387 réponses à ce sujet

[Mad-Max90]

Religion only gets you so far into the whole gay/bi thing because even before religion, it was frowned upon because to be frank it's not productive towards society or nature for that mater to be exclusively gay, if you didn't add anything then what good were you? Not saying this applies now, just stating a bit of the obvious here, and now time to be marked a homophobe by somebody for producing a logical argument

[MaximusPhoenix]

The_FenixV wrote...



I believe the society he is mentioning is Ancient Greece. Spartan men slept with other men, though it wasn't really seen as homosexuality back in the days, I guess they were more comfortable back then with what they were doing compared to this time. 

My history may be off, but I believe they thought that if they were to love another man or men, and be in a loving relationship, it would make them fight harder with better motivation to win.

[Mad-Max90]

Right..after you quote my statement then express your anger towards it, suddenly I'm putting words in your mouth, by saying your angry, now that is funny

[MaximusPhoenix]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

IMHO because humans love to hate other people. If there's no reason then they'll just invent one. Maybe they just didn't know any better. Or maybe because exclusively heterosexual unions were required to keep the population stable due to higher general mortality. Or maybe it was caused by some other historical event/condition/whatever that is no longer relevant. Seriously, why do you believe that tradition is always better just because it's traditional?

^

Modifié par MaximusPhoenix, 31 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[Mad-Max90]

Maybe it's "better" because there is at least a product being created, another living being, now I don't know but if nature really intended for us to be bi we wouldn't be nearly as advanced as we are today, lack of reproduction. But now that i said better than, simply because you worded it that way, I'm going to be labeled

[Carfax]

Zandilar wrote...
Bisexuals can lean either way, of course, but the reason most bisexuals seem to have a stronger attraction towards people of the opposite sex is simply because society expects things to be that way. Society is very biased towards heterosexuality, and homosexuality is actively persecuted in many places in the world, and passivly so in most of the rest of the world. Things are simpler and easier just to go with the heteronormative flow, less hassles that way. It would be very interesting indeed to see what society would be like without the persecution of and stigma attached to being gay.

So you think it's all due to Social conditioning?  Some of it is definitely, but don't underestimate the biological component.

Humans are sexually reproducing creatures, and the vast majority of us are attracted to the opposite sex.  WIth that said, why would it be a stretch to think that most bisexuals are attracted more so to the opposite sex, than the same sex for reasons other than just social conditioning?

*sighs* You are probably right, and I'm probably in denial. I do still find some men attractive (and to a man they're all "pretty" men), but on the whole, I'm mostly attracted to women hence why I identify as lesbian.)

LOL don't worry you're not the only one..  As myself and others have stated, most gay people are just like you, and choose to IDENTIFY as gay or lesbian despite their innate bisexuality.

So basically, terms like gay or lesbian are more indicative of sexual behaviour, rather than sexual orientation.
 

I think part of the reason why it is such a clear and cut issue for some people is simply because it's far easier to be heterosexual. So, every little same sex impulse gets squished down, ignored, or read as something else. I agree that there are some people who probably never feel these same sex impulses, but I still think that most people have had these kinds of thoughts and impulses at various times in their life. I'm guessing the most common reaction to them is denial. Call me crazy.

No I don't think you're crazy.  There is a time in our life when our sexuality is emerging, and depending on the circumstances, could lead to thoughts (and action) of same sex behaviour. 

For example, there was a time in my own life where I was in an all boys school during my youth, and I did have a few crushes on a number of other boys.  But as soon as I was removed from that environment and sent to another school where there were plenty of girls, my innate heterosexual inclination took over permanently, and I've never looked back..

Thats a good example of how sexuality can be influenced by environmental factors. I suppose what this says about us is that we are all sexual beings, and that sexual energy can be channeled haphazardly at times..

[Carfax]

MaximusPhoenix wrote...

I've researched this many of times in the past, and depending on the study, the demographics and survery selection very greatly depending on what data you are looking at; not to mention the the year(s) it was collected.

