310 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Obviously your milleage may vary, but the only thing I don't like is this ''parallel universe'' idea. What I like is consistency outside of the PC. Hawke is different, and that should change how Hawke impacts people... but rolling a female Hawke shouldn't change the sexuality of characters. What if, in a more heteronormative game, it changed the gender instead? That sort of inconsistency across playthroughs bothers me.

Isabella is an implementation I actually like, because she isn't secretly situationally bisexual. She likes both genders. And if Anders also liked both genders (flirted with Fenris or something) then I would have been a fan of this implementation.

But IMO, situationally gay =! bisexual.

[Darth Obvious]

Who cares? At least you have choice when it comes to this aspect of the game. If everyone has the choice to romance these characters regardless of the main character's gender, then it offers the most amount of choice to the player, which is a GOOD thing.

Complaining about characters being bisexual is lame.

[Tleining]

@ M8DMAN
"not liking something" is not the same as "thinking of someone as disgusting". If i go to a bar, i fully expect people to hit on me. That includes people twice my age, several times my weight and sometimes undefined gender. As long as those people treat me with a bit of respect and understand the word "no", i don't have a problem with it. I would NEVER call their behaviour/sexual orientation disgusting.
If one of your gay-friends one day tells you that he has fallen in love with you, and your reaction to that is "god you're disgusting", that makes you a homophob imo.

@ Sheppard7
yes, that was one of Oghrens odd jokes. Anders reaction was not a clear "i'm not bi". You might take it as such, but that does not make it a fact. Anders is also wearing skirts, an earring and likes cooing over his cat. Some might take that as indication of him being gay. But it's never being stated perfectly clear.

Modifié par Tleining, 27 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[Custodire]

Though I didn't hear the statement Anders makes that supposedly defines him as straight, I have to say as a side note that he struck me as non-straight, just like John "Hellblazer" Constantine.

[errant_knight]

I'm fine with having both gay and bisexual characters in the game, but having Hawke be the determining factor of sexuality is just cheesy, to me. It's much better if the characters have their own strong preferences and developed histories than to have everyone want Hawke because of sheer awesomeness.

[Zjarcal]

I loved the way it was handled in DA2. We already knew about Isabela being bi, so there was no need for the game to make that clear, but we didn't know about Merrill, Anders, or Fenris. 

Listening to all the banters and conversations between Merrill and Isabela, was a great way to expose those preferences in Merrill (I'll never get tired of hearing her say she wants to slap Isabela only to later question what kind of slapping are we talking about... she clearly had naughty slapping in mind ).

I liked that Anders had a history with Karl. That he only mentions this if you're a guy is irrelevant, just because he doesn't expose that fact to a woman doesn't mean it didn't happen. I can't speak about Fenris since I haven't actually interacted much with his character.

I think in the context of who these characters are, the bisexuality of them all was believable and handled perfectly fine. I once had said that I wasn't crazy about them all being bi because it would feel forced, but given the way it was handled and who these characters are, I think it worked.

And it's not like they were ALL bi... Sebastian wasn't. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 27 mars 2011 - 04:44 .

[Sinmara]

In all this discussion I think people forget what "roleplay" is.

When I play a character, she/he has an own story and background. And this character know nothing about my other characters. So - if Anders is straight or gay - is nothing my character knows. In all cases.

THE npc doesnt exist. every character exists one time in one run of the game.

The gender and sexual orientation is NO theme in the game. Or did someone ask your female character why SHE is a warrior and not at home to grow children?

If you want gender/orientation as a theme in dialogues, every npc need a clear background, but not in this way the world, the story and characters are built now.

I like this decision in DA2, its in my eyes the best.

[SuperMedbh]

Sinmara wrote...

In all this discussion I think people forget what "roleplay" is.

When I play a character, she/he has an own story and background. And this character know nothing about my other characters. So - if Anders is straight or gay - is nothing my character knows. In all cases.

THE npc doesnt exist. every character exists one time in one run of the game.

Precisely.  In some runs, Fenris is gay.  In some runs, Carver is dead.

Although I'm fairly certain Anders is bi, no matter what.  Or at least metro, as we've known all along!

[Heather Cline]

Basically what Mara said. In one run through Merrill was my LI and Bethany lived. In another run through Carver lived and Isabella was my LI. Up until the point that Anders flirted with me I did not know he was a potential LI. Did it bother me? No. Why you may ask? Because it was a part of a well written character. Plus lesbian women, trans women get hit on all the time by men. Heterosexual men also get hit on all the time by gay/bi men. It's not the end of the world.

