309 réponses à ce sujet

[YohkoOhno]

The bolded part is what scares me mainly because it seems that is their main demographic now, he does not seem at all bothered or interested in what fans or reviews are saying.

The problem is fans aren't alone to make up all the business. Everybody who likes the game is not a fan. Non-fans are less loyal and may be more fickle, but they can be the core audience. It wasn't just Star Wars "fans" that go see those movies.

The fans can also be very resistant to even minor changes--sometimes fans are a bit fanatical. The problem is that some can also be very vocal. If I was Laidlaw, I'd look at the Constructive Criticism thread the most--there you have individual people posting their criticisms, people who are a bit more quiet elsewhere. A lot of the complaint threads have the same 5-10 people saying the same thing over and over again--that's not a good sampling. He has to listen to all the feedback, not just vocal complainers, but people who enjoyed it, as well as objective statistics to see what choices people made in the game, did they finish, etc.

I'm reading several books on business right now, and one part of handling business is that you have to also know when listening to your customers is NOT a good idea. In several cases when their is rapid change in the industry, the companies who don't adapt can die while competitors take over. Bioware has to keep abreast of the Marketplace and I don't see anything saying that they only make RPGs. The RPG also has changed. I mean, I loved Infocom and Sierra games but they both went under when the text adventure and graphic adventure games fell to the new kinds of experiences coming out.

The game industry is not "art"--well, Art plays a role, but it is also a business and has a lot of business needs that need to be set. I think Bioware is trying to figure out how to keep their quality of storytelling while game design is rapidly changing with new computer capabilities and new ideas. And that doesn't mean we should ignore the negative aspects--there are some very legitimate concerns about DA2 that I agree with.

[Craig Bobknock]

I'd just like to know Bioware's endgame. I just want them to come out and say it directly and honestly--maybe even honestly explain their rationale.

If this is THE direction they're choosing to go then fine. I'll look for engrossing, deeper gaming experiences elsewhere. I can thus process this change, acknowledge that it sucks, get over it, and move on.

BUT, Bioware has consistently made engrossing, complex, deep games in the past. If DA2 was just an experiment I'm obviously going to continue to support them.

[Jean de Valette]

Bluumberry wrote...

You are assuming everyone thought DA2 wasn't good and that we want to continue the tale of the Warden.

What's the point of making DA2 if you're not going to stick to its principle gaming mechanics, story and atmosphere? Should've made it a console-only edition, or a stand-alone expansion (which they could've cut on "content" and thereby generating less criticism for reused areas). 

And I don't get these people who are loving the new direction DA2 took. Apart from that it was an obvious cash-in, surely there are better action games available for console, which has even more "streamlining" and buttons for awesome?

As far as western cRPGs go, there are very few A+ titles out there, especially from North America. So it's sad that Bioware and EA are also joining the bandwagon by proclaiming the death of the genre.

[Euno17]

They won't do that because it would do MORE damage to DA 2 and why in the world would EA want to LOSE OUT on money?

Best thing they can do is in future interviews, start talking about DA 3 as the 'next Origins' story. Though, even then I probably won't be getting it at-least straight off the bat. I can't seem to get the 'when you press a button, something awesome has to happen' line out of my head.

[Dokarqt]

YohkoOhno wrote...

The bolded part is what scares me mainly because it seems that is their main demographic now, he does not seem at all bothered or interested in what fans or reviews are saying.

The problem is fans aren't alone to make up all the business. Everybody who likes the game is not a fan. Non-fans are less loyal and may be more fickle, but they can be the core audience. It wasn't just Star Wars "fans" that go see those movies.

The fans can also be very resistant to even minor changes--sometimes fans are a bit fanatical. The problem is that some can also be very vocal. If I was Laidlaw, I'd look at the Constructive Criticism thread the most--there you have individual people posting their criticisms, people who are a bit more quiet elsewhere. A lot of the complaint threads have the same 5-10 people saying the same thing over and over again--that's not a good sampling. He has to listen to all the feedback, not just vocal complainers, but people who enjoyed it, as well as objective statistics to see what choices people made in the game, did they finish, etc.