It makes my balls itch when people spew random number and percentages without knowing half of what they speak of or how to do proper non-biased research. 

You're not the only one that has researched this you know.  Most demographic studies on LGBT are tainted by bias to one degree or another.  For example, conducting a demographics study on the gay population in a major city will always yield higher results, because gays tend to congregate in those areas.

It's for this reason why I view the CNN exit polls as the most accurate reflection of the amount of LGBT in our Society (4%), because the exit polls constitute a much broader segment of the greater population.

[Carfax]

The_FenixV wrote...

I believe the society he is mentioning is Ancient Greece. Spartan men slept with other men, though it wasn't really seen as homosexuality back in the days, I guess they were more comfortable back then with what they were doing compared to this time. 

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece is blown way out of proportion.  The way some people describe it, makes you wonder how that Civilization managed to survive, considering there was so much homosexuality occuring.

Anyway, I don't know much about Sparta, but I do know that in Ancient Greece (Athens to be precise), homosexuality between two adult consenting men was actually frowned upon..

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece seemed confined mostly to the aristorcratic class, and revolved mostly around pederasty; or boy love.  And there were plenty of rules involved as well.

Ancient Rome had a much harsher view of homosexuality as well, depending on the time frame.  For example, there was a law named Lex Scantinia that prescribed the death penalty to men who had sex with underage free born boys, and men who had sex with other free born men.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Scantinia

Modifié par Carfax, 31 mars 2011 - 09:14 .

[Carfax]

MaximusPhoenix wrote...

Every gay person I know has been and is fully gay, not most bisexual.

The only thing I agree with there is that a true bisexual is rare that likes both men and women equally

Do you deny that most gay people have had sexual contact with the opposite sex? 

And do you realize that a few "gay" people in this thread have stated that they are in fact bisexual, but choose to identify as gay?

[Grestorn]

Carfax wrote...

MaximusPhoenix wrote...

I've researched this many of times in the past, and depending on the study, the demographics and survery selection very greatly depending on what data you are looking at; not to mention the the year(s) it was collected.

It makes my balls itch when people spew random number and percentages without knowing half of what they speak of or how to do proper non-biased research. 

You're not the only one that has researched this you know.  Most demographic studies on LGBT are tainted by bias to one degree or another.  For example, conducting a demographics study on the gay population in a major city will always yield higher results, because gays tend to congregate in those areas.

On the other hand, gay people in rural areas tend to be trained to hide themselves or even suppress and ignore their homosexuality. And they would shy away od admitting to someone on the phone or in person that they might be gay.

This argument works both ways.

As I've said, there is no objective way to measure this. But the rate of people who call themselves homosexual or bisexual is overall in the area between 5 to 10%. So it can be assumed that the actual number is certainly not lower than that but it would probably - if every person would stand by their sexuality with no remorse, guilt or uncomfort - be significantly higher. So my guess is that around 10% of the population is actually gay or has at least had some phantasies about gay sex.

Modifié par Grestorn, 31 mars 2011 - 09:18 .

[Grestorn]

Carfax wrote...

And do you realize that a few "gay" people in this thread have stated that they are in fact bisexual, but choose to identify as gay?

If you define "bisexual" as "being able to have sex with either gender", then you might be correct. But then, almost everyone on this planet could be seen as bisexual (including yourself, as you already admitted).

But in my view, bisexual has a different meaning. It means that you like to have sex with either gender about equally. That you don't have a clear preference whether you like men or women.

Someone who is married but can't live without having sex with his own gender is usually not really bisexual. He or she's gay, but doesn't want to admit it (to him/herself and to society). If he or she were really bi, he could live without "the other" sex.

Modifié par Grestorn, 31 mars 2011 - 09:19 .

[Carfax]

Grestorn wrote...

