387 réponses à ce sujet

[MaximusPhoenix]

borelocin wrote...

As an older straight bloke who has been gaming for decades I think it's about bloody time our gay friends got some pixellated loving too.

I read so much bulls*** on these forums and people who talk like they have some sort of birthright to judge other people; but then I read posts like yours and it makes me realize that society is slowly changing, for the better.

Modifié par MaximusPhoenix, 31 mars 2011 - 06:12 .

[Grestorn]

Aireoth wrote...

I agree with Apoc, not everyone is Bi/Gay (and sorry to Grenstorn, but if your not gay, all the money, love and gay sex in the world won't change that) thus the game romances seem even more fake/forced then the bad writing and poor scripting makes it.

In real life you're absolutely right.

But we're talking about virtual characters in a virtual world. And virtual characters CAN be straight or gay just by flipping a switch. It's that easy.

In this case, the switch is you selection of gender and the way you choose your dialog options.

Modifié par Grestorn, 31 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[Grestorn]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Grestorn - see, you've proven my point. You didn't even stop to think which one of those two groups I belong to. You're simply venting... let it out my man, trust me - "I get it."

Read my post again. Never did I make any assumption about your sexuality. You're just comming across as being extremely arogant. Whether your straight or gay doesn't change that.

It's not yours to judge what people are discussing about.

Modifié par Grestorn, 31 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[Grestorn]

Carfax wrote...

What a bunch of nonsense.  You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about..

Your sexual orientation is something that you're born with, and does not "magically shift" just from meeting a certain person.......unless you're already biologically predisposed to that sort of thing.

In other words, people that seemingly change their sexuality throughout their lives are already innately bisexual, and have the capability of doing so.

Well, you're both right.

The truth is, that only very few people are really absolutely straight or gay. Most people have a more or less pronounced affection for both genders.

There's not just three distinctive states you can be born with - straight, bi or gay - it's more like a value from 0 (absolutely hetero) over 50 (bi) to 100 (absolutely gay)  (you can reverse the numbers if you're offended otherwise ).

Most people would be around 20-40 on this scale. The distribution looks like a gaussian bell with the maximum somewhere in that area.

But that also means that most people can actually have sex with someone of the same or opposite sex. The thing is, that we're also conditioned during our youth.

I lived a straight life for many years, I was even married to a woman. Even though I was always attracted to men, but I didn't want to accept that for myself, instead I actively shut that thought out of my life.

I think on my scale above, I'd say I'm arround 70. It took me a long, long time to accept that I'm gay and that I want to live a gay life instead of a lie.

Still, even though I can have sex with a woman, I never thought of myself as being bisexual.

Modifié par Grestorn, 31 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Eterna]

I kiss my boyfriend in public just to make people uncomfortable.

[Taura-Tierno]

Carfax wrote...

Zandilar wrote...

Time to bust a myth...

Sexuality is a lot more fluid than most people think. There are many people who only come out later in life. There are some people who come out early, but later on discover there's this person they really really like, but who isn't of a gender they'd normally fall for. The fact that a person has been in X number of relationships of a particular type NEVER precludes the idea that they could just find a person who happenes to be the one, but isn't of a gender that person would usually fall for. It isn't unrealistic to think a man who has only ever been in relationships with women, would one day fall in love with a man - improbable maybe (more likely if you flip the genders used in the example), but not impossible, and by no means unrealistic.

Oh, and Aireoth... Why wouldn't a group of people with similar sexualities work together to fight evil? Honestly, people tend to group with those they have things in common. One thing they might have in common is a similar appreciation for both (or one or the other) gender. Do you think "The L Word" or "Queer as Folk" were unrealistic just because all of the protagonists were gay?

What a bunch of nonsense.  You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about..

Your sexual orientation is something that you're born with, and does not "magically shift" just from meeting a certain person.......unless you're already biologically predisposed to that sort of thing.

In other words, people that seemingly change their sexuality throughout their lives are already innately bisexual, and have the capability of doing so.

But being genetically predisposed to it, without ever considering it, can be seen as a "magical shift". A guy who's always been into girls, who suddenly realises that he's into guys, or one guy in particular, would probably be seen by others as having "magically shifted" his orientation, if he really has never shown any indication of being something other than straight.