I'm reading several books on business right now, and one part of handling business is that you have to also know when listening to your customers is NOT a good idea. In several cases when their is rapid change in the industry, the companies who don't adapt can die while competitors take over. Bioware has to keep abreast of the Marketplace and I don't see anything saying that they only make RPGs. The RPG also has changed. I mean, I loved Infocom and Sierra games but they both went under when the text adventure and graphic adventure games fell to the new kinds of experiences coming out.

The game industry is not "art"--well, Art plays a role, but it is also a business and has a lot of business needs that need to be set. I think Bioware is trying to figure out how to keep their quality of storytelling while game design is rapidly changing with new computer capabilities and new ideas. And that doesn't mean we should ignore the negative aspects--there are some very legitimate concerns about DA2 that I agree with.

I did not mean that he should only listen to the "fans", simply meant that it sounds like he's completely ignoring the fans and other negative criticisms.

[Cutlasskiwi]

bill4747bill wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

They need to apologise to their fans, it's the honourable thing to do when you know you made a huge mistake and disappointed your fans.

I'm a fan and I'm not disappointed. 

  As Sten would say  "Clearly one of these things are not true."

you are either not a fan, or are not dissapointed.

Or maybe 'Sten logic' is false?

Sten wasn't very open minded.

[YohkoOhno]

I did not mean that he should only listen to the "fans", simply meant that it sounds like he's completely ignoring the fans and other negative criticisms.

I don't think he's ignoring the fans, but the games only been out for less than a month. I think BW needs time to weed through all the complaints/concerns/praise and figure out what works and what doesn't. Unless we were dealing with massive bugs that made the game unplayable, I think it's too early to determine if it was successful or not.

[Bluumberry]

Jean de Valette wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

You are assuming everyone thought DA2 wasn't good and that we want to continue the tale of the Warden.

What's the point of making DA2 if you're not going to stick to its principle gaming mechanics, story and atmosphere? Should've made it a console-only edition, or a stand-alone expansion (which they could've cut on "content" and thereby generating less criticism for reused areas). 

And I don't get these people who are loving the new direction DA2 took. Apart from that it was an obvious cash-in, surely there are better action games available for console, which has even more "streamlining" and buttons for awesome?

And I don't get the people who don't see the good parts of DA2 and ignore the bad faults of DAO.

Not sticking to its principle gaming mechanics, story and atmosphere?? What game were you playing?

[Baelyn]

Dokarqt wrote...

YohkoOhno wrote...

The bolded part is what scares me mainly because it seems that is their main demographic now, he does not seem at all bothered or interested in what fans or reviews are saying.

The problem is fans aren't alone to make up all the business. Everybody who likes the game is not a fan. Non-fans are less loyal and may be more fickle, but they can be the core audience. It wasn't just Star Wars "fans" that go see those movies.

The fans can also be very resistant to even minor changes--sometimes fans are a bit fanatical. The problem is that some can also be very vocal. If I was Laidlaw, I'd look at the Constructive Criticism thread the most--there you have individual people posting their criticisms, people who are a bit more quiet elsewhere. A lot of the complaint threads have the same 5-10 people saying the same thing over and over again--that's not a good sampling. He has to listen to all the feedback, not just vocal complainers, but people who enjoyed it, as well as objective statistics to see what choices people made in the game, did they finish, etc.

I'm reading several books on business right now, and one part of handling business is that you have to also know when listening to your customers is NOT a good idea. In several cases when their is rapid change in the industry, the companies who don't adapt can die while competitors take over. Bioware has to keep abreast of the Marketplace and I don't see anything saying that they only make RPGs. The RPG also has changed. I mean, I loved Infocom and Sierra games but they both went under when the text adventure and graphic adventure games fell to the new kinds of experiences coming out.

