweaty smelly male/female hit on you and see if it doesn't revolt you in some way.  Does that mean you have something against fat people? not necessarily..you just aren't attracted or interested in them.  And that's just one example..and NO it's NOT any different.

[Lithuasil]

Now think about it for a while. I can't say for sure, if any of the people here were ever romantically involved and had someone hit on you. Rejecting someone is *always* awkward, and the most emotionally balanced people (which Anders most certainly isn't) don't take stuff like that well.

Having a character crush on you, even without prior advancements, and having to reject them in some way, is immersion. If you feel uncomfortable about it, that means *it works*, you feel a little more like hawke does in that moment, and Mr. Gaider should be congratulated for yet another job well done.

(There might of course be the fact, that you take no offense in being insulted by npcs, or having them try to murder you, or indeed murdering them - but having a male character express his interest in a way that fits his character crosses your personal moral event horizon. Fair enough, that just means you're either bigot, or homophobic, or both.)

[Danjaru]

I only mind it cause it just seems lazy to me. "lets appeal to everyone in an easy way... Make everyone bisexual!".

Would be more diverse and believable if they actually had characters that are strictly gay and strictly straight instead of just everyone being bisexual. (well, we have Sebastian for the strictly straight part, though unsure if females can romance him).

But romances in this game were so goddamn dull anyways, I say that's the real problem and not the fact that the Mage hits on you just for helping him, then gets mad cause you don't swing that way.

[Gadarr]

Suron wrote...
Yah it's easy to move on..but the point is it's insulting that he get's so pissy because god forbid Hawke is straight.

And I'm not getting into the argument of saying "not against gays but being hit on by one is disgusting" other then to say......it's no different then a gay man or woman being hit on by the opposite sex saying it disgusts them.  It's normal.  They're not attracted to that sex..they don't like that sex...disgusting may be a strong word and way of saying it but point is..the thought of such a thing does disgust them..whether it's a little or a lot.  Because they're not attracted to such a thing.

If you don't like overweight people, or overly skinny, or hell even an "ugly" person hits you on you're first reaction is "ew no" you may not SAY IT..but that's your reaction.

Except of course, people don't go wailing on the boards because of other 'disgusting' or disturbing stuff. At least, the amount of outrage is not even close. So, you might of course argue that being hit on by Anders is more disturbing than stitched together-Leandra, but, you know... if that's the case, it's pretty tough to deny homophobia. It's just waaaaaaay exaggerated.

Also, if you don't like Anders getting pissy because you turn him down (which is of course really surprising, who doesn't just *love* being turned down), reload. Don't pick the diplomatic dialogue option which apparently leads to his proposal. Problem solved. But it's not, is it? And really, there's just one explanation for this.

Anyway: Deal with it like the grown-up we're all supposed to be. It's not gonna go away, and if people are so insecure that they get fits of rage over this, tough luck. Don't play the game. Besides that, it's pretty pointless to argue emotions (which is exactly what all this is about - people feeling uncomfortable/pissy about being confronted with homosexuality. Or in other words, them being homophobic. Or do you really believe the amount of rage would be anywhere near the same level if there was some overweight npc hitting on you? Didn't think so.).

Modifié par Gadarr, 27 mars 2011 - 02:01 .

[Tleining]

@ Suron
"So last week this fat reeky guy hit on me, he was so disgusting, never taking no for an answer. I mean really, fat people are just disgusting, why do they think they have a right to speak with me."

That seems normal to you? I do get disgusted when people take it too far, i don't need someone sticking their tongue down my throat in a way of first greeting. But a friendly "hey, I'm interested in you, are you alright with it" does NOT disgust me. The Person might, but that does not excuse a general "*group-of-people-hitting-on-me* is disgusting".

As to Anders, does he react any differently when FemHawke rejects him? Anders easily overreacts (by my standards), that's part of who he is, it has nothing to do with ******-/heterosexuality.

[sheppard7]

Justice must have done it to Anders swinging both ways though. If you listened to him and the dwarf in Awakening go back and forth, Anders made it perfectly clear in no uncertain terms he was straight.

Bioware just didn't want to do the work with him and butchered the character for sake of him being available as a LI for a male Hawke. And if they didn't care about being politically correct about having Anders now gay, then they shouldn't care if Hawke could be equally politically incorrect in telling Anders word for word, "Dude, I believe in Adam and Eve! Not Adam and Steve!"

Bioware just wanted to take the easy road.

Edit: And not against other characters going both ways but when you have an established one like Anders who makes it clear he is not in one game then do a 180 in the next is lazy, Bioware.

Modifié par sheppard7, 27 mars 2011 - 02:12 .

[Tleining]

@ sheppard7
uh, where exactly? I never got that impression. Oghrens jokes were pretty weird. But i don't remember Anders' making a clear "i'm not bi" statement anywhere.

[sheppard7]

Tleining wrote...

@ sheppard7
uh, where exactly? I never got that impression. Oghrens jokes were pretty weird. But i don't remember Anders' making a clear "i'm not bi" statement anywhere.