And such people might later on realise that they're really more attracted to the same gender, and not interested in the opposite sex at all anymore. It doesn't mean that they have to be completely bisexual á la Isabela. 

[Carfax]

Zandilar wrote...

You're probably right about them being innately bisexual, but I contend that there are a lot of bisexuals out there not just passing as straight, but IDENTIFYING as straight as well. And it comes as a big surprise to them, when it turns out that they aren't. (MOST of them probably live out their lives as straight, without even ever realizing they're not! They'd be highly insulted if you tried to tell them they were anything other that straight too.)

I agree 100% with this.  But to add one other thing, it seems that most bisexuals have a stronger attraction to the opposite sex than the same sex, and therefore most of them probably identify as heterosexual as a result.

I'm kind of loathe to pull my personal experience into it, but... I identified as straight until I was 17, I'd only ever had relationships with guys to that point. Anyone looking in on my life at that point would have gone "huh, what?" and then "oh, she's bisexual"... And that's even what I thought at the time. It did come as a surprise to me, I certainly wasn't expecting it. I'd been perfectly happy with the guys (well, in the way teenagers are in their relationships, angst, breaking up, sex and all) - but it slowly dawned on me that it wasn't what I wanted, it took me a few more years (and a couple more failed relationships with guys) before it finally sank in that I'm a lesbian.

Honestly, based on what you've stated, I wouldn't identify you as a lesbian.  I'd identify you as bisexual, with a strong leaning towards women.

And this could possibly shift down the road again at another point in your life.  You could meet a guy that you fall head over heels with, and end up marrying him..

This has happened to several famous "lesbians" that I'm aware of; Joann Loulan being the most salient perhaps.  She was a "lesbian" for 20 years or so, then ended up with a guy.
 

I'm not saying I chose to be gay, I am saying that sexuality is not such a clear and cut issue, and it's about identity not just about what one is at a basic biological level. Otherwise, gay kids would universally come out as teenagers (during puberty), and that's simply not the case. Biology directs you one way, society another.

But for MOST people, sexuality is a clear and cut issue.  Most people aren't like you.  You were born with an innate bisexual disposition so sexual fluidity is a reality for you, but most other humans are born with a strong heterosexual disposition which does not change over time.

This last line was really not necessary, was it? Attack the argument, not the person making it.

Well my avatar is a lizard you know, so what did you expect

[Mad-Max90]

I just enjoy the hypocrisy of the argument going on, take a minute to read through and you will see, it's basically "What an ignorant jerk for wanting a company to pander to the larger demographic of gamers, but it's a great day when they cater to us!" no matter what spectrum of the argument your on, this is annoying, even if somebody brings up an alternative option to everybody being bi, you guys pull out the pitchforks and torches to brand them "gasp" a homophobe, get over yourselves the lot of you are to sensitive to make it through life without getting your underwear in a bunch every time somebody says something you don't agree with. Oh and if gaider has the time to defend that choice please defend your choice in writing a pieced together story with no plot or ending.

[Grestorn]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

I just enjoy the hypocrisy of the argument going on, take a minute to read through and you will see, it's basically "What an ignorant jerk for wanting a company to pander to the larger demographic of gamers, but it's a great day when they cater to us!" no matter what spectrum of the argument your on, this is annoying, even if somebody brings up an alternative option to everybody being bi, you guys pull out the pitchforks and torches to brand them "gasp" a homophobe, get over yourselves the lot of you are to sensitive to make it through life without getting your underwear in a bunch every time somebody says something you don't agree with. Oh and if gaider has the time to defend that choice please defend your choice in writing a pieced together story with no plot or ending.

Who the hell is saying that someone is a jerk for wanting a company to the larger demographic of gamers?!

You can and should have as many straight relationships in this game or anywhere else, as you want.

And the matter of the fact is, that there is no NPC in either DA:O or DA:2 (as far as I know) who you can ONLY have a gay relationship with. And noone even asked for that, at least not in this thread. So I don't really see your point at all.

Sorry, but you're claim is just made up. Which says a lot about you, it seems you're just looking for a reason to despise people who are different than you. Talk about hypocrisy.

Modifié par Grestorn, 31 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[Carfax]

Grestorn wrote...

Well, you're both right.

The truth is, that only very few people are really absolutely straight or gay. Most people have a more or less pronounced affection for both genders.

