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[The Angry One]

Anders caught by the Templars? Bah! The Templars couldn't catch a fly evven if they had every giant spider in the game on their side.

[TJPags]

The Angry One wrote...

Anders caught by the Templars? Bah! The Templars couldn't catch a fly evven if they had every giant spider in the game on their side.

I'm pretty sure that every mage the Templars "captured" was actually captured by Hawke.
 
Well, except Bethany.

[Randy1012]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Hawke wasn't a catalyst for anything. The Deep Roads expedition still would have happened without Hawke. The qunari still would have attacked Kirkwall. Meredith still would have gotten a piece of the idol and gone wacko. Vengeance still would have blown up the Chantry. And, most importantly, Varric still would have been awesome.

The Deep Roads expedition still would have happened, but would the Idol have been discovered? Would it have been a success if Hawke didn't find that alternate route? Maybe.  Maybe not. If not, then Meredith wouldn't have gone completely nutso.

Someone else could have easily found the alternate route through the Deep Roads. Hawke didn't do anything any other reasonably experienced fighter couldn't have done there.

If Hawke didn't meet up with Isabela, would the Qunari have been able to find the Tome? Maybe. Maybe not.

If they hadn't been able to find the tome, the qunari still would have attacked Kirkwall. It's possible that Kirkwall would have fallen to them, but it wasn't a guarantee. Again, Hawke's presence wasn't absolutely vital.

If Hawke didn't come to Kirkwall, would Anders have gotten caught by the Templars? Possibly.

If Hawke hadn't come to Kirkwall, it's possible Vengeance and Karl wouldn't have gone through with their original plan, or they might have tried something different.

It's easy to say that Hawke was irelevant, but it's impossible to know how things would have turned out if Hawke hadn't made it to Kirkwall.

Hawke may not have instigated events, but Hawke's decisions influenced a lot.

Hawke's decisions only influenced events that were instigated by other people. My argument was that Hawke was not a catalyst for any major plot developments, not that he/she wasn't an influential factor in how they transpired.

Modifié par Randy1083, 27 mars 2011 - 05:26 .

[Ingu]

Good points, personally I'd say it's not exactly a role that Hawke 'wanted' or 'fought for', but a role that was basically thrust upon him. It's like an insanely long origins story, but instead of being forced to become a grey warden and end the blight, you're forced to become a fugitive/inspiring figure and do stuff about the mage/templar war.

It's mostly about right place-right time as well, instead of meeting Duncan you just meet Varric and Anders. -shrugs- A lot of the greatness is implied more than anything... though you don't feel like you've done anything to achieve it. You can always assume that it's the public who blew your role out of proportion for the sake of having a Joan-of-Arc style character.

[88mphSlayer]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Hawke wasn't a catalyst for anything. The Deep Roads expedition still would have happened without Hawke. The qunari still would have attacked Kirkwall. Meredith still would have gotten a piece of the idol and gone wacko. Vengeance still would have blown up the Chantry. And, most importantly, Varric still would have been awesome.

The Deep Roads expedition still would have happened, but would the Idol have been discovered? Would it have been a success if Hawke didn't find that alternate route? Maybe.  Maybe not. If not, then Meredith wouldn't have gone completely nutso.

If Hawke didn't meet up with Isabela, would the Qunari have been able to find the Tome? Maybe. Maybe not.

If Hawke didn't come to Kirkwall, would Anders have gotten caught by the Templars? Possibly.

It's easy to say that Hawke was irelevant, but it's impossible to know how things would have turned out if Hawke hadn't made it to Kirkwall.

Hawke may not have instigated events, but Hawke's decisions influenced a lot.

which is why i think the han solo analogy works pretty well... that character never started anything in star wars, but without him Luke/Obiwan wouldn't have escaped the imperial blockade, they never would've made it to the death star, even if they did what's the chance anybody could even escape? having this guy around was pure luck, and without han - luke would've been killed by darth vader - bye bye rebels bye bye trilogy

[Ingu]

88mphSlayer wrote...

which is why i think the han solo analogy works pretty well... that character never started anything in star wars, but without him Luke/Obiwan wouldn't have escaped the imperial blockade, they never would've made it to the death star, even if they did what's the chance anybody could even escape? having this guy around was pure luck, and without han - luke would've been killed by darth vader - bye bye rebels bye bye trilogy

Mm, I like your analogy, it works well.