In one of them when Oghren was talking about his robe for one. Another where they try to one-up each other with jokes. Oghren gave a knockout blow with the one where he talks in Anders type voice and says "Hey, Mr. Templar Man, what do you plan to do with that big sword?" And listen to what Anders reply back. (one of the best back and forths they had btw)

[Eternal Phoenix]

OP...you're an idiot.

[sheppard7]

I never tried it but I read that Anders also didn't allow any kind of romance in Awakening if you had a male warden. I never tried to romance Anders because male warden didn't try and the fem ones were all Alistair's playthings so they could probably one day rule the kingdom. Anders didn't rank high enough to ruin that. lol

[M8DMAN]

Tleining wrote...

@ Suron
some of the posts were along the lines of "i don't have anything against homosexuals. ..... But having Anders flirt with my MaleHawke is disgusting"
That has nothing to do with "politically correct crowd". Calling homosexual behaviour disgusting seems pretty homophobic to me.

Aside from that, i was pretty annoyed with Alistair giving my FemWarden a rose even though i had just been acting friendly towards him, no flirting whatsoever. So i told him "not interested" and was done with it. There was no reason to make a Post asking Bioware to change the game.
You don't like how Anders takes the rejection. okay. But that's one line of dialogue with no lasting effects. Why not just continue to play the game and let it be?

I'm a straight and I wouldn't like getting hit on by another guy. Does that make me Homophobic? No it does not...
What it does mean is that I don't want to be hit on by someone who is not Female!

Do you think gay guys like getting hit on by girls?  I'm guessing They probably don't.

Modifié par M8DMAN, 27 mars 2011 - 02:39 .

[sheppard7]

M8DMAN wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ Suron
some of the posts were along the lines of "i don't have anything against homosexuals. ..... But having Anders flirt with my MaleHawke is disgusting"
That has nothing to do with "politically correct crowd". Calling homosexual behaviour disgusting seems pretty homophobic to me.

Aside from that, i was pretty annoyed with Alistair giving my FemWarden a rose even though i had just been acting friendly towards him, no flirting whatsoever. So i told him "not interested" and was done with it. There was no reason to make a Post asking Bioware to change the game.
You don't like how Anders takes the rejection. okay. But that's one line of dialogue with no lasting effects. Why not just continue to play the game and let it be?

I'm a straight and I wouldn't like getting hit on by another guy. Does that make me Homophobic? No it does not...
What it does mean is that I don't want to be hit on by someone who is not Female!

Do you think gay guys like getting hit on by girls? No. They probably don't.

Also, most gays who have straight friends won't just hit on them like Bioware is making it in the game. They may get to a point they can joke with each other but they both know and understand it's just friendly joking. Bioware's presentation of it is not only weak but irresponsible.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Now about this homosexuality. Calling it disgusting is not homophobic. That's just an opinion and I know alot people who don't care about homosexuals but still wouldn't look on when two blokes kiss. I think you'll find ALOT of people find homosexuality disgusting but are too afraid to say so at fear of being branded "homophobic". Homophobic is where you hate homosexuals not where you find the deed disgusting. I find people who eat snails disgusting - does that mean I hate them? The OP is an idiot. Nuff said.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 27 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[Gadarr]

M8DMAN wrote...
I'm a straight and I wouldn't like getting hit on by another guy. Does that make me Homophobic? No it does not...
What it does mean is that I don't want to be hit on by someone who is not Female!

Do you think gay guys like getting hit on by girls? No. They probably don't.

Well, they will get hit on by Isabela. Difference is, I don't see numerous threads of outrage and hate by gay gamers.

Sooo... while nobody's asking you to *like* being hit on by a male, it's the way it is. There are ingame choices provided to you to deal with the problem (or, as I already said, reload), same as with every other potentially disturbing event.

I didn't like that Bethany died in my first playthrough. I was one sad puppy. Tough luck for me. So, point being, people aren't homophobic (or emotionally unstable) because they've got likes and dislikes, but because of the way they're dealing with it.

[M8DMAN]

sheppard7 wrote...

M8DMAN wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ Suron
some of the posts were along the lines of "i don't have anything against homosexuals. ..... But having Anders flirt with my MaleHawke is disgusting"
That has nothing to do with "politically correct crowd". Calling homosexual behaviour disgusting seems pretty homophobic to me.

Aside from that, i was pretty annoyed with Alistair giving my FemWarden a rose even though i had just been acting friendly towards him, no flirting whatsoever. So i told him "not interested" and was done with it. There was no reason to make a Post asking Bioware to change the game.
You don't like how Anders takes the rejection. okay. But that's one line of dialogue with no lasting effects. Why not just continue to play the game and let it be?

I'm a straight and I wouldn't like getting hit on by another guy. Does that make me Homophobic? No it does not...
What it does mean is that I don't want to be hit on by someone who is not Female!

Do you think gay guys like getting hit on by girls? No. They probably don't.

Also, most gays who have straight friends won't just hit on them like Bioware is making it in the game. They may get to a point they can joke with each other but they both know and understand it's just friendly joking. Bioware's presentation of it is not only weak but irresponsible.

I agree my best friend is gay, Heck he only came out of the closet a year ago.  He understands that I'm straight and I understand he's gay.  Simple as that.

Yeah sometimes we joke around but not once has he ever hit on me. The way Anders hits on Hawke just seemed to be so forced.