I liked the game and the way the characters interacted was awesome and you got to find out a lot of things about them. Just like Zjar said, it was implemented well and was well thought out.

[ThePasserby]

I like the choices I get by having the LIs open to both genders. I'm heterosexual, but I'm not offended by being hit on, in-game, by a companion of the same sex. So, I'd like to commend the writers for doing this.

For those who say that having four companions who are bisexual is unrealistic, I'd recommend reading up more about ancient societies and human sexuality, starting with the practice of pederasty. Terms like heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual are relatively modern. There was a time in ancient Greece and feudal era Japan when teenaged boys got their education from older men who taught them reading, writing, warfare, and everything else to prepare them for adult life. The older man and the boy would engage in sex as well, but likely non-penetrative, as in Greece. The boy, when he came into his own as an adult, would marry and have children and then he would in turn have a teenage boy to mentor.

This practice suggests that societies then, especially ones with a strong warrior culture, viewed same-sex relationships as nothing unnatural with little societal condemnation of such relationships and that the average person (or male, at least, as girls weren't given education and had very limited social interactions outside their family) would be what we now call "bisexual".

The rise of Christianity was one of the factors for the practice of pederasty to decline. But in Thedas, if the Chantry has no injunction against same sex coupling, I could imagine the prevaling sexual mores to be more free, and hence, a higher percentage of people being bisexual.

[GhostRed]

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

Thoughts?

The only disturbing thing about this game or this forum is your user name (the word "funeral" always makes my stomach churn, for obvious reasons ) LOL. /sarcasm - no insult intended, seriously.

But seriously, I think the possibility of non-hetero relationships in-game is really the only acceptable option.

While it can always be argued that the story line can be dicatated by the game's creator, simply on a technical level, you can't really make a game non-linear and still have romances, but not have the option to romance whom ever you choose.

Also, from a development standpoint, if you're going to have both male and female characters, it's just easier to allow the romance dialog procede irrelevant to your character's gender; i.e. it basically ignores your gender and procedes the same way in most romance scenarios.  The only thing that makes it "gay" or straight" is your own imagination that your character is truly one gender or the other.

While there are some exceptions to how the NPCs react and what your resulting dialogs are, most of the conversations are fairly gender neutral, even when involving romance.

That being said, while I see both sides of it, and I think if you're going to cater to one sexual preference, you need to cater to them all, I still argue that your sexual preference does not *DEFINE* you, it's simply part of who you are, so while I agree there's a discussion that needs to be had about how this is addressed in the game and otherwise, I don't think addressing someone's sexual preference is the #1 most important factor of the game.

But that doesn't make bigotry okay, and I respect Bioware for respecting all gamers as much as, probably more than, could be expected.

[billy the squid]

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

Thoughts from a polysexual male gamer, LGBT activist and character animation student...

While I do appreciate the ability to romance whomever I choose, I will admit it does take away a little from the believability of the Dragon Age world. Granted, it did disappoint me in DAO that I was not able to romance Alistair, but at the same time I commended them for making the characters more real, in that sense. What I would have liked to see, however, were some flirty options that he could have rejected. It would have been sad, but hey.  Maybe a heavy make-out scene before our favourite Ferelden prince decides it "feels wrong." Romance doesn't always work out. I feel like that's something they could have included in DAII, (in fact they did, to an extent, with Avaline). Yes, it's great to see a wide range of romancable characters for every gender and orientation, but more than that, I enjoy believability. With a 10% gay population (I think that was the consensus for 2010?) and an even lesser bisexual population, I found it a little odd that I could pretty much pick anyone I wanted. ...If only reality worked that way, hmm?

The way I look at it the sexuality has more to do with the style of the character and the associated background rather than pandering to any particular sexual prefrence. The issue that I have is that making all characters romancable to either sex feels like a bit of a cop out allowing all NPCs to be all things to all players, so to speak, rather than defining part of their personality of the character through their reactions to an amorous act on the behalf of the player. It just makes them feel more shallow.

Eg: Alistair was straight which, I felt, seemed to fit in more with his life resticted in the chantry, his nevousness around women etc.. although his comments about licking lamposts in winter, if their had been some man on man love with him, would have made for a great euphamism.

Again I think its a difficult choice for a writer to make and considering Gaider's sucess in creating some very memorable characters in DA O which had some restrictions toward sexual prefrence, I prefered his previous approach in comparison to the latest attempt, which I don't think has been as sucessful

[Arppis]

http://v.cdn.cad-com...10314-c6e0a.png

I don't particulary like the comic, but this one was funny & related to the subject.

Modifié par Arppis, 27 mars 2011 - 07:02 .

[SexBomb]

billy the squid wrote...