[Randy1012]

88mphSlayer wrote...

which is why i think the han solo analogy works pretty well... that character never started anything in star wars, but without him Luke/Obiwan wouldn't have escaped the imperial blockade, they never would've made it to the death star, even if they did what's the chance anybody could even escape? having this guy around was pure luck, and without han - luke would've been killed by darth vader - bye bye rebels bye bye trilogy

So, basically Hawke is the hero's sidekick, and not the actual hero of the story.

Which makes Varric the closest thing DA2 has to a protagonist. Works for me!

[Darth Krytie]

88mphSlayer wrote...


which is why i think the han solo analogy works pretty well... that character never started anything in star wars, but without him Luke/Obiwan wouldn't have escaped the imperial blockade, they never would've made it to the death star, even if they did what's the chance anybody could even escape? having this guy around was pure luck, and without han - luke would've been killed by darth vader - bye bye rebels bye bye trilogy

You're spot on. Hawke is Han. (And he can even be the same sarcastic scoundral type, too.)  I think the point isn't that Hawke was important because Hawke did a, b, or c. Hawke is important because of how others perceive him.

[88mphSlayer]

Randy1083 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

which is why i think the han solo analogy works pretty well... that character never started anything in star wars, but without him Luke/Obiwan wouldn't have escaped the imperial blockade, they never would've made it to the death star, even if they did what's the chance anybody could even escape? having this guy around was pure luck, and without han - luke would've been killed by darth vader - bye bye rebels bye bye trilogy

So, basically Hawke is the hero's sidekick, and not the actual hero of the story.

Which makes Varric the closest thing DA2 has to a protagonist. Works for me!

Hawke would make a good sidekick, certainly Hawke's situation is very similar to Hawke's companions who are also thrust into situations they possibly had no plan or desire to be in - all started by self-serving goals (Hawke - rags & riches, Isabella - the relic, Varric - deep roads, Merril - the mirror, etc.)

the only sidekicks who aren't completely self-serving from the start are Aveline and Anders, both of whom have more in common with Shepard and the Warden than Hawke (not necessarily a bad thing)

[Shin Kicker]

I think people saying that Hawke was irrelevant are forgetting that he's the big pacifier in all of the commotion that happened in Kirkwall. He wasn't so much the catalyst for all the stuff that was going on as much as he was the primary responder. Other people started the Qunari conflict, and Hawke put it down. Other people started the Mage and Templar war, and Hawke put the smack down on both of their leaders (and the main body of whatever side he/she opposed). Also other people initiated the Deep Roads expedition and released the relic on Kirkwall, and Hawke put the smack down on that at the end.

To me it makes sense that the Seeker thought Hawke was the instigator of what was going on, but when she realizes she was wrong about that, she still feels that she needs to find Hawke because she thinks he's the only one to pacify the dire situation that's alluded to. Hawke may not be the one who causes crap, but he sure can finish it.

It made sense to me as a story and I appreciate the deviations from the fantasy cookie cutter. Though it sure felt that they were building up to a more obvious, overarching threat in either an expansion or in Dragon Age 3.

[LobselVith8]

What truce could the Seekers and the Circles reach when the mages want freedom? I don't see what Cassandra thinks Hawke could do about the situation.

[PantheraOnca]

I don't think the deep roads expidition would have found the relic without hawke as anders wouldn't have supplied the map to whoever else came along looking for it.

LobselVith8 wrote...

What truce could the Seekers and the Circles reach when the mages want freedom? I don't see what Cassandra thinks Hawke could do about the situation.

If you could get Hawke, who is seen as having chosen a side and started a ****storm, to call for less radical behavior from the side he chose, it could calm down at least one side of the issue.

"i chose mage/templar because i believe the cause is right, but the methods being used are too much" or some such statement.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

What truce could the Seekers and the Circles reach when the mages want freedom? I don't see what Cassandra thinks Hawke could do about the situation.

Apparently they will "Listen to him" lol, dunno why... "Hey guys, its cool.. I fought for you guys freedom.. now can we all stop fighting and you guys can go back to being slaves?"

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Regardless of whether it's warranted, Hawke can become a hero to the mages or the templars. His actions help ignite a Mage revolution across the continent that changed a thousand year old status quo. Why would Cassandra reach out to Hawke, though? What does she think she could have told him that would have convinced him to side with her?

His actions didn't really do anything.. He talked to an old lady for a few minutes while his friend planted the explosives and that was the level of involvement he had in the events that triggered a war. I mean wasn't the blowing up of the chantry the whole reason they began to realise they could be defyed?

[Augustei]

PantheraOnca wrote...

I don't think the deep roads expidition would have found the relic without hawke as anders wouldn't have supplied the map to whoever else came along looking for it.

LobselVith8 wrote...