The game industry is not "art"--well, Art plays a role, but it is also a business and has a lot of business needs that need to be set. I think Bioware is trying to figure out how to keep their quality of storytelling while game design is rapidly changing with new computer capabilities and new ideas. And that doesn't mean we should ignore the negative aspects--there are some very legitimate concerns about DA2 that I agree with.

I did not mean that he should only listen to the "fans", simply meant that it sounds like he's completely ignoring the fans and other negative criticisms.

Did you read my post? Every single one of those quotes indicates he is listening to the fan's negative criticisms. With one of the largest examples being him actually out right saying they will most likely return to a way to equip your companions. But has that quote gotten press from the so called "fans" ? No, they just continue to pick out lines that they can subjectively use to make him out to be the devil that destroyed Dragon Age.

[Eclipse_9990]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...
And customers don't have to buy any more EA/Bioware games. 

Oh, have you not heard? 75% of people who buy BioWare games get this strange condition where buy BioWare games no matter how bad, horrific, buggy or ugly they are.

Yeah. Its called fanboyism. 

[ShinsFortress]

Personally, I wonder why their games are released buggier and buggier.  I mean, there's already a thread in Tech Self Help for a collection of "major issues".  Some of which are fixed in 1.01.  Question: how do such blatant problems get past a professional QA/QC department?
I was not really thinking of DA2 much, given how much of DA1 was still waiting to be fixed.  I am certainly not buying it now and I doubt I will even be peeking here occasionally in hope long before DA3 is more than a fluff in the wind.
I do agree that the level of vitriol some hurl at Bioware is unwarranted.  If the game doesn't work, you may return it, get your money back *and* you can choose no to buy more.  Bioware/EA lose twice and you don't lose much at all.
Other posters are right, in that despite the feelings being somewhat different in this industry to many others, it's still a business.  If you don't like what Bioware have done, vote with your wallet!

[AkiKishi]

ShinsFortress wrote...

Personally, I wonder why their games are released buggier and buggier.  I mean, there's already a thread in Tech Self Help for a collection of "major issues".  Some of which are fixed in 1.01.  Question: how do such blatant problems get past a professional QA/QC department?
I was not really thinking of DA2 much, given how much of DA1 was still waiting to be fixed.  I am certainly not buying it now and I doubt I will even be peeking here occasionally in hope long before DA3 is more than a fluff in the wind.
I do agree that the level of vitriol some hurl at Bioware is unwarranted.  If the game doesn't work, you may return it, get your money back *and* you can choose no to buy more.  Bioware/EA lose twice and you don't lose much at all.
Other posters are right, in that despite the feelings being somewhat different in this industry to many others, it's still a business.  If you don't like what Bioware have done, vote with your wallet!

That's the thing with bugs, especially random ones. But stuff like the Isabella slowdown, that's inexcusible. No way should that have gone through. Especially as DA2 is over a much more limted area than DA.

I was quite fortunate, only thing I came across were two freezes at the same point in the end battle. Given it's current state and no patch ETA I would not blame anyone for returning the game as defective.

[Forsakerr]

ShinsFortress wrote...

Personally, I wonder why their games are released buggier and buggier.  I mean, there's already a thread in Tech Self Help for a collection of "major issues".  Some of which are fixed in 1.01.  Question: how do such blatant problems get past a professional QA/QC department?
I was not really thinking of DA2 much, given how much of DA1 was still waiting to be fixed.  I am certainly not buying it now and I doubt I will even be peeking here occasionally in hope long before DA3 is more than a fluff in the wind.
I do agree that the level of vitriol some hurl at Bioware is unwarranted.  If the game doesn't work, you may return it, get your money back *and* you can choose no to buy more.  Bioware/EA lose twice and you don't lose much at all.
Other posters are right, in that despite the feelings being somewhat different in this industry to many others, it's still a business.  If you don't like what Bioware have done, vote with your wallet!