I profoundly disagree with this statement.

Every time I have this discussion with LGBT people, they always try to make the case that most people aren't heterosexual or homosexual, but somewhere in between on the Kinsey scale.

Just based on circumstantial evidence, this can easily be shown to be incorrect. 

For example, throughout History homosexuality has at the very least, been seen as controversial, to being viewed as an unnatural abomination.   In other words, it's never been on the same level as heterosexuality in terms of it's acceptance.

Even in Civilizations like Ancient Greece that had an affinity for same sex behaviour, there were certain rules that governed the behaviour.  And even to this day, there is not complete acceptance, and perhaps there never will be.

With that said, how can anyone say that "few people are really absolutely straight?"  

From what I've read on human sexuality, this is how I'd break it down.  Approximately 80% of the human species is firmly heterosexual.  Of the remaining 20%, 15% are innately bisexual, but with a strong disposition towards the opposite sex and would probably view themselves as being "straight" if asked.  Of the remaining 5%, 4% are also innately bisexual, but with a strong disposition towards the same sex and would classify themselves as gay if asked, though they are truly bisexual.  The remaining 1% are for all intensive purposes, exclusively gay,  true bisexual (meaning they have absolutely no preference for either gender) and asexual. 

I lived a straight life for many years, I was even married to a woman. Even though I was always attracted to men, but I didn't want to accept that for myself, instead I actively shut that thought out of my life.

I think on my scale above, I'd say I'm arround 70. It took me a long, long time to accept that I'm gay and that I want to live a gay life instead of a lie.

Still, even though I can have sex with a woman, I never thought of myself as being bisexual.

It sounds to me like you're bi with a strong disposition towards the same sex.  Most gay people are like this I'd wager.

The amount of exclusively gay people has to be very small; less than 1%.

Modifié par Carfax, 31 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[Mad-Max90]

I am openly bi, but please continue your argument, it's rather fun to read, oh and see what I mean your too sensitive if everybody would just relax, things would roll a lot smoother, oh and if you really want to grasp at straws you won't find any saying you shouldn't have an equal amount of relationships in the game now did I, you were just quick to prove a couple of my points.

[Grestorn]

Carfax wrote...

Grestorn wrote...

Well, you're both right.

The truth is, that only very few people are really absolutely straight or gay. Most people have a more or less pronounced affection for both genders.

I profoundly disagree with this statement.

Every time I have this discussion with LGBT people, they always try to make the case that most people aren't heterosexual or homosexual, but somewhere in between on the Kinsey scale.

Just based on circumstantial evidence, this can easily be shown to be incorrect. 

Well, there's no objective way to measure someones "gayness" or sexual preference. So neither Kinsey, nor you or myself can definitley say who's right and who's wrong here.

But see almost any other genetical predisposition, like hair color, size etc. They are always distributed in a gaussian form. Of course there are genetical defects which are either their or not, but I think you'll agree that the sexual preference is nothing like that, if it were, we'd only have people who are 100% straight or 100% gay.

For example, throughout History homosexuality has at the very least, been seen as controversial, to being viewed as an unnatural abomination.   In other words, it's never been on the same level as heterosexuality in terms of it's acceptance.

That's not really true (there have been many societies where gay relationships were assumed to be perfectly normal), but even if it were, what does that mean to my argument? Only because something is not accepted as being normal, does that mean that it doesn't exist or can't be true?

There was a time where being black was not accepted as being normal. Would you say that the skin color is not distributed in some gaussian form (depending on people's parents of course)?

Even in Civilizations like Ancient Greece that had an affinity for same sex behaviour, there were certain rules that governed the behaviour.  And even to this day, there is not complete acceptance, and perhaps there never will be.

Where are you going at? That all sounds like you have a problem with gayness being accepted in society. If so, then just say so, so we can see where you're actually standing.

I still fail to see what relevance that has to the discussion wether gayness bisexuality is not an absolute trait someone has or doesn't have, or whether it something everyone has to certain degree - which by definition also includes that some people have it to a miniscule degree, which allows you to be sure that your practically 100% straight, if you need that insurance to feel comfortable.

With that said, how can anyone say that "few people are really absolutely straight?"  

