212 réponses à ce sujet

[DownyTif]

enhancedhpb wrote...

The biggest similarity that DA2 has with ME2 is the conversation wheel/dialogue system.

Also, I don't get why people are saying ME1 and ME2 aren't rpg games. The ME series falls under the acton rpg or rpg shooter category. Look up the definition of role playing game if you don't think so.

I would also add 2 other big similarities between DA2 and ME2:
1- The drinking animation (hehe)
2- The letters (DA2 are letters, ME2 are e-mails). ME2 made me laugh many times with junk e-mails for fake bank transfer accounts and other ripoff things hehe (it was original). So, not only the principle letters is the same, but the DA2 team used that humour too and when I saw the letter in DA2 (saw just one so far), I was like "really? you had to do the same thing???". It felt uninspired... but maybe that's just me.

Modifié par DownyTif, 29 mars 2011 - 05:10 .

[neppakyo]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Me1 was an rpg. Me2 is an action game/movie with very few rpg elements sprinkled in there. DA seems to be heading in that direction.

-Polite

Yeah its sad. I never considered ME a real rpg. Just a shooter with rpg elements. Don't get me wrong, I liked ME, but I knew what it was, not a deep RPG experience, just a fun shooter with rpg-lite elements and a really good story.

Well, The Witcher 2 is coming out soon, I think I might go and pre-order that. Time to leave Bioware and invest in other worthy company's rpgs. I like how the witcher 2 is being billed as a dynamic non-linear rpg. Almost like a smack to DA2

Modifié par neppakyo, 29 mars 2011 - 05:43 .

[Vasparian]

If you don't think ME1 was a deep rpg, then you were not paying attention.

[Haexpane]

XX55XX wrote...

 

The ultimate question is: Why did people like ME2 more than DA2 even when both games had similar designs?

My guess is because a lot of ME2 fans are also Call of Duty fans.   I don't mind FPS but that's not what I want in my RPGs.   Borderlands was more RPG than ME2 was.  ME2 was just very pretty and had underwear secks

[Haexpane]

Vasparian wrote...

If you don't think ME1 was a deep rpg, then you were not paying attention.

ME 1 was IMO the best ME game hands down, and had some very promising RPG systems.  The clunky inventory system was simply REMOVED and other RPG elements like stats affecting aiming were REMOVED.

ME2 simply gutted any RPG elements from ME that were complex or not "streamlined" enough.

[InvaderErl]

Haexpane wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

 

The ultimate question is: Why did people like ME2 more than DA2 even when both games had similar designs?

My guess is because a lot of ME2 fans are also Call of Duty fans.   I don't mind FPS but that's not what I want in my RPGs.   Borderlands was more RPG than ME2 was.  ME2 was just very pretty and had underwear secks

I have never understood this logic. So yes, Call of Duty a game that is a first person shooter with a major online multiplayer component is going to have a lot of overlay with a third person single-player based shooter that is heavy on dialogue and has NO multiplayer whatsoever?

You're going to have to explain to me.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 29 mars 2011 - 08:01 .

[Giltspur]

1. Expectations

ME1 was a cover-based shooter (and an RPG).  ME2 was even more of a cover-based shooter (and an RPG--though in changing some of the RPG elements they did upset some RPG fans).  But it was evolution of something ME already was...a cover-based shooter.  It's not clear what DA's combat was meant to be evolving to but it wasn't really fulfilling the promise of DAO.  It was more like a course change.  (Deep down, there are a lot of similarities in the systems.  And some improvements even.  But it can feel very different, for whatever reason.)

2. Waves

Waves work better in a cover-based shooter than in an RPG.  Waves encourage movement and positional awareness.  There's decision making in your movement because there is smart and not-so-smart movement.  So moving is constant decision-making.  Waves can thus increase decision-making and tension in a game like ME.  Positional awareness has far less risk and reward in DA2.  So oftentimes the waves just end up feeling tedious.  I'm not saying it never works.  Some wave-based battles on hard/nightmare can be pretty cool.  But it's overdone and, for reasons stated, doesn't work as well as in a shooter like ME.  The DA team needs to look at the sorts of decisions that go into DA combat, determine what's fun and do more of that.  The goal isn't action.  The goal isn't awesome. The goal isn't some bigger market.  The goal is what's fun given what we are.  What decisions are fun, and how can we evolve *that*.   I feel they got off track somewhere in the attempted evolution of the combat.

3. Story
I probably liked DA2's characters more than ME2's but I liked both games in this department.  I also felt like I had more control over Hawke than I did over Shepard.  Some I suspect will feel ME2's story is more focused.  You know you're building up for a suicide mission.  And all of those companion quests build up to that.  So there's always a focus.  Hawke gets pulled around by fate.  Some don't like that. I like it fine.  While there is backlash to DA2 on many fronts, most of the backlash I think is over the combat changes and having gone a step too far on map re-use.

Modifié par Giltspur, 29 mars 2011 - 08:22 .

[Phonantiphon]

Has it failed? Or do you just think it failed because you don't like it? Do you even have an opinion of your own?

