226 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr. Catt]

SLPr0 wrote...

The critical failure in DA2 is that the Rise to Power begins there it does not end there and I don't think it was developmentally planned to end there.

Hawke, as I stated, I feel still has a role to play, the Divine is seeking him specifically regardless of who he sided with.

The "Rise to Power" as it were, may be a multi-game journey. Which while a bit frustrating, may pay off in the long term for the story itself.

After all Shepard didn't save the galaxy in Mass Effect, he merely delayed the Reaper cycle. Hawke didn't save Thedas in DA2, he was at the crucible of the events that fractured it. Where he or she goes from there is largely up to BW.

Hopefully you are right about that

But, as I think you are implying, this results in DA2 being ultimately unsatisfying when taken in isolation as a standalone game.

[Arppis]

Thrennion wrote...

Catalyst.

I liked not playing the stereotypical hero/savior figure.

Same here.

[SLPr0]

I won't disagree with that, this has a gigantic feeling of being a title of transition. It was a let down in that area but then again I think that was set up from the expectations set with DA:O, massive journey, gigantic odds, the fate of a nation and perhaps the world at stake and at the end you put everything right again more or less and you're the hero.

But this story was written, even DA:O's story, was written with the intent to build on for awhile. When I first got my DA:O Collectors edition and first saw the full map of Thedas, not just the map of Ferelden that many saw but the whole of Thedas...the first thing that went through my head is there is an awful lot of story to tell in these boundries and the Fifth Blight and the story of our Warden was merely a glass of water into a well in regards to the total volume of our story as compared to the total volume of the whole story.

DA2 I think is more true to acknowledging that there is a larger story, its not just play for 70 hours and save the world like your standard RPG. And thats where the unsatisfying feeling comes from.

I remember having something of the same unsatisfied feeling with ME2...cause I knew regardless of what I had done, it wasn't over and the was still a threat to the galaxy.

If you look at Mass Effect and DA:O hand in hand, had they not been decided on as multi-title intellectual properties, Mass Effect "could" have effectively "ended" with the first game. You staved off the Reapers getting back into the galaxy, you're the hero, good game.

Same with DA:O, it was set up as an epic adventure with a start and an end. So had it not been picked up as a story for further titles, it would have stood on its own without having needing any further explanation.

Now as both titles have moved into the "second act" area, they both feel profoundly unfinished...when you have finished them. I am hoping that the Arrival DLC for ME2 ties some of that off further, as the other DLC offerings for it have not really done much in that area...and makes ME2 feel like its met the start of ME3.

DA2 may have DLC priorities similar to the DLC priorities ME2 has had, to flesh out stories and add characters and give the protagonist new resources to draw on once the next chapter of the story is in our hands.

We shall have to see. I won't deny that the end of DA2 left me feeling disappointed, but I'd also have to admit its left me sitting here with 60 dollars in my hands waiting for the next one already so in one way it fails and in another, it completely succeeds.

Modifié par SLPr0, 27 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[Tainan7509]

SLPr0 wrote...

Hawke's purpose was to stand astride the flashpoint of the war that is going to split Thedas into gloriously gory bits.

Morrigan warns us, in Witch Hunt...that change is coming, Flemeth again warns us in DA2, almost in exactly the same words.

The events of DA2 are more or less an unalterable series of events, as the premise of the story is already being retold to the Chantry by Varric the events have already happened as soon as you create a game. This is unlike DA:O in of which you had an origin point and an eventual end point...going from A to B in a long series of events.

The DA2 story goes from B to A instead, which is a nice variant. The events of the 12 or so years between the fall of Ostagar and the events in the end game of DA2 are already set in stone, and in as much, the purpose of Hawke is to guide how that story is told.

There are multiple ways this game can go on. Notice I say "go on" not "end". The game can only end ONE way...there is going to be a war, there is nothing Hawke can do to stop it. But I believe the purpose of Hawke's actions in DA2 are simply to set the stage for who Hawke is in DA3, nothing more, nothing less.

Hawke's purpose therefore is to define Hawke for the rest of your DA story, for as long as they choose to retain the Hawke character which I feel they probably will retain Hawke for the next release at least.

So unlike your Grey Warden, who was mostly around to touch off conversation events and to stab a dragon in the head to be the hero, your Hawke and your actions as Hawke in the story of Kirkwall simply set the stage for who you will be in DA3.

Its actually, when you think about it, a quite ingenious way to set up a primary voiced lead character that YOU can relate to, after all, you pretty much will have created him, and guided his choices in the person he becomes in the deepening story.