On the other hand, gay people in rural areas tend to be trained to hide themselves or even suppress and ignore their homosexuality. And they would shy away of telling someone on the phone or in someone in person that they might be gay.

This argument works both ways.

As I've said, there is no objective way to measure this. But the rate of people who call themselves homosexual or bisexual is overall in the area between 5 t0 10%. So it can be assumed that the actual number is certainly not lower than that but probably - if every person would stand by their sexuality with no remorse, guilt or uncomfort - it would be significantly higher. So my guess is that around 10% of the population is actually gay or has at least had some phantasies about gay sex.

I'd say it's more like 4%.  10% is too high, unless you count bisexuals with a strong disposition towards heterosexual behaviour; and most of these people probably identify themselves as straight.

[Carfax]

Grestorn wrote...
But in my view, bisexual has a different meaning. It means that you like to have sex with either gender about equally. That you don't have a clear preference whether you like men or women.

Those kind of people I refer to as "true bisexuals," and they are probably more rare than exclusively gay people.

A typical bisexual on the other hand usually does have a preference for one gender over the other, mostly the opposite sex.

Someone who is married but can't live without having sex with his own gender is usually not really bisexual. He or she's gay, but doesn't want to admit it (to him/herself and to society). If he or she were really bi, he could live without "the other" sex.

I don't know if I could say they were gay, if gay meant they had an EXCLUSIVE attraction to the same sex.  It could just mean that their attraction to the same sex was much more powerful than their attraction to the opposite sex.

They are still inherently bisexual, but with a strong bias to the same sex.

[FlintlockJazz]

The problem I have is that BioWare makes these unattractive characters (both in looks and personality) of both genders and then force me to have to endure their constant advances. My characters have standards, they don't want to be constantly harassed by munters regardless of genders all the fricking time! I mean, is my character the last single dude left in the universe? Did my character unknowingly spray on some Lynx deodorant? Leliana, my female dwarf is busy banging Alistair, why don't you go and bang Zevran if you're that hard up?

I mean, sweet jesus, am I playing a japanese dating sim or something? I know you can turn them down, but when you're just trying to be friendly and get to know someone should not be such a fricking minefield! And when they stop talking when they get rejected, sheesh...

[Hannibal218]

Have any of you ever been exposed to Maslowe's Hierarchy of Needs? The highest level of the hierarchy is Self-Actualization, this is the stage in which an individual decides who and what he wants to be and strives to become it. Self-Actualization is marked by rejecting conventional morality and deciding for yourself what is right and what is wrong as well as by forgetting your prejudices and accepting what is.

I bring this up because self-actualization is a state that only a small fractions of human beings ever achieve. Until that point you accept whatever society tells you is right or wrong and don't think for yourself. We just so happen live in a society where homophobic men set up rules against homosexuality because it was alien enough to make them uncomfortable.

[Zandilar]

Carfax wrote...

So you think it's all due to Social conditioning?  Some of it is definitely, but don't underestimate the biological component.

No, I don't think it's all social conditioning, because someone who is mostly straight will be straight, and someone who is mostly homosexual will be homosexual. But as a whole, humanity is lazy. When a person is attracted to both genders, they might just choose to take the path of least resistance, and in our modern society right now the least resistance is heterosexual.

Humans are sexually reproducing creatures, and the vast majority of us are attracted to the opposite sex.  WIth that said, why would it be a stretch to think that most bisexuals are attracted more so to the opposite sex, than the same sex for reasons other than just social conditioning?

Most animals are sexually reproducing creatures. Check out the Bonobo for an example of a species where casual sex between members of the same gender occurs all the time as part of their social interaction. They, along with chimps, are among our closest cousins. Being gay does not preclude one from reproducing either, especially considering that ****** sapiens are a thinking technologically advanced tool using species. If you were to believe MSM, most (if not all) Lesbians exist solely to reproduce. (Yes, that is kind of a joke right there, but many of us are tired of all the "lesbian wants to get pregnant" storylines that get air time on TV.)

