387 réponses à ce sujet

[MaximusPhoenix]

ostemanden wrote...

22nd MadJack wrote...

ostemanden wrote...
Considering that homosexuality is a deviance, something not normal.
 

Considering Homosexuality has existed alongside Heterosexuality since the dawn of man, I'd consider it quite normal.

Conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal; "serve wine at normal room temperature"; "normal diplomatic relations"; "normal working hours"; "normal word order"; "normal curiosity"; "the normal course of events"

Hence, homosexuality will never be considered normal, untill the majority of the worlds population is homosexual. Just because there has always been people who deviated from the norm, does not make that deviance normal.

Actually there is a good Way to avoid this: Don´t read the Threads! Or did a bad bad ****** take ur Head, stuck something between ur eyelids, and sat u before ur computer, showing u the hatred Posts?? No? So why are u trolling around then?

You don´t seem to know, but Homos are human, like you and me, and they have the same rights to express their feelings about games and every other Topic here. 

If you can´t accept that fact, it´s YOU who is wrong here, not the Homosexuals...

Not really, because this is a gaming forum for gamers, not a sexual oriented forum about homosexuality, therefore when I come to this forum, I expect moderation and a certain code of conduct. For instance I expect this forum to be free from people hereunder homosexuals, defending their sexual rights, and flaunting their orientation in my face. In addition I also expect any life story about once private sexual preference/orientation, to be deleted from this forum. 

Rivalry +125
Kiss me you fool!!

Never!

Oh guyz, pls stop being so self-absorbed, If you read thru his post you'd realize that starting another debate (which his thread is turning into) isn't his original intent. He wanted to share his RL experience and what Bioware's action meant to him as an individual. How gay romance was handled is irrelevant and should be taken to the other existing debate threads. What we need is more encouragement for the OP, so that he can get offline reaffirmed that save for a few trolls, the vast majority of us out there do not judge ppl like him for what they are.

And if you are one of those said trolls, then you, yes you, messere, are a terrible person.

No he wanted to post his own sexual experience on a forum for games. He is now experiencing the consequence of this.
I am solely judging him for his use of medium, not his sexual orientation, I could not care less about what he likes to use his intestines for! 

I call absolute BS on your last comment, given the nature of your previous post.

[ObserverStatus]

[MaximusPhoenix]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

MaximusPhoenix wrote...

ostemanden wrote...

Considering that homosexuality is a deviance, something not normal. I find it offensive that I have to be confronted by it all the time. I am not marching down to homosexual bars/meeting places and insisting on them listening to me, yet I feel forced to listen to all your homosexual crap, that you are constantly spewing.
Am I offended by the choice in game to have a homosexual relationship?
Absolutely not!

I am offended by the real life homosexuals flaunting their sexuality all over the place, now even gaming forums.

GTFO please.

Wow, I'm not even going to touch this with a 15 foot pole, your post is just way too easy to flame.

Now for my 3rd post of the evening. He has a point to a certain extent. I can get how people want to crusade for a issue they care about and that's all fine. But when people get all in your face about it and try to force it on you that is what I disaproove of, which is kinda what is going on in DA.

His or her post had nothing to do with DA though.

And as many people have pointed out before, nothing is being forced on anyone in DA, gay or straight. All characters are pretty open about their sexuality, if someone has a problem with it, their topic should read "oh no! Sexuality is making its way into the gaming world!"

[MaximusPhoenix]

bobobo878 wrote...

I love your Westboro Baptist Church parody signature, haha, made me LOL

[MaximusPhoenix]

All I can say is get a room and keep it to yourself.

Not sure if you are referring to in game or IRL; but if it's in game, well, that's up to Bioware what they want to do with their games.

If you mean IRL, then no, I won't keep it to myself and get a room. I will walk down the street holding another guys hand if I want, just like heterosexuals do.

Maybe in your city, or town, people don't do that, but the rest of the world is not America either, and/or a smaller geographic area where doing something like that is forbidden.

[neppakyo]

MaximusPhoenix wrote...

All I can say is get a room and keep it to yourself.