Think of Hawke and DA2, as a 55 hour "Origin", and then you know what the purpose of Hawke is. Hawke's purpose is to let you decide who Hawke is from DA2 on.

I think this is probably a level of detail that most have missed out on. Just like in Mass Effect how your actions there affected the Shepard you were in ME2, your actions in DA2 will affect the Hawke you are in DA3 and beyond.

Though I could be completely off, I think this would be a level of complexity I would expect from BioWare, and its a level of complexity I think many fans, due to its unfamiliar nature, aren't getting.

I agree. This is what i though after finishing DA2.

[Azazel185]

Maybe Hawke didn't exist at all and is totally a construction of Varric's imagination. An imaginary friend that he had that he can blame for everything.

Hawke does have a purpose in the game. He is a catalyst and his excellence causes alot of problems. There's no way to know if any of the groups would have been successful without him. The Deep Roads expedition may have failed without Hawke. The Varishok may have killed everyone and taken over Kirkwall if Hawke wasn't there. Without the Deep Roads expedition succeeding, Meredith may not have gotten her hands on the Lyrium idol. The Mage/Templar war may have not happened since Meredith wouldn't have had the corrupting influence.


That seemed to be the general idea based on the flashback dialogue.

[The Cannibal Factory]

Azazel185 wrote...

Maybe Hawke didn't exist at all and is totally a construction of Varric's imagination. An imaginary friend that he had that he can blame for everything.

Absolutely. Varric was the REAL Hawke!

I can totally see him defenestrating the Arishok, banging various party members and getting a nice pad in Hightown. It makes total sense of Hawke's epic beard - the beard Varric always wanted.

Now I'm humming the theme tune to Fight Club for some reason.

-

Anyway, to contribute to this debate, I think Hawke was completely unimportant and a little bit dull. I can be that every day of the week, I play Dragon Age to feel like someone special, hence the letdown. To conclude, Anders was the real star of the show, with a strong walk-on part for Isabella

Modifié par Lady Vengeance, 27 mars 2011 - 01:23 .

[Lord_Valandil]

SLPr0 wrote...

So unlike your Grey Warden, who was mostly around to touch off conversation events and to stab a dragon in the head to be the hero, your Hawke and your actions as Hawke in the story of Kirkwall simply set the stage for who you will be in DA3.

Its actually, when you think about it, a quite ingenious way to set up a primary voiced lead character that YOU can relate to, after all, you pretty much will have created him, and guided his choices in the person he becomes in the deepening story.

Think of Hawke and DA2, as a 55 hour "Origin", and then you know what the purpose of Hawke is. Hawke's purpose is to let you decide who Hawke is from DA2 on.

I think this is probably a level of detail that most have missed out on. Just like in Mass Effect how your actions there affected the Shepard you were in ME2, your actions in DA2 will affect the Hawke you are in DA3 and beyond.

Though I could be completely off, I think this would be a level of complexity I would expect from BioWare, and its a level of complexity I think many fans, due to its unfamiliar nature, aren't getting.

I have to disagree with that.
First...the Grey Warden didn't just wander around, poking dragons and killing things, which is exactly what Hawke does. I'm wondering why Varric needed to tell Cassandra about Hawke's fight with a High Dragon...
And also...I can't relate to him. He's not my character, he's Bioware's character...perhaps the Warden didn't have a voice, but I really felt that he was mine, I could relate to him.
Deepen the story...? Phew. The story is an unfocused mess...for me at least, I don't see any depth or complexity...perhaps I'm blind or I'm stupid, but I just don't see it.

Also...I'll be damned if I have to play as Hawke again in DA3.

[Gerrium]

He was kirkwalls janitor....

No really he is the kind of guy ... that we called today..

The fixer

[Darth Obvious]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Besides his/her role in the Quanari invasion.  Other than that, what was so special about Hawke? The Warden had clear goals and purpose - Hawke is, essentially, a glorified errand boy (or girl) at best. Seriously, can anyone explain this to me?

Excuse me if I'm slightly miffed that it seems that Anders played a bigger role in DA2 than the player did. 

It's just really bad writing on the developers' part.

DA2 is a disaster.

[UnitedWashclothExpress]

Hawk was a fall guy/girl. To put it frankly, **** hit the fan and s/he was there. Unlike Hawke's fellow companions, s/he was not exactly living under the radar. When random acts of chaos occur, the name everyone is familiar with will normally be associated with the situation.

Hawke was just there.