Oh I'd vote with my wallet if i could but i did not know they went that far so i got caught by their marketing and bought it and now they got my money they will think i'm happy with those changes and am now part of the DA2 sales statistics.Trust me i'll wait before buying ME3 and no more pre orders from me, the last few games i pre ordered and bought strat guides with them turned into crap , i did not follow DA2 as much as i did with DA:O because i was following TOR and bought it with blind faith and now with DA2 im worried about TOR i had never guessed Bioware gods would fail right?

[Selene Moonsong]

Aries is quite correct in this quote:

aries1001 wrote...

I certainly can remember threads about having a voiced main character, also threads about having all the LIs bi, also threads about making the companions more their own person, having them do their own thing, when not in the party.
I even can remember people asking for a game about politics. And maybe I can also remember people asking for prettier graphics, (probably not the anime look, though) and faster, more responsive combat. Bioware delivers....and people complain. Had Bioware not changed it, people would have complained about it being more of the same-same old.

These are some of the many things that have been asked for by fans since the days of NWN:

Voiced Protagonist
Companions doing things on their own
More romantic interests straight and S/S
Involvement in Politics
Better graphics (a common staple)
More and better combat animations

I don't keep a record of everything asked for, but I have been participating in the BioWare forums since around 2001, earlier actually, because I started with BG in the late in 1998.

[Rutaan]

Bluumberry wrote...

And I don't get the people who don't see the good parts of DA2 and ignore the bad faults of DAO.

Not sticking to its principle gaming mechanics, story and atmosphere?? What game were you playing?

It's because the bad parts of DA2 far outweigh the good. The UI is among the most sparse, dull and artless in memory. It has elements that are weirdly out of place, like the garbage can icons and the Sci-fi transition sounds. Don't try to tell me they didn't fish those out of a sound effect scrap heap. It brings FedEx missions to a new low, something I would have scarcely believed possible. Now we don't even need to be given a quest. We just find the object and it telepathically tells us where to take it.

Whatever you may think of the Ninja Turtles combat, the armored guys dropping from the sky are a bad joke. I'd like to write a clever screed on what the devs could have possibly been thinking when this decision was made, but words escape me. With somewhere between 15-20 years of fans complaining about their heroes fishing in trash, we still find priceless items in rain barrels and crates in the slums. Not only that, but DA2 has the best trash heap items I can remember in any game. It also takes the cake for stupidest treasure with the junk items. The torn trousers might have been worth a chuckle if we only found one or two, but the time I found the 20th one, I had to admit that it wasn't there to amuse, it was just mindless filler from a team that didn't have the time or inclination to be the least bit creative.

[BarbSwift62]

Bioware/EA must apologize for DA2 or else people will be hesitant to buy DA3.

Hmmm, let me think!!!!!!! Yes, they should be apologizing to everyone, whether some of you want an apology or not. They LIED to all of us. They said there was no SecuROM technology being used for DA2 and there was. Why couldn't they just be honest and state that they were using the SecuROM Release Control, and state is wasn't like the other SecuROM that people have had to deal with in the past. Now that would have been the HONEST way of doing things.

As for another reason they need to apologize is, there are still people NOT able to play yet. Ones who haven't go so far as using the cracked exe (illegal in most countries).

Those people including the ones that have gone the alternate way to play their games, have all paid out hard earned money and are being ignored.

As I've said before in another thread- http://social.biowar...9752/10#6754554 they need to start treating their consumers with some respect and REMOVE ALL of the DRM's they're NOT working anyway and all they are doing is stopping people from legally playing their game. And for those that are still not able to play, give the poor souls their money back.

For God's sake, do the right thing for once.