Not sure if you are referring to in game or IRL; but if it's in game, well, that's up to Bioware what they want to do with their games.

If you mean IRL, then no, I won't keep it to myself and get a room. I will walk down the street holding another guys hand if I want, just like heterosexuals do.

Maybe in your city, or town, people don't do that, but the rest of the world is not America either, and/or a smaller geographic area where doing something like that is forbidden.

I dislike it when anyone does PSA (public show of affection) whether they're hetro or ******. As per topic, I don't mind it in games, DA2 just felt like they forced it more. Just an opinion, no offense.

[Viper371]

Why all the controversy?

There's no controversy among gamers.  There was a contreversy about ME1 on Fox News, IIRC, but I really don't care about them: not my country, not my problem.

I think what most gamers are saying is that romances are badly done.  Like many other aspects of the game.  But since it involves homosexuality, lots of people are calling fans "homophobes" because they don't like the way it's done.

[insert english swear word here], developpers seems to be clueless about what they missed.  Reading an interview with Mike Laidlaw on Gamespot, it really seems Bioware doesn't understand any of the criticism and is in fact believing they've done a splendid job pleasing to just about everyone.

Last time I saw someone this clueless was when George Lucas said Jar Jar Binks was one of the most loved characters of his new trilogy.

Romance is badly done.  Not because it has gay sex (not even explicit), not because there are bisexual characters, but because everyone is bisexual and there's simply no... nuances in how it's done.  Play a girl, play a guy, romance X, romance Y, it all feels the same.

[Grestorn]

neppakyo wrote...

I dislike it when anyone does PSA (public show of affection) whether they're hetro or ******. As per topic, I don't mind it in games, DA2 just felt like they forced it more. Just an opinion, no offense.

That includes holding your loved one's hand? If that's really your oppinion, then you're really leading a very poor life.

Is it ok for you, if two drinking buddies walk along with their arms around their shoulders? But it's not ok, if two loving ones (regardless of their gender) hold their hands? 

Or is it only offensive for you, if it's two guys?

My boyfriend doesn't dare to hold my hand in public, because he doesn't want to provoke people. I find that thought alone offensive, the idea you could provoke people just by holding someone's hand.

Anyone who thinks that two guys holding hands is provokative to himself, is most definitely homophobic.

Modifié par Grestorn, 28 mars 2011 - 07:13 .

[FedericoV]

colex91 wrote...

Why all the controversy? We are in 2011 now, gay people are here forever, have been here forever, and will always be...Get used to it. I appreciate everything Bioware did for "us", they gained a lot of respect from me. I hope they continue to create gay relationships in other games, not just fem-fem.

I have nothing against the fact that Bioware is very tolerant in their games on the issue of sexuality. Quite the contruary, I applaude them. For all the talk of being sell out to the xbox generation, their attitued toward sexuality should be proof enough that it's not true (I mean, try a multy shooter on the xbox live and you will see the world "gay" used as an offense on a regular basis sadly). 

But honestly I do not like how whey have approached the issue of sexuality in DA2. I have have nothing against Anders pushing the issue on me. It makes sense to have one charachter who acts in that way and that is bisexual. Even for Isabella, it makes sense because she is very free toward sexuality and it's consistent with how she was presented in DA:O. 

But having an entire cast of potential bisexual/gay LI cheapens the experience and make the charachters less interesting as LI. Lets' be honest: it's not a way to break barriers in the gaming world, but to cut corners (again, if they continue to cut corner they will ask 50 € in advance to begin the development of a game ). It's not a good way to approach the issue. And if they continue in that way, I will simply avoid to play their romances in the next games.

Really, I understand that games are expensive but you cannot make cuts on the sexuality of NPCs. I make an example, if you choose diplomatic option with Fenris or Anders (even if you had made clear that you are not interested or never used a romantic option) your Hawke have allways that "pls, kiss me" look on its face when he talks. Or like when he talks with Fenris about his past and the romantic music starts even if we are just friends.