LOL don't worry you're not the only one..  As myself and others have stated, most gay people are just like you, and choose to IDENTIFY as gay or lesbian despite their innate bisexuality.

So basically, terms like gay or lesbian are more indicative of sexual behaviour, rather than sexual orientation.

That is quite true. I think I said in another thread somewhere, they're just labels. I once had a(n empty, clean) Vegemite jar in which I stored my pens and pencils. It still had its label, but I don't think anyone would have tried to tell me those pens and pencils were, in fact, Vegemite. 

Those companions that seem straight or gay depending on how you play your Hawke? They're just Hawke-sexual. (Everyone's gay for Marian/Everyone's gay for Garrett?)
 

No I don't think you're crazy.  There is a time in our life when our sexuality is emerging, and depending on the circumstances, could lead to thoughts (and action) of same sex behaviour.

If this is true (especially about the action bit), does this not indicate latent bisexuality in people who later identify as straight?
 

For example, there was a time in my own life where I was in an all boys school during my youth, and I did have a few crushes on a number of other boys.  But as soon as I was removed from that environment and sent to another school where there were plenty of girls, my innate heterosexual inclination took over permanently, and I've never looked back..

But you were attracted to those boys, no? Wouldn't that indicate to you a latent bisexual leaning, if this was someone else telling you about it?

Thats a good example of how sexuality can be influenced by environmental factors. I suppose what this says about us is that we are all sexual beings, and that sexual energy can be channeled haphazardly at times..

Indeed. No disagreement here.

[FlintlockJazz]

You know what would be awesome? To have the player have to make the first move, and to actually get shot down if they are not the kind of person the LI is interested in. To be challenging.

I have a dream, that my male machismo warrior will pursue a female LI only to discover that she is only interested in girls, but not before she leads him on in order to get a new pair of boots from him before walking all over him with her female lover, causing him to run crying into the arms of the gay LI who is easy and gives him an STD that gives a penalty to combat as a result! Join me in my quest to see this dream fulfilled my brethren! Onwards, my brethren! Let this be known forever as Flash Gordon's Day!

I would love a Flash Gordon RPG. Needs to be done!

[Grestorn]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

You know what would be awesome? To have the player have to make the first move, and to actually get shot down if they are not the kind of person the LI is interested in. To be challenging.

But that's already happening in DA:2. 

[FlintlockJazz]

Grestorn wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

You know what would be awesome? To have the player have to make the first move, and to actually get shot down if they are not the kind of person the LI is interested in. To be challenging.

But that's already happening in DA:2. 

So you're saying that you get turned down if you're a man and the LI isn't interested in men?

[Grestorn]

You get turned down by Sebastian if you're a man and everyone gets turned down by Avaline (or whatever she's called) if I'm not mistaken.

[Volus Warlord]

Oh boy.

If Bioware keeps it up, I'll probably stop buying their games.

"John" Shepard will turn into this guy:


He much of his credibility as an "action hero" when he decided to "expand his fanbase." Haha! Or at least he did around where I live. I'm sure some Canadien/European people worship him for it (you guys really love the gays for some reason). But whenever he tries to act tough or tries to go after a girl I just laugh, I simply cannot take his acting seriously.

And that is the future of Bioware.. I will not be able to take their lore seriously if I know all their games are just pawns for the so-called "gay-rights" movement. The stories they tell are what makes the games glow, as the combat is unexceptional, the environments are becoming horrifically monotonous, and the music is going downhill.

I'm surprised half the people in Bioware games aren't speaking with a lisp yet. Is this whole gay nonsense a plea for attention, knowing that their game quality has already begun a downward spiral?

[FlintlockJazz]

Grestorn wrote...

You get turned down by Sebastian if you're a man and everyone gets turned down by Avaline (or whatever she's called) if I'm not mistaken.