The way I look at it the sexuality has more to do with the style of the character and the associated background rather than pandering to any particular sexual prefrence. The issue that I have is that making all characters romancable to either sex feels like a bit of a cop out allowing all NPCs to be all things to all players, so to speak, rather than defining part of their personality of the character through their reactions to an amorous act on the behalf of the player. It just makes them feel more shallow.

Eg: Alistair was straight which, I felt, seemed to fit in more with his life resticted in the chantry, his nevousness around women etc.. although his comments about licking lamposts in winter, if their had been some man on man love with him, would have made for a great euphamism.

Again I think its a difficult choice for a writer to make and considering Gaider's sucess in creating some very memorable characters in DA O which had some restrictions toward sexual prefrence, I prefered his previous approach in comparison to the latest attempt, which I don't think has been as sucessful

I agree completely.  I know someone much earlier in this thread brought up a few good points about the characters backgrounds shaping who they are and their sexual preferences for either gender, and growing up, I know my experiences certainly did.  One of the things that got to me, however (and correct me if I'm wrong, perhaps I simply wasn't paying enough attention), was the fact that you couldn't talk to your companions about their preferences.  When Anders hit on me, at no point could I go back and be like "oh hey, um.  So I guess you like men, huh?"  Instead, the male/male romance simply proceeds without any address of orientation or character preferences.  With Zevran, the option for dialogue was brought up and you could have an interesting conversation about his orientation.  Yes, it might have been a little awkward (moreso for the warden than Zev), but it was interesting, and it was real.  There's an aspect that was definitely shallowed right there.  I commend the attempt to cater to everybody, but it definitely didn't work out for the best, if you ask me.

Arppis wrote...

http://v.cdn.cad-com...10314-c6e0a.png

I don't particulary like the comic, but this one was funny & related to the subject. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

...That was actually hillarious.

Modifié par Thats-Your-Funeral, 27 mars 2011 - 07:21 .

[Beamobaby]

Hah! That comic is awesome! That's the only issue about this whole thing that I feel has any weight to it. By being nice you had to choose between hopping in bed or gaining rivalry points. I kinda felt like it was punishing me gameplay-wise for playing a straight character.

Is it realistic? Maybe. Should it be?

Can I try to politely ask the developers to not have things like that in the next game without anyone calling me a homophobe?

In a game so centered around choice, why did it back you into a corner with only this one LI?

[The Angry One]

Beamobaby wrote...

Hah! That comic is awesome! That's the only issue about this whole thing that I feel has any weight to it. By being nice you had to choose between hopping in bed or gaining rivalry points. I kinda felt like it was punishing me gameplay-wise for playing a straight character.

Is it realistic? Maybe. Should it be?

Can I try to politely ask the developers to not have things like that in the next game without anyone calling me a homophobe?

In a game so centered around choice, why did it back you into a corner with only this one LI?

I'm going to explain this in big capital letters, because some of you do not appear to get it.

YOU CAN REJECT ANDERS WITHOUT GETTING RIVALRY POINTS.

[galian77]

billy the squid wrote...

The way I look at it the sexuality has more to do with the style of the character and the associated background rather than pandering to any particular sexual prefrence. The issue that I have is that making all characters romancable to either sex feels like a bit of a cop out allowing all NPCs to be all things to all players, so to speak, rather than defining part of their personality of the character through their reactions to an amorous act on the behalf of the player. It just makes them feel more shallow.

Eg: Alistair was straight which, I felt, seemed to fit in more with his life resticted in the chantry, his nevousness around women etc.. although his comments about licking lamposts in winter, if their had been some man on man love with him, would have made for a great euphamism.

Again I think its a difficult choice for a writer to make and considering Gaider's sucess in creating some very memorable characters in DA O which had some restrictions toward sexual prefrence, I prefered his previous approach in comparison to the latest attempt, which I don't think has been as sucessful

I agree completely.

I don't understand at all why people are getting their panties in a twist over this bisexual LI thing! Though with DA2, I have to agree that it seemed like a bit of a cop-out to me, so that they could make everyone happy without having to do extra work, which, by a business standpoint, is not a bad thing at all. Leliana and Zevran being bi in Origins was part of their character. I only see Isabela and perhaps Anders to an extent (since his past wasn't really clear, at least not to me) in the same light as I saw Leli and Zev.

I don't mind whatsoever, having a bisexual LI, if it's in character, as with anything. I romanced Zevran twice in Origins, and never did it bother me once knowing that he swung both ways and that he may be in love with a man in someone else's playthrough. That said, I also understand that some people are upset at the thought that their LI could be gay/straight/bi in someone else's playthrough (read that in a thread somewhere, don't remember if it was this one or not).