So, I understand when people say that they felt  the issue was forced on them. But the point is not sexuality and tolerance. It's only a question of money and dev resources. So, long way short, is okay to have gay/bisexual NPCs. But not to have all the cast in such fashion just to cut corners. Every LI should feel unique, it's not realistic, it breaks the immersion and in many ways is even not a great way to show respect and attention to different sexuality. If you want to show respect to them, build an LI just for them. If it's not worth it in terms of audience and money, do not do it.

Modifié par FedericoV, 28 mars 2011 - 07:42 .

[Sabariel]

A lyrium-infused former slave, a Dalish exile, a pirate queen, and a possessed mage are not unique simply because they don't bash you in the face with their SET IN STONE SEXUALITY? Ooookay...

Modifié par Sabariel, 28 mars 2011 - 07:47 .

[Grestorn]

FedericoV wrote...
But having an entire cast of potential bisexual/gay LI cheapens the experience and make the charachters less interesting as LI.

You don't have to see it that way, i.e. like everyone is bi.

This is a virtual world. The beauty of a virtual world, compared to the real world, is that you can form it. You can change things if you don't like it.

That's what modders do all the time.

If I like Anders to be gay, well than he can be gay. If I, as a player, want him to be straight, well, than he can be this way, too.

BW chose to implement the world to react on the player. That includes that Anders is hitting on you if you give him a hint of yourself being interested in him first.

I don't see a problem with that and I don't see any character in DA as being bi (with the exception of Zevran who said himself that he's bisexual).

Modifié par Grestorn, 28 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[FedericoV]

Sabariel wrote...

A lyrium-infused former slave, a Dalish exile, a pirate queen, and a possessed mage are not unique simply because they don't bash you in the face with their SET IN STONE SEXUALITY at every turn? Ooookay...

It's not that they have to be set in stone. It's that it's unrealistic that you have a party where 3 out of 4 potential LIs are bisexual. And lets' assume that it's realistic and that it's not about the money (I mean, they have choose that way to cut corners on LIs), at least pay attention and use different animation/facial expression/background music when MY charachter is speaking with them. I mean, lets' assume that in an alternative universe 3 people out of 8 are bisexual. Let's assume that the decision is not made in the name of St. Money but for the love of tolerance and all that's good. But at least pay attention on how your charachter interact with them, especially on a cinematic experience like DA2.

Modifié par FedericoV, 28 mars 2011 - 07:53 .

[FedericoV]

Grestorn wrote...

You don't have to see it that way, i.e. like everyone is bi.

This is a virtual world. The beauty of a virtual world, compared to the real world, is that you can form it. You can change things if you don't like it.

Oh, no. BW makes storydriven games developed around charachters. Good storytelling and good charachters request internal consistency. The fact that the sexuality of those characthers react to the sexuality of mine, makes them virtual puppets with no personality and no sexuality at all. It does not improove the charachters or their romance, it cheapens them. They look SILLY because of it. Develop them as you want, but you are crippling those charachters.

And as I've said before, do as you like with romances, I can allways decide to avoid them (a position that I will consider if that's the trend). But if I'm talking with LI's npcs about the plot of the game to make some quest, take some loot, make a little bit of XP and advance the story, pay attention to the way MY charachter behave and use different animations. I don't want him to look like a potential LI for each charachter since the devs recycle animations/cinematic to cut some more fat from the game.

Modifié par FedericoV, 28 mars 2011 - 08:07 .

[Zandilar]

Let me make a comment about the "unrealistic to have 4 bisexual characters in the one party"...

Like calls to like. It's simple as that. We tend to gravitate to people who share the same interests, or are otherwise compatible in personality. If this wasn't the case, we'd all be very lonely indeed, and especially us homosexuals because "it's unrealistic to see more than one at a time". *rolls eyes*

ETA: Mr Gaider and I once had a short exchange about this back in the days of NWN. At the time he said that he thought the idea of simply making a LI bisexual (with minimal changes in the dialogue - just replacing every instance of one gender's pronoun with the other gender) was unrealistic. At the time I was annoyed, because representation of gay characters had been pretty poor to that point, but having thought about it over the years since, I have come to agree with him. A character should be built from the ground up with their sexuality being a part of them, because sexuality (like it or not) informs our view of the world (it's not the be all and end all of things that inform our point of view, but it is a part). No one has thought to ask the Devs if Anders was heterosexual from the word go - it may be that he wasn't, it might be his harping on women all the time might have been hiding his insecurity, or he simply might not have met the right man yet. As for Merrill and Fenris, they're elves. They might have an entirely different view of sexuality to everyone else... Unless the Devs say otherwise. Isabela, I'm sure everyone will agree, was designed from the ground up as bisexual.