[ink07]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

These are some of the many things that have been asked for by fans since the days of NWN:

Voiced Protagonist
Companions doing things on their own
More romantic interests straight and S/S
Involvement in Politics
Better graphics (a common staple)
More and better combat animations

I don't keep a record of everything asked for, but I have been participating in the BioWare forums since around 2001, earlier actually, because I started with BG in the late in 1998.

And it worked wonders for them, didn't it? Especially when you cripple your combat mechanics just to make them flashier, or when changing the protagonist comes at the expense of the wide variety of race options from the previous game and on top of that makes most of your personal character decisions become useless for the sequel, or when your product is so rushed that it ends up looking significantly worse than your previous endeavor.

But sure, keep fighting the good fight, if DA2 is somehow worse it's all the fans fault, they just can't stop asking for way too many things, and Bioware only wishes to please.

I know I'm being facetious but come on, Dragon Age was not the product of listening to the majority of the fans that made the first one a success. There is no way in hell you can say that.

Modifié par ink07, 27 mars 2011 - 11:18 .

[addu2urmanapool]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Aries is quite correct in this quote:

aries1001 wrote...

I certainly can remember threads about having a voiced main character, also threads about having all the LIs bi, also threads about making the companions more their own person, having them do their own thing, when not in the party.
I even can remember people asking for a game about politics. And maybe I can also remember people asking for prettier graphics, (probably not the anime look, though) and faster, more responsive combat. Bioware delivers....and people complain. Had Bioware not changed it, people would have complained about it being more of the same-same old.

These are some of the many things that have been asked for by fans since the days of NWN:

Voiced Protagonist
Companions doing things on their own
More romantic interests straight and S/S
Involvement in Politics
Better graphics (a common staple)
More and better combat animations

I don't keep a record of everything asked for, but I have been participating in the BioWare forums since around 2001, earlier actually, because I started with BG in the late in 1998.

And 90% of those who criticize Dragon Age (except the bottom 10% in intellect, who complain about nonsense like the game not being for straights, whatever that means) do not take issue with those new features. They take issue with straight up BUGS, such as no auto-attack for consoles despite that being promised days before release, bugs that haven't been fixed THREE WEEKS after release, sloppy writing, and shoddiness in all facets of the game.

[randName]

to the OP: No I don't agree, they just need to make a good game out of DA3 and people will play it.

& to the people that need an apology, I'd rather that they weren't given one, since good riddance (And I didn't like DA2, but the gall to demand an apology from BioWare; they owe you close to nothing, so close I'd consider it zero if you are just a buyer).

[Travie]

I completely agree OP. I hope there is at least an acknowledgement of the mistakes made so we can look forward to DA3 with some anticipation. Only 1 month after release and I'm tired to death of DA2.

At least the spamming has died down to a minimum on the forums.

Happy to see a polite discussion such as this again.

[AlanC9]

ink07 wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

These are some of the many things that have been asked for by fans since the days of NWN:

Voiced Protagonist
Companions doing things on their own
More romantic interests straight and S/S
Involvement in Politics
Better graphics (a common staple)
More and better combat animations

I don't keep a record of everything asked for, but I have been participating in the BioWare forums since around 2001, earlier actually, because I started with BG in the late in 1998.

And it worked wonders for them, didn't it? Especially when you cripple your combat mechanics just to make them flashier, or when changing the protagonist comes at the expense of the wide variety of race options from the previous game and on top of that makes most of your personal character decisions become useless for the sequel, or when your product is so rushed that it ends up looking significantly worse than your previous endeavor.

But sure, keep fighting the good fight, if DA2 is somehow worse it's all the fans fault, they just can't stop asking for way too many things, and Bioware only wishes to please.

I know I'm being facetious but come on, Dragon Age was not the product of listening to the majority of the fans that made the first one a success. There is no way in hell you can say that.