[Edge2177]

Never played Mass Effect, but I think one of the issues here is that Dragon Age 2 for some people climaxed in the Second Act. People saw the trailer, they thought the focus of the story was the rise to power. Had it ended up a climactic battle against the Arishok, and you became the Vicount, I suspect a few more people would have been satisfied.

The 'mystery' element of DA2 only appealed to a small demographic. What is red lyrium, did it cause all of the problems for Hawke? Did Hawke's family have to die and he had to lose everyone to save everyone else. If you sided with the mages, why did most of them die anyway?

I think therein lies the element that some people got, and others didn't. Mass Effect didn't have those elements, it had a central 'evil' figure.

[Haexpane]

InvaderErl wrote...

 

I have never understood this logic. So yes, Call of Duty a game that is a first person shooter with a major online multiplayer component is going to have a lot of overlay with a third person single-player based shooter that is heavy on dialogue and has NO multiplayer whatsoever?

You're going to have to explain to me.

Ever talk to a COD fan?  They like to shoot things, and fast paced action with flashy graphics.  Do I really need to 'splain more than that?

Even Bioware themselves have said they would LOVE To win over CoD fans and have those types of sales.

I'm saying it, Bioware is saying it, EA is saying it....

[Haexpane]

Giltspur wrote...
 

2. Waves

Waves work better in a cover-based shooter than in an RPG.  Waves encourage movement and positional awareness.  There's decision making in your movement because there is smart and not-so-smart movement.  So moving is constant decision-making.  Waves can thus increase decision-making and tension in a game like ME.  
 

By "waves" you mean "enemies that respawn out of thin air based on invisible trigger points" yes?  The reason games like CoD and DA2 use magical respawning enemies is quite simple.  It's the easiest way to design enemy encounters.  

It's a cheap trick that people who don't pay attention wont notice.   It RUINS games for me, mostly shooters and RPGs.   If blocks respawn in tetris, I understand.

But if enemies MAGICALLY APPEAR out of thin air in an RPG it bums me out and I turn off the game.

[Solid N7]

Haexpane wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

 

I have never understood this logic. So yes, Call of Duty a game that is a first person shooter with a major online multiplayer component is going to have a lot of overlay with a third person single-player based shooter that is heavy on dialogue and has NO multiplayer whatsoever?

You're going to have to explain to me.

Ever talk to a COD fan?  They like to shoot things, and fast paced action with flashy graphics.  Do I really need to 'splain more than that?

Even Bioware themselves have said they would LOVE To win over CoD fans and have those types of sales.

I'm saying it, Bioware is saying it, EA is saying it....

This is why hardcore rpgs fans are dumber than FPS fans, The COD and halos fans love this
kind of games for the "MULTIPLAYER" and the skill you need to win in a multiplayer match, tell me in rpgs you need skill to play? no!!!!

Modifié par Solid N7, 29 mars 2011 - 09:04 .

[Killer3000ad]

ME2 was a shooter so the streamlining worked there but DA is RPG, not a casual/mainstream/CoD thing so the streamlining hurt it instead but you'll never hear Bioware admit it. They seem to have an explanation or an excuse FOR EVERY thing we don't like about what they did to DA2.

[neppakyo]

Solid N7 wrote...

This is why hardcore rpgs fans are dumber than FPS fans, The COD and halos fans love this
kind of games for the "MULTIPLAYER" and the skill you need to win in a multiplayer match, tell me in rpgs you need skill to play? no!!!!

Seriously, don't say stupid things like this, it really demeans any intelligence you may have.

[Solid N7]

neppakyo wrote...

Solid N7 wrote...

This is why hardcore rpgs fans are dumber than FPS fans, The COD and halos fans love this
kind of games for the "MULTIPLAYER" and the skill you need to win in a multiplayer match, tell me in rpgs you need skill to play? no!!!!

Seriously, don't say stupid things like this, it really demeans any intelligence you may have.

The reason  that people  play FPS, Fighting games and sport games is for competition that brings these games with multiplayer, in the MMORPGs the only thing you need to be good is to grind period.

[InvaderErl]

Haexpane wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

 

I have never understood this logic. So yes, Call of Duty a game that is a first person shooter with a major online multiplayer component is going to have a lot of overlay with a third person single-player based shooter that is heavy on dialogue and has NO multiplayer whatsoever?

You're going to have to explain to me.

Ever talk to a COD fan?  They like to shoot things, and fast paced action with flashy graphics.  Do I really need to 'splain more than that?

Yes, because you're generalizing to the point of being disingenious. Please explain more and be specific.

As for my counter argument:

This




is not

This



In the case of the latter that's the single player.

As someone who has played shooters (and no I don't like the Call of Duty games I think they're offensively dumb) I can tell you that people play Call of Duty games do so for the multiplayer and the very particular action they provide. A CoD fan and I am assuming you are using that term to describe a hardcore FPS nut would not touch ME2 with a yard stick, the action is far too slow, there is too much talking and there is no multiplayer. Trying to say that because they improved the actual game part of the game that ME2 is now a Call of Duty-esque game is absurd.