Modifié par Zandilar, 28 mars 2011 - 08:18 .

[FedericoV]

Zandilar wrote...

Let me make a comment about the "unrealistic to have 4 bisexual characters in the one party"...

Like calls to like. It's simple as that. We tend to gravitate to people who share the same interests, or are otherwise compatible in personality. If this wasn't the case, we'd all be very lonely indeed, and especially us homosexuals because "it's unrealistic to see more than one at a time". *rolls eyes*

So, (in terms of internal consistency) they are deciding for me that Hawke is gay and/or bisexual.

Wich is a part of the issue of people saying "they are forcing me to be gay".

Modifié par FedericoV, 28 mars 2011 - 08:20 .

[FedericoV]

Zandilar wrote...
A character should be built from the ground up with their sexuality being a part of them, because sexuality (like it or not) informs our view of the world (it's not the be all and end all of things that inform our point of view, but it is a part).

Oh, I do agree on that one and that's an important part of the issue. The fact that the sexuality of potential LIs is allways open to interpretation because it depends on the sexuality of your Hawke, weaken those charachters. 

[MrTijger]

FedericoV wrote...

So, (in terms of internal consistency) they are deciding for me that Hawke is gay and/or bisexual.

Wich is a part of the issue of people saying "they are forcing me to be gay".

No, they are not, they are giving you the space to be whatever you want to be. I have no interest in Anders so I will not choose any reply with a heart in it. And I still got him to 100% friend before I killed him.

[Sabariel]

FedericoV wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

A lyrium-infused former slave, a Dalish exile, a pirate queen, and a possessed mage are not unique simply because they don't bash you in the face with their SET IN STONE SEXUALITY at every turn? Ooookay...

It's not that they have to be set in stone. It's that it's unrealistic that you have a party where 3 out of 4 potential LIs are bisexual. And lets' assume that it's realistic and that it's not about the money (I mean, they have choose that way to cut corners on LIs), at least pay attention and use different animation/facial expression/background music when MY charachter is speaking with them. I mean, lets' assume that in an alternative universe 3 people out of 8 are bisexual. Let's assume that the decision is not made in the name of St. Money but for the love of tolerance and all that's good. But at least pay attention on how your charachter interact with them, especially on a cinematic experience like DA2.

Isabela is the only one who comes across as blatantly bisexual. Merrill and Fenris are largely asexual unless you hit on them first. Anders comes across as gay if your a Dude Hawke and straight if you're a Lady Hawke so I guess you could put him in the bisexual category as well if you think he just doesn't chose to say, "Hi! I slept with dudes/ladies!" to Lady/Man Hawke's face.

The "it's unrealistic" argument doesn't really hold water with me since you can create a Hawke that goes against everything your LI stands for and cares about and they'll still fall for him/her.

Modifié par Sabariel, 28 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[Grestorn]

FedericoV wrote...

Grestorn wrote...

You don't have to see it that way, i.e. like everyone is bi.

This is a virtual world. The beauty of a virtual world, compared to the real world, is that you can form it. You can change things if you don't like it.

Oh, no. BW makes storydriven games developed around charachters. Good storytelling and good charachters request internal consistency. The fact that the sexuality of those characthers react to the sexuality of mine, makes them virtual puppets with no personality and no sexuality at all. It does not improove the charachters or their romance, it cheapens them. They look SILLY because of it. Develop them as you want, but you are crippling those charachters.

I agree in so far, that the characters have to be consistent within one playthrough. I don't want the character to change their behaviour or their sexual preference on a whim's notice. They have to be strongly modelled and motivated.