What truce could the Seekers and the Circles reach when the mages want freedom? I don't see what Cassandra thinks Hawke could do about the situation.

If you could get Hawke, who is seen as having chosen a side and started a ****storm, to call for less radical behavior from the side he chose, it could calm down at least one side of the issue.

"i chose mage/templar because i believe the cause is right, but the methods being used are too much" or some such statement.

So he convices one side to stop fighting? then what about the other side? They either meet their demands or they.... Continue fighting for their cause

[S Atomeha]

Thrennion wrote...

Catalyst.

I liked not playing the stereotypical hero/savior figure.

[blothulfur]

You're response to templar distrust is to all become blood mages and abominations and all you templars are incompetent because i'm the only one to do anything about the rebel mages so i'm not going to try and rise to power here in Kirkwall i'm just going to sod off and regret not letting the Arishok take this place, because he was bloody right.

When I saw leliana with head still attached that's what I imagined my hawke had finally gotten pissed off enough to do, that's how it ended in my mind. So hawkes role was oh I bloody give up, sort yourselves out you self pitying ineffective arses i'm off home to ferelden.

[TheBlackBaron]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Besides his/her role in the Quanari invasion.  Other than that, what was so special about Hawke? The Warden had clear goals and purpose - Hawke is, essentially, a glorified errand boy (or girl) at best. Seriously, can anyone explain this to me?

Excuse me if I'm slightly miffed that it seems that Anders played a bigger role in DA2 than the player did. 

I find the best way of explaining Hawke's role is to basically think of the game as a really stretched out Origin from DA:O. It helps to explain much of the shortcomings I find in the game's story. 

[Whailor]

Why does he need a role anyway? He's just a person, among many others, who was trying to get his family away from the war and Blight. Suffered some losses on the way, arrived into Kirkwall and decided to secure a home for himself and his family. He simply worked towards it and along the way made a name for himself and as thing usually are with this, others are drawn to bigger names. So he helped or made his own choices and things just sort of went on. There were other forces who tried to pull him into the game or sway him in one or another direction, some may have succeeded, some felt the "don't screw with me" attitude and the result of it. Hawke was just living his life and dealing with things as they came at him and involved him or his family or his friends. Who would have known that things take a turn for better or worse, but for bigger in any case?

My Hawke is in general a neutral guy. He doesn't like a tyranny in general so the templars getting all medieval on mages is not what he likes to see. But at the same time, mages aren't exactly the "hapless victims" either and mess around enough to not trust them fully. My Hawke just does the things "his way". Sometimes it benefits the mages, sometimes it benefits templars, but in the end he doesn't really care about either of them, he does what he feels is right for him. It is sad that Bioware did not include a neutral end-game option so you have to choose, although seems that in some ways, choosing the templars but at the same time being merciful to mages not involved in event(s) sort of skewes it a bit more towards neutral goal (not supporting either side 100%).

Sometimes no clear goal is necessary, you just make one with your choices.

[Sentox6]

Randy1083 wrote...
Someone else could have easily found the alternate route through the Deep Roads. Hawke didn't do anything any other reasonably experienced fighter couldn't have done there.

Interesting argument. It could equally be applied to ME: Shepard is just a reasonably experienced soldier, who happened to be the right place at the right time (despite all of ME2's cyber-Jesus posturing).

I would have thought after decades of the unchanging saviour-of-the-world Hero archetype, more people would have enjoyed the change. Evidently not.

[KristofCoulson]

The Angry One wrote...

Not sure why this is praiseworthy - don't you all get enough of being of minor consequence to world events in real life?
Or are you all secret superheroes.

I wear a cape and a mask at the weekend!

[SLPr0]

Hawke's purpose was to stand astride the flashpoint of the war that is going to split Thedas into gloriously gory bits.

Morrigan warns us, in Witch Hunt...that change is coming, Flemeth again warns us in DA2, almost in exactly the same words.

The events of DA2 are more or less an unalterable series of events, as the premise of the story is already being retold to the Chantry by Varric the events have already happened as soon as you create a game. This is unlike DA:O in of which you had an origin point and an eventual end point...going from A to B in a long series of events.

The DA2 story goes from B to A instead, which is a nice variant. The events of the 12 or so years between the fall of Ostagar and the events in the end game of DA2 are already set in stone, and in as much, the purpose of Hawke is to guide how that story is told.

There are multiple ways this game can go on. Notice I say "go on" not "end". The game can only end ONE way...there is going to be a war, there is nothing Hawke can do to stop it. But I believe the purpose of Hawke's actions in DA2 are simply to set the stage for who Hawke is in DA3, nothing more, nothing less.