It seems like you're generalizing about a genre you really don't know much about.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 29 mars 2011 - 09:44 .

[Wugger]

XX55XX wrote...

ME2 was considered by critics to be one of the best games of 2010.

DA2, in the meanwhile, was considered to be one of the most disappointing games of 2011.

Yet, if you think about it, both games had similar qualities:

1. Choices did not matter. There were hardly any reactive decisions in either game. Killed Elnora in ME2? Didn't matter. Do you save or kill the mages? They die regardless of whatever you choose.
2. The plots were underdeveloped in both games. ME2 focused on sidestories more than the Reaper conflict. DA2, focused on the loosely-connected endeavors of an individual while leaving a central conflict out entirely.
3. You couldn't get your comrades to talk to you whenever you wanted. It always had to be post-mission or whenever the game told you to talk to them.
4. Both games had extremely linear levels.

I can't think of anymore points, but feel free to add to this.

The ultimate question is: Why did people like ME2 more than DA2 even when both games had similar designs?

> this is the non-spoiler forum mate, thanks a lot.

[DownyTif]

Solid N7 wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Solid N7 wrote...

This is why hardcore rpgs fans are dumber than FPS fans, The COD and halos fans love this
kind of games for the "MULTIPLAYER" and the skill you need to win in a multiplayer match, tell me in rpgs you need skill to play? no!!!!

Seriously, don't say stupid things like this, it really demeans any intelligence you may have.

The reason  that people  play FPS, Fighting games and sport games is for competition that brings these games with multiplayer, in the MMORPGs the only thing you need to be good is to grind period.

False. Well, maybe true for you, but not for me. I sometimes play FPS games without any multiplayer at all, ex: Bioshock. I also play CoD single player. I played multiplayer and liked it, but that's not the reason behind me liking FPS in general. Oh and I like RPGs a lot, real-time strategy, turn-based, ... hell I love all good games (I love Braid and Castle Crashers!)

[InvaderErl]

Hardcore genre fans are stupid all around. Generally speaking of course, they're narrow minded and elitist.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 29 mars 2011 - 09:32 .

[Solid N7]

DownyTif wrote...

Solid N7 wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Solid N7 wrote...

This is why hardcore rpgs fans are dumber than FPS fans, The COD and halos fans love this
kind of games for the "MULTIPLAYER" and the skill you need to win in a multiplayer match, tell me in rpgs you need skill to play? no!!!!

Seriously, don't say stupid things like this, it really demeans any intelligence you may have.

The reason  that people  play FPS, Fighting games and sport games is for competition that brings these games with multiplayer, in the MMORPGs the only thing you need to be good is to grind period.

False. Well, maybe true for you, but not for me. I sometimes play FPS games without any multiplayer at all, ex: Bioshock. I also play CoD single player. I played multiplayer and liked it, but that's not the reason behind me liking FPS in general. Oh and I like RPGs a lot, real-time strategy, turn-based, ... hell I love all good games (I love Braid and Castle Crashers!)

Again when you see  rpg tournaments??? all the big  tournaments games are about "FIGHTING, SPORT, FPS, AND STRATEGY (like ages, shogun etc.) Games.

[InvaderErl]

Rpgs are generally single-player experiences there's not really a way to have a competitive tournament in that regard. Even mmos like WoW are about progression and teamwork in most cases than any immediate Destroy the Enemy objective!

That doesn't mean they don't require skill. They simply don't require the same type of competitive skills that those genres require.

[Solid N7]

InvaderErl wrote...

Rpgs are generally single-player experiences there's not really a way to have a competitive tournament in that regard. Even mmos like WoW are about progression and teamwork in most cases than any immediate Destroy the Enemy objective!

That doesn't mean they don't require skill. They simply don't require the same type of competitive skills that those genres require.

I agree, but again in rpgs you only need to grind to be good.

[Haexpane]

Solid N7 wrote...

 
This is why hardcore rpgs fans are dumber than FPS fans, The COD and halos fans love this
kind of games for the "MULTIPLAYER" and the skill you need to win in a multiplayer match, tell me in rpgs you need skill to play? no!!!!

Check the stats when the devs choose to release them. Last stats I saw on the Halo series was LESS THAN 50% of Halo players go online at all.  IDK about CoD.

[Haexpane]

InvaderErl wrote...
  A CoD fan and I am assuming you are using that term to describe a hardcore FPS nut would not touch ME2 with a yard stick, 

I am not, so your hair becomes NIGOOOLUSSH GAGE!  (stuttering john melendez Jay leno show announcer voice)

[Haexpane]

Solid N7 wrote...

 

The reason  that people  play FPS, Fighting games and sport games is for competition that brings these games with multiplayer, in the MMORPGs the only thing you need to be good is to grind period.
../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

Stats I saw about the Madden NFL franchise.  Maybe 40% even go online at all?  (I bet most of that is JUST for the roster download, that's what I do. I've played madden online a few times, it was garbage)

DCUO is a MMORPG that has PVP and the PVP is mostly skill based (gear and stats have some effect)

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