But I don't mind them to be different in each playthrough. Actually, if they could do that, it would mean a lot more fun for each playthrough. I realize that this would be extremely costly, especially today where you have to create voice tracks and elaborate animations. Back in the days of Baldur's Gate, that would have been much easier.

You can see this as "what if" scenarios, and there's nothing to be said against that.

And something else: Do you believe that you can immediately tell if someone is gay alone from his behaviour? Then think again. A big majoritiy of gay men and women are completely blending in with heterosexuals, at least in public. Think about it: 5 to 10% of all people are gay. So you meet them and speak with them every day, you have to, there's just no statistical way around that fact. Still, you don't realize that for most collegues, aquaintences or even friends. That should tell you immediately, that the average gay person DOESN'T behave so drastically different, that his sexuality would have to be obvious in a game like DA all the time.

FedericoV wrote...
And as I've said before, do as you like with romances, I can allways decide to avoid them (a position that I will consider if that's the trend).

With "them" you mean gay persons in general? You want to avoid them, not only regarding sex related issues but generally in your life?

I don't have to tell you that this is a very drastic display of homophobia. But again, you should be aware that you're dealing with homos every day without realizing it. Even one of your friends could be one of them hideous persons!

Modifié par Grestorn, 28 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[FedericoV]

Grestorn wrote...

FedericoV wrote...
And as I've said before, do as you like with romances, I can allways decide to avoid them (a position that I will consider if that's the trend).

With "them" you mean gay persons in general? You want to avoid them, not only regarding sex related issues but generally in your life?

I don't have to tell you that this is a very drastic display of homophobia. But again, you should be aware that you're dealing with homos every day without realizing it. Even one of your friends could be one of them hideous persons!

No, no. I mean "avoid romances and/or relation with NPCs who are potential LIs in Bioware games" . I have some very good friends and co-workers who are gay. I work in a industry that puts me everyday in contact with gay persons and I have not any issue working with them. Simply put, I do not like romances in videogames in general. They allways feel silly and akward. I'm only interested in them for what they bring to the story (Morrigain and Isabella are really intersting from that point of view).

But DA2 has reached new levels of akwardness and sillyness.

Because a) the sexual interest of NPCs is defined by your sexuality in many cases Potential LI allways act like actual LIs in every dialogue with them because they have recycled those dialogues c) your charachter acts like a lover (in terms of voice over and animation) if you choose the diplomatic option (and sometimes even the sarcastic one) allways because of the recycle issue and d) the entire cast of LI is made of bisexual charachter wich is silly and cheapens them.

[FedericoV]

MrTijger wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

So, (in terms of internal consistency) they are deciding for me that Hawke is gay and/or bisexual.

Wich is a part of the issue of people saying "they are forcing me to be gay".

No, they are not, they are giving you the space to be whatever you want to be. I have no interest in Anders so I will not choose any reply with a heart in it. And I still got him to 100% friend before I killed him.

Same thing but when I interact with him my charachter has that silly expression on his face and the diplomatic option allways have that "we two apostate lover against the rest of the world" tone.

[Grestorn]

Well, I don't see your point, honestly.

If you never click one of those red flashy heart dialog options, you'll never see any romances in this game. Awkward or not. But please accept that there are people who love this game, exactly BECAUSE you can live a fantasy in the game - including a certain romantic relationship.

And I'm gald to hear that you have many gay friends and collegues.

[FedericoV]

Sabariel wrote...

The "it's unrealistic" argument doesn't really hold water with me since you can create a Hawke that goes against everything your LI stands for and cares about and they'll still fall for him/her.

That only adds points to the "it's not realistic" thing.

[Grestorn]

FedericoV wrote...

Same thing but when I interact with him my charachter has that silly expression on his face and the diplomatic option allways have that "we two apostate lover against the rest of the world" tone.

Since I'm no mage in this game, I can't really relate (any my involvement is with Fenris anyway), but does he really give you the impression of a lover or not more of a good friend, two men fighting together against the odds of the world?

At least in my playthrough he doesn't come across as being overly gay or advancing, with the exception of one or maybe two instances. He certainly was a quite jealous once, though ...