At the end of the day, who cares? It's YOUR playthrough, YOUR world, and your LI is in love with YOU at the end. What does it matter what they are in another life/world? In another life, or another universe, we could all be someone different. This is your world, shape it how you want.

Anyway, realized I went a bit off-topic there, but yeah, in short, the 4 bi LIs seemed like more of a cop-out than actually being a part of their characters.

[sheppard7]

M8DMAN wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

M8DMAN wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ Suron
some of the posts were along the lines of "i don't have anything against homosexuals. ..... But having Anders flirt with my MaleHawke is disgusting"
That has nothing to do with "politically correct crowd". Calling homosexual behaviour disgusting seems pretty homophobic to me.

Aside from that, i was pretty annoyed with Alistair giving my FemWarden a rose even though i had just been acting friendly towards him, no flirting whatsoever. So i told him "not interested" and was done with it. There was no reason to make a Post asking Bioware to change the game.
You don't like how Anders takes the rejection. okay. But that's one line of dialogue with no lasting effects. Why not just continue to play the game and let it be?

I'm a straight and I wouldn't like getting hit on by another guy. Does that make me Homophobic? No it does not...
What it does mean is that I don't want to be hit on by someone who is not Female!

Do you think gay guys like getting hit on by girls? No. They probably don't.

Also, most gays who have straight friends won't just hit on them like Bioware is making it in the game. They may get to a point they can joke with each other but they both know and understand it's just friendly joking. Bioware's presentation of it is not only weak but irresponsible.

I agree my best friend is gay, Heck he only came out of the closet a year ago.  He understands that I'm straight and I understand he's gay.  Simple as that.

Yeah sometimes we joke around but not once has he ever hit on me. The way Anders hits on Hawke just seemed to be so forced.

Yeah, exactly. Bioware in their ATTEMPT (poorly executed attempt at that) to be P.C. shows lack of character development which used to be their strong point over other companies. I have no issues with what they TRIED to do. My issue is how badly they did it.

[The Angry One]

Or you're just assuming. You accuse BioWare of lack of character development and yet refuse to understand that Anders is pushy because it's part of his character.

[Dangerfoot]

He hits on you once, to be honest I never even noticed him hitting on me. How is that them forcing anything, or trying to be politically correct? Jesus, people.

[Thiefy]

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...
While I do appreciate the ability to romance whomever I choose, I will admit it does take away a little from the believability of the Dragon Age world. Granted, it did disappoint me in DAO that I was not able to romance Alistair, but at the same time I commended them for making the characters more real, in that sense. What I would have liked to see, however, were some flirty options that he could have rejected. It would have been sad, but hey.  Maybe a heavy make-out scene before our favourite Ferelden prince decides it "feels wrong." Romance doesn't always work out. I feel like that's something they could have included in DAII, (in fact they did, to an extent, with Avaline). Yes, it's great to see a wide range of romancable characters for every gender and orientation, but more than that, I enjoy believability. With a 10% gay population (I think that was the consensus for 2010?) and an even lesser bisexual population, I found it a little odd that I could pretty much pick anyone I wanted. ...If only reality worked that way, hmm?

There's sebastien, for females, anyway.

[The Angry One]

Dangerfoot wrote...

He hits on you once, to be honest I never even noticed him hitting on me. How is that them forcing anything, or trying to be politically correct? Jesus, people.

Trying to understand this will just lead to banging your head on the desk.
Anders pushiness, which is part of his character, is minor compared to, say, Isabela or Zevran.

[Beamobaby]

Yeah, he hits on you only once, and it only had a minor consequence, but people honestly asking for non-aggressive come-ons in the next game are just being called homophobes.

Sure, I'll admit you can get around rivalry points with Anders, but the game wasn't consistent in its implementation. Olive branch dialogue options all led right to the love showdown.

Bioware did good with making this series more inclusive, but the Anders 'punishment for being straight' didn't really work right. The game didn't follow its own rules.


Anyone saying its too weird with so many bisexuals or that having any come-on at all is weird, is really a homophobe and should just deal with it. I'm just arguing that Anders took it one or two lines of dialogue too far.


After Origins gay people wanted to romance Alistair. Was the game being homophobic for establishing him as straight? I never tried it, but did other party members lose friendship with you if you had a gay romance with Zev? I don't know of any games where NPCs look down on you because of your character's sexuality. If they did, it'd be a bad move by the developers. That's kinda my feeling on Anders however.


This thread has a lot of semi-homophobes (me?), actual homophobes, stubborn gays, and hetero-guilt filled people in it.