Hawke's purpose therefore is to define Hawke for the rest of your DA story, for as long as they choose to retain the Hawke character which I feel they probably will retain Hawke for the next release at least.

So unlike your Grey Warden, who was mostly around to touch off conversation events and to stab a dragon in the head to be the hero, your Hawke and your actions as Hawke in the story of Kirkwall simply set the stage for who you will be in DA3.

Its actually, when you think about it, a quite ingenious way to set up a primary voiced lead character that YOU can relate to, after all, you pretty much will have created him, and guided his choices in the person he becomes in the deepening story.

Think of Hawke and DA2, as a 55 hour "Origin", and then you know what the purpose of Hawke is. Hawke's purpose is to let you decide who Hawke is from DA2 on.

I think this is probably a level of detail that most have missed out on. Just like in Mass Effect how your actions there affected the Shepard you were in ME2, your actions in DA2 will affect the Hawke you are in DA3 and beyond.

Though I could be completely off, I think this would be a level of complexity I would expect from BioWare, and its a level of complexity I think many fans, due to its unfamiliar nature, aren't getting.

[Eudaemonium]

Like a lot of people have said here, I generally saw Hawke as a 'right place-right time' character who ended up being caught up in events she had utterly no desire to be in. That said, she facilitated a lot of the issues. Cassandra and Varric basically sum it up best at the end when she asks "S it was all Meredith's fault?" and Varric responds "Maybe it was that damned idol. Or Anders. Take your pick."

[Dr. Catt]

Sentox6 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...
Someone else could have easily found the alternate route through the Deep Roads. Hawke didn't do anything any other reasonably experienced fighter couldn't have done there.

Interesting argument. It could equally be applied to ME: Shepard is just a reasonably experienced soldier, who happened to be the right place at the right time (despite all of ME2's cyber-Jesus posturing).

I would have thought after decades of the unchanging saviour-of-the-world Hero archetype, more people would have enjoyed the change. Evidently not.

It was laudible that Bioware attempted to create a protagonist that wasn't a messianic figure. However DA2 is a game with a plot that only realy starts when it actually finishes and the lack of Hawke's fundamental importance means the journey through the plot is not very satisfying. It may be more realistic in some ways but realism and fantasy RPG's don't tend to go amazingly well together - especially when the game is taglined "Rise to Power".

Elements of the game were a breath of fresh air and hinted at greater story arcs in the plot but 95% of the time these didn't really go anywhere or were very underdeveloped.

I think when your protagonist is a 'normal' person, and not messianic, you need everything else in the game to be more substantial, more believable and more compelling because you don't tend to get as much interest from your own character. For me DA2 didn't pull this off and so ultimate felt a bit flat.

[SLPr0]

Dr. Catt wrote...

Sentox6 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...
Someone else could have easily found the alternate route through the Deep Roads. Hawke didn't do anything any other reasonably experienced fighter couldn't have done there.

Interesting argument. It could equally be applied to ME: Shepard is just a reasonably experienced soldier, who happened to be the right place at the right time (despite all of ME2's cyber-Jesus posturing).

I would have thought after decades of the unchanging saviour-of-the-world Hero archetype, more people would have enjoyed the change. Evidently not.

It was laudible that Bioware attempted to create a protagonist that wasn't a messianic figure. However DA2 is a game with a plot that only realy starts when it actually finishes and the lack of Hawke's fundamental importance means the journey through the plot is not very satisfying. It may be more realistic in some ways but realism and fantasy RPG's don't tend to go amazingly well together - especially when the game is taglined "Rise to Power".

Elements of the game were a breath of fresh air and hinted at greater story arcs in the plot but 95% of the time these didn't really go anywhere or were very underdeveloped.

I think when your protagonist is a 'normal' person, and not messianic, you need everything else in the game to be more substantial, more believable and more compelling because you don't tend to get as much interest from your own character. For me DA2 didn't pull this off and so ultimate felt a bit flat.

The critical failure in DA2 is that the Rise to Power begins there it does not end there and I don't think it was developmentally planned to end there.

Hawke, as I stated, I feel still has a role to play, the Divine is seeking him specifically regardless of who he sided with.

The "Rise to Power" as it were, may be a multi-game journey. Which while a bit frustrating, may pay off in the long term for the story itself.

After all Shepard didn't save the galaxy in Mass Effect, he merely delayed the Reaper cycle. Hawke didn't save Thedas in DA2, he was at the crucible of the events that fractured it. Where he or she goes from there is largely up to BW.

Modifié par SLPr0, 27 mars 2011 - 11:29 .