Modifié par UnitedWashclothExpress, 27 mars 2011 - 03:30 .

[In Exile]

WingsandRings wrote...

I actually get the sense that Hawke's "role" was all just the myth that Cassandra and the chantry had. When Cassandra stops Varric, it's often to say that she's sure the Champion did x on purpose, or knew y was down there, or recruited z because Hawke knew bla bla bla, when in actuality was all just accidental.

I seriously came away from it feeling that Hawke's "importance" to the story and to the future of Thedas was all a big misunderstanding...not that Hawke didn't do good things (stopping the Qunari invasion) but he/she is credited with things that were actually beyond his/her control. So maybe what Cassandra got out of it was that all the blame for the chaos can't be laid at Hawke's door? Going to have to do a little more soul searching about the role of the chantry/templars/mages in all of the chaos, instead of just pointing the finger at Hawke?

*shrug* I dunno.

This is the same feeling I had. That Hawke wasn't the cause of it all so much as the centre of it all and now the target of the Chantry. 

[allankles]

 Anders is an example of more realistic story telling. He's a companion who doesn't simply stay in the shadows of your PC. It's quite telling for me when people don't appreciate proper world building. Even the greatest super heroes are unable to stop every atrocity or act of terrorism. So to see Anders blow up the Chantry was quite a divergent style of story telling for Bioware, because (outside of ME 2) their game worlds usually sit still for the protagonist.

This was an example of a situation where, despite Hawke's best efforts to stay on top of an escalating crisis, he couldn't account for all the players. In a multi dimensional world, this is inevitable.

Bioware kept hyping DA O as a dark fantasy, but it ended up being nothing more than your typical heroic fantasy in the end. This game was a better example of how a dark fantasy's plot would be resolved. It leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, but unlike Divinity 2 (which completely insults the player's effort by screwing the PC) we actually get to see the hero walk away unscathed (at least physically).

[JamieCOTC]

DA2 is supposed to be a very personal story about a guy (or girl) who is at the wrong place at the right time. It is deconstructing the hero myth. In real life most "heroes" truly are competent to highly skilled people who happen to be at the right place at the right time (or wrong time, depending). If you look at it from that point of view, like it or hate, it does work to an extent. For me, the biggest problem w/ Hawke is that we don't get to know him (or her) enough for it to be truly a personal story and that's really where it fails. It's a shame, really as w/ more work the story could have been polished and tweaked enough to really work.

[Annoyed Dragon]

I think a lot of people are underestimating how complex the quests affected situations in the game.

 
They should think what if Hawke wasn’t there for example I say some stuff regarding the quest “On the Loose” in Act3.

 
Emile: I must say this guy is the luckiest idiot in the city I was playing a diplomatic mage and I felt like punching the guy anyway this is off topic if Hawke wasn’t there he most likely ended up dead. Through helping him Hawke gains favour with a noble family.



Evelina: if Hawke wasn’t there to deal with the situation an abomination would have been loose in the city cause who knows what kind of chaos in dark town.

 
Huon: if Hawke wasn’t there he most likely would have killed more elves to summon more demons, might have killed all the elves in the alienage in creating his own army of demons before the templars realised what was going own.



As you can see Hawke’s presence caused these situations to not happen, and this is just with this quest with other you can see that circumstance could have been very different if Hawke wasn’t there,

Modifié par Annoyed Dragon, 27 mars 2011 - 03:55 .

[Frybread76]

allankles wrote...

 Anders is an example of more realistic story telling. He's a companion who doesn't simply stay in the shadows of your PC. It's quite telling for me when people don't appreciate proper world building. Even the greatest super heroes are unable to stop every atrocity or act of terrorism. So to see Anders blow up the Chantry was quite a divergent style of story telling for Bioware, because (outside of ME 2) their game worlds usually sit still for the protagonist.

This was an example of a situation where, despite Hawke's best efforts to stay on top of an escalating crisis, he couldn't account for all the players. In a multi dimensional world, this is inevitable.

Bioware kept hyping DA O as a dark fantasy, but it ended up being nothing more than your typical heroic fantasy in the end. This game was a better example of how a dark fantasy's plot would be resolved. It leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, but unlike Divinity 2 (which completely insults the player's effort by screwing the PC) we actually get to see the hero walk away unscathed (at least physically).

So it's our fault that DA2's story is being criticized?  LOL.  And Hawke is not a super-hero.  He isn't even the most important character in DA2 by a long shot.

[TJPags]

Well, ignoring for a second that it's not Hawke's job to track down wayward mages, lets address this:

Annoyed Dragon wrote...