All the standard LIs are bisexual in that they go for Hawke regardless of gender.  Aveline is not an LI and Sebastian is dlc and will romance you whether you are friends or rivals still, it's not just gender preference I'm talking here (take a look at DAO or ME2 to see that Bioware have at least done that before).  I'm talking about a character that will never romance you if you play a dwarf, or don't have enough strength, or not a mage, or have not been playing the game as someone who they would be attracted to such as if you have been playing as a sarcastic and witty guy they may find you repulsive.  That's what I'm after, an LI that can find my character repulsive and unattractive and not designed to be romanceable if I 'make all the right choices'.

[Grestorn]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Oh boy.
...
I'm surprised half the people in Bioware games aren't speaking with a lisp yet. Is this whole gay nonsense a plea for attention, knowing that their game quality has already begun a downward spiral?

Wow...

Some people might think it takes a lot of courage to admit being gay in public. But to openly admit this kind of stupidity must be much harder.

Modifié par Grestorn, 31 mars 2011 - 01:48 .

[KenKenpachi]

MaximusPhoenix wrote...

The_FenixV wrote...



I believe the society he is mentioning is Ancient Greece. Spartan men slept with other men, though it wasn't really seen as homosexuality back in the days, I guess they were more comfortable back then with what they were doing compared to this time. 

My history may be off, but I believe they thought that if they were to love another man or men, and be in a loving relationship, it would make them fight harder with better motivation to win.

In some societies that was not the case. In Mongolia it was punishable by death, same with most Barbarian peoples of the North, Goths, Visagoths, Norman's, Huns, etc. And do note in the case of Greece Modern Greece is far larger than its aceint counterpart, short of under the rule of Alexander the Great. Also note that the Romans wiped out the Spartans, and The Sacred Band didn't last much longer after the death of its leader, and won most of its battles by fighting unorthadoxidly for the time. It was equally to me doing a drive by with a Machine Gun in WW1.  Sexuality had little to do with making them soldiers, in fact some armies that adopted that view, would fall into route when the supply chain or the lovers unit was in danger. 

 Why people use Greece as a model for social and imperial expansion is beyond me, as well they pretty much never matterd, and if not for mythological texts in the west would not rank very highly in the concepts of Empires or Society, given how often the city states were at each others throats. And the only major thing they gave was Democracy, which gee resulted in how many civil wars there? Acient Greece always was, or was close to being a failed state or a basket case short of a few periods of stability.

Anyways if this game truly forced homosexuality on others I might take offense at it, as I'm not homosexual or bi, but in DA:2 that isn't the case. Not once was I hit on by my male counter parts, or by Issy. If you go and flirt with a gay guy as a man, don't be surprised if he wants in your pants. Its the same as a guy hitting on a loose woman. Its the same. Its no conspiracy or plot to turn us all gay, or all the gays straiight as a woman playing and flirting with a man can be hit on. Its simple won't no romance, then don't flirt, or don't pick the ultra good responses. Rivalry can play out well with a number of characters in fact.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 31 mars 2011 - 02:07 .

[Moondoggie]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

All the standard LIs are bisexual in that they go for Hawke regardless of gender.  Aveline is not an LI and Sebastian is dlc and will romance you whether you are friends or rivals still, it's not just gender preference I'm talking here (take a look at DAO or ME2 to see that Bioware have at least done that before).  I'm talking about a character that will never romance you if you play a dwarf, or don't have enough strength, or not a mage, or have not been playing the game as someone who they would be attracted to such as if you have been playing as a sarcastic and witty guy they may find you repulsive.  That's what I'm after, an LI that can find my character repulsive and unattractive and not designed to be romanceable if I 'make all the right choices'.

I think Bioware just made all romancable characters universal to avoid the tons of inevitable whinging that happens when people find out they can't romance a character "I wanted to have guy on guy sexy time with Kaiden! You suck Bioware!"  And you get the idea. In the case of DAO it hardly mattered anyways since people just made mods that made all character romances universal XD I guess people really do want what they can't have.