From what I've read on human sexuality, this is how I'd break it down.  Approximately 80% of the human species is firmly heterosexual.  Of the remaining 20%, 15% are innately bisexual, but with a strong disposition towards the opposite sex and would probably view themselves as being "straight" if asked.  Of the remaining 5%, 4% are also innately bisexual, but with a strong disposition towards the same sex and would classify themselves as gay if asked, though they are truly bisexual.  The remaining 1% are for all intensive purposes, exclusively gay. 

Well, isn't that more or less the same as I said?

Maybe you should just read again what I wrote and try to understand it, before you say that you disagree.

I lived a straight life for many years, I was even married to a woman. Even though I was always attracted to men, but I didn't want to accept that for myself, instead I actively shut that thought out of my life.

I think on my scale above, I'd say I'm arround 70. It took me a long, long time to accept that I'm gay and that I want to live a gay life instead of a lie.

Still, even though I can have sex with a woman, I never thought of myself as being bisexual.

It sounds to me like you're bi with a strong disposition towards the same sex.  Most gay people are like this I'd wager.

Yes, exactly what I wrote. But I still don't consider myself as being bisexual. I could live a bisexual life, but I chose not to. Additionally, women just don't attract me that much, and since I accepted being gay, I don't see any reason to force the issue.

[MaximusPhoenix]

Carfax wrote...


The amount of exclusively gay people has to be very small; less than 1%.

no.

cite your sources.

[Zandilar]

Carfax wrote...
I agree 100% with this.  But to add one other thing, it seems that most bisexuals have a stronger attraction to the opposite sex than the same sex, and therefore most of them probably identify as heterosexual as a result.

Bisexuals can lean either way, of course, but the reason most bisexuals seem to have a stronger attraction towards people of the opposite sex is simply because society expects things to be that way. Society is very biased towards heterosexuality, and homosexuality is actively persecuted in many places in the world, and passivly so in most of the rest of the world. Things are simpler and easier just to go with the heteronormative flow, less hassles that way. It would be very interesting indeed to see what society would be like without the persecution of and stigma attached to being gay.

Honestly, based on what you've stated, I wouldn't identify you as a lesbian.  I'd identify you as bisexual, with a strong leaning towards women.

And this could possibly shift down the road again at another point in your life.  You could meet a guy that you fall head over heels with, and end up marrying him..

This has happened to several famous "lesbians" that I'm aware of; Joann Loulan being the most salient perhaps.  She was a "lesbian" for 20 years or so, then ended up with a guy.

I can see why you might see me that way, but the important thing here is to draw a distinction between actual orientation and IDENTITY. If I am bisexual, I'm one of those who lean strongly towards the same sex as far as attraction goes.  But that's all I'm going to say, don't want to draw too much more of my real life into here. (*sighs* You are probably right, and I'm probably in denial. I do still find some men attractive (and to a man they're all "pretty" men), but on the whole, I'm mostly attracted to women hence why I identify as lesbian.)
 

But for MOST people, sexuality is a clear and cut issue.  Most people aren't like you.  You were born with an innate bisexual disposition so sexual fluidity is a reality for you, but most other humans are born with a strong heterosexual disposition which does not change over time.

I think part of the reason why it is such a clear and cut issue for some people is simply because it's far easier to be heterosexual. So, every little same sex impulse gets squished down, ignored, or read as something else. I agree that there are some people who probably never feel these same sex impulses, but I still think that most people have had these kinds of thoughts and impulses at various times in their life. I'm guessing the most common reaction to them is denial. Call me crazy.

Well my avatar is a lizard you know, so what did you expect

Lizartroll? *adjusts her liberal spectacles* /tophat

[Mad-Max90]

To Maximus, maybe you should do a little research and you will see worldwide he is not far off it's around .5 to 5% not as much as the average person thinks

[AlexMBrennan]

throughout History

That's a not a good argument - e.g. do you believe that medieval medicine is better than modern treatments? In any case I think you're wrong about ancient history. Furthermore history just tells us what people wrote down - which may or may not be the truth given that homosexuality was frequently illegal.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 31 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[MaximusPhoenix]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

To Maximus, maybe you should do a little research and you will see worldwide he is not far off it's around .5 to 5% not as much as the average person thinks

I've researched this many of times in the past, and depending on the study, the demographics and survery selection very greatly depending on what data you are looking at; not to mention the the year(s) it was collected.