I think a lot of people are underestimating how complex the quests affected situations in the game.

 
They should think what if Hawke wasn’t there for example I say some stuff regarding the quest “On the Loose” in Act3.

 
Emile: I must say this guy is the luckiest idiot in the city I was playing a diplomatic mage and I felt like punching the guy anyway this is off topic if Hawke wasn’t there he most likely ended up dead. Through helping him Hawke gains favour with a noble family.

You could have killed him, IIRC.  You could have dragged him back in chains, I believe.  And yes, you could have done what you did - I did it as well.  And so Hawke gained favor with a noble faimly - how did that change anything exactly?

Annoyed Dragon wrote...
Evelina: if Hawke wasn’t there to deal with the situation an abomination would have been loose in the city cause who knows what kind of chaos in dark town.

Abominations were loose in the entire City anyway.  They didn't seem to cause much chaos, as mobody even stopped walking as my Hawke was fighting them.  So what's one more, more or less?

 

Annoyed Dragon wrote...
Huon: if Hawke wasn’t there he most likely would have killed more elves to summon more demons, might have killed all the elves in the alienage in creating his own army of demons before the templars realised what was going own.

ELves are second class citizens anyway.  Not sure anyone would have cared.  But okay, all the elves in the alienage would be dead . . .I killed an entire Dalish clan, nobody seemed to care or notice.  Why would this be different?  Also, see above regarding the dozens and dozens of demons and abominations around anyway . . .

Annoyed Dragon wrote...
As you can see Hawke’s presence caused these situations to not happen, and this is just with this quest with other you can see that circumstance could have been very different if Hawke wasn’t there,

I failt to see how anything changes by taking different choices in those or other situations . . .

[In Exile]

Thinking about it, Hawke is the same glorified errand boy the Warden was, with the only difference being that the dragon Hawke kills isn't as important.

[ExcitedApathy]

I don't agree with the argument that the Deep Roads Expedition would have gone on anyway. Varric tells Hawke that Bartrand is "pulling his beard out" trying to fund the expedition. Varric convinces Hawke to raise money and become a partner. Maybe the expedition doesn't happen without Hawke. Maybe it does, who knows?

I agree that Hawke is the catalyst, but Hawke is only one piece to the puzzle. Bartrand, Varric, Anders, Orsino, Meredith, Viscount Dumar, Isabella, their actions individually affected the city of Kirkwall, and even Thedas as a whole.

So, to provide my answer to the question "What is Hawke's role?", Hawke's role is the same role that each one of us goes through every day; to survive, to live, to take care of family and friends. It just so happens that given his family and friends, Hawke is put in some extreme circumstances in which Hawke has to make some tough decisions. I don't view Hawke as the main character like I do with Shepard or the Warden, the main character is the story and how the story got to the point that it is at.

[sevalaricgirl]

There's a new sherrif and her name is Hawke.

[t0mm06]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Besides his/her role in the Quanari invasion.  Other than that, what was so special about Hawke? The Warden had clear goals and purpose - Hawke is, essentially, a glorified errand boy (or girl) at best. Seriously, can anyone explain this to me?

Excuse me if I'm slightly miffed that it seems that Anders played a bigger role in DA2 than the player did. 

you dont have to have a mission or purpose to be important, hawke is a prime example of someone whos just trying to make a better life, but he is destined to be more, he cant help but do things to help people that leads to bigger things.
Hawkes important not because hes is strong and powerful (i mean hes on par with the warden for beating a high dragon) but mainly he was a catalyst for change, he wasnt the direct reason but without him all of the little things that caused the change wouldnt have happened, Without hawke anders woulld have probably given into vengence and just slaughtered loads of templars before being slewn himself. 
The qunari would ahve destroyed the city and whilst probably not being able to win agaist the rest of the free marshers in the war after kirkwall wouldn't have been able to have its mage/templar rebelion.
The Idol would probably never have gotten out of the deeproads (would varric and bartrand have been able to get the maps, amde it through the tunnels and gotten the money together in time?
But one of his big things is leading the templards/Mage to victory in the final battle.  
Also by the ending of the game its shown that they are really looking for him due to his Skills, these are the things that really make him remarkable, the warden had to be remarkable and great he is part of the wardens, but hawkw is just a normal guy who is great on his own without being a member of a great order. This is why they are looking for him, because he is respected by everyone. (i think this is why the rivalry/friendship really replaced the liked you/hate you thing in origns) to show that even if they dont like you they respect you

[Annoyed Dragon