Well, let's not confuse categories. Some of the changes in DA2 certainly were requested by a sizable percentage of fans -- I don't have enough data to know who's in the majority on issues like VO for the PC. Some of the changes were because Bio wanted -- needed? -- to make a faster, cheaper game. Some of the changes, like animations and graphics, seem to have been to recruit new players. And some of the changes may have been because Bio doesn't really believe in certain RPG traditions on the merits anymore. I'm thinking about loot in particular.

Also, Bio may have run up against the limits of a data-driven approach to product design. Someone else on the board said that DA2 is the New Coke of RPGs. The important thing about that metaphor is that techniques like focus groups can't tell you some important things about your product and its fans. Even Coke fans liked the taste of New Coke better than Coke.

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[topster88]

Lol @ people saying "EA/BW DOESN'T HAVE TA DO NOTHING"

If they want me to buy DA3 as opposed to renting it, they do.

[Maria Caliban]

AlanC9 wrote...

Also, Bio may have run up against the limits of a data-driven approach to product design. Someone else on the board said that DA2 is the New Coke of RPGs. The important thing about that metaphor is that techniques like focus groups can't tell you some important things about your product and its fans. Even Coke fans liked the taste of New Coke better than Coke.

The correlations between New Coke and DA II are interesting.

1. New Coke was not born of focus testing, but by ignoring focus testing. In surveys, people were generally positive about New Coke. In focus testing, people were generally positive but about 10% of people hated the idea of Coke changing. That 10% of people would often convince the other participants that the drink they liked shouldn't be Coke because Coke shouldn't change.

When New Coke was released, the same thing happened. People liked it, but a vocal minority hated it, and they convinced people that Coke shouldn't change. Eventually, the company brought back classic Coke.

2. New Coke came about because Coke was losing market share to Pepsi, which was sweeter. The new formula was much, much sweeter than original Coke to reflect changes in demographics and taste.

After Coke classic returned, however, the company continued to sweeten it. In fact, if you buy a bottle of Coke classic today, you'll get something sweeter than the original Coke formula and sweeter than New Coke. They simply haven't marketed the changes.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2011 - 11:52 .

[Bootsykk]

Please don't speak fallacies. Bioware does not have to apologize for DA2, and not everyone will be hesitant to buy DA3.

I am sick and tired of people acting like the only true opinion from true fans of DAO is that DA2 sucks, and is an abomination of the franchise. I assure you that I know several people who completely disagree. DA2 has it's flaws, but I hardly think that would make me hesitant to buy DA3 without EA games coming down and saying, "We're so sorry, fans. We shouldn't have let you down!"...

[Torrential]

Juneya wrote...
DA2 has it's flaws, but I hardly think that would make me hesitant to buy DA3

Juneya I dunno, I didn't think it sucked, it was just medicore and I've never had that feeling about a bioware title not once in all the years we have bought them. So at least in my neck of the woods as a hardcore bioware fan myself, my partner and those we socialise with will not be purchasing DA:3 without consideration. DA:O I bought a copy, an expansion, she bought a copy an expansion, and we both had the DLC . DA:2, with no modding possibilities to prop it up, we’ve already moved on to a new title; no DLC or expansions are likely to bring us back as the core of DA2 is aimed at a different action RPG audience.

I think generally across the board if people are really honest with themselves, the reception wasn't as hot as it was with DA:O. Whether you like DA2 better or not, it isn't too hard to see if we can look past our own opinions; so generally speaking I'd say your comment is wrong. DA2 will make people reconsider buying DA3, it remains to be seen whether it will attract enough new fans to make up for the loss of the old ones.

OP - Asking for an apology is ridiculous, go and get your money back and move on to something you like more.

As a side note EA - never do anything, period. They have one of the worst reps with their fans going, so expecting even a remark on the weather by the company is like punching yourself in the ear over and over. It doesn't get any more likely to be enjoyable.

edit - when will they fix this forums post spacing, it always comes out about 3 lines to every one in word.

Modifié par Torrential, 28 mars 2011 - 12:10 .