It makes my balls itch when people spew random number and percentages without knowing half of what they speak of or how to do proper non-biased research.

Anyways, regardless of %, people need to grow up and relax, as so many on these forums have stated already. Homosexuals are not going to eat your babies and summon satin to do their bidding.

[Carfax]

Grestorn wrote...

That's not really true (there have been many societies where gay relationships were assumed to be perfectly normal), but even if it were, what does that mean to my argument? Only because something is not accepted as being normal, does that mean that it doesn't exist or can't be true?

And what Societies were these? 

And what it means to your arguement, is that if most people aren't truly straight, then why has there been such hostility towards homosexuality throughout the ages?

Where are you going at? That all sounds like you have a problem with gayness being accepted in society. If so, then just say so, so we can see where you're actually standing.

What I'm getting at, is that homosexuality has typically been viewed with suspicion and contempt throughout human history.

Now if most people aren't heterosexual, then why has there been such widespread outrage and disgust for homosexuality; even in pre Christian civilizations.

Well, isn't that more or less the same as I said?

Maybe you should just read again what I wrote and try to understand it, before you say that you disagree.

No I don't think we're saying the same thing.  It seems like you're blurring the lines between sexual behaviour, and sexual orientation.  Sexual orientation is something that you're born with, where as sexual behaviour can be influenced by environment and other external factors.

[Mad-Max90]

Again your telling a cucumber to relax all while your breathing into a paper bag just trying to finish your angry statement, I advise you remain calm, you're coming off as a bit pretentious putting words in others mouths because you read something that didn't appeal to you. Shame shame

[MaximusPhoenix]

Carfax wrote...

then why has there been such hostility towards homosexuality throughout the ages?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say religion.....
parents educate their children about religion
children grow up to do the same
vicious cycle repeats, to a degree.

Modifié par MaximusPhoenix, 31 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[Carfax]

MaximusPhoenix wrote...

no.

cite your sources.

I never claimed to have any sources on that matter.  It was a "guesstimate" based on what I've seen and read..

Most gay people are in fact bisexual (from an orientation standpoint), but with a strong leaning towards the same sex.

Exclusively gay people are a rarity, much like true bisexuals.

[MaximusPhoenix]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Again your telling a cucumber to relax all while your breathing into a paper bag just trying to finish your angry statement, I advise you remain calm, you're coming off as a bit pretentious putting words in others mouths because you read something that didn't appeal to you. Shame shame

angry? who is putting words in who's mouth now.

my statement is not even directed at any one person in this thread. This whole forum has seemed like it's turned 3 ways from Sunday anyways.

[The_FenixV]

Carfax wrote...

Grestorn wrote...

That's not really true (there have been many societies where gay relationships were assumed to be perfectly normal), but even if it were, what does that mean to my argument? Only because something is not accepted as being normal, does that mean that it doesn't exist or can't be true?

And what Societies were these? 

And what it means to your arguement, is that if most people aren't truly straight, then why has there been such hostility towards homosexuality throughout the ages?

.

I believe the society he is mentioning is Ancient Greece. Spartan men slept with other men, though it wasn't really seen as homosexuality back in the days, I guess they were more comfortable back then with what they were doing compared to this time. 

[MaximusPhoenix]

Carfax wrote...

MaximusPhoenix wrote...

no.

cite your sources.

I never claimed to have any sources on that matter.  It was a "guesstimate" based on what I've seen and read..

Most gay people are in fact bisexual (from an orientation standpoint), but with a strong leaning towards the same sex.

Exclusively gay people are a rarity, much like true bisexuals.

Every gay person I know has been and is fully gay, not most bisexual.

The only thing I agree with there is that a true bisexual is rare that likes both men and women equally

[AlexMBrennan]

What I'm getting at, is that homosexuality has typically been viewed with suspicion and contempt throughout human history.

Now if most people aren't heterosexual, then why has there been such widespread outrage and disgust for homosexuality; even in pre Christian civilizations.

IMHO because humans love to hate other people. If there's no reason then they'll just invent one. Maybe they just didn't know any better. Or maybe because exclusively heterosexual unions were required to keep the population stable due to higher general mortality. Or maybe it was caused by some other historical event/condition/whatever that is no longer relevant. Seriously, why do you believe that tradition is always better just because it's traditional?

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 31 mars 2011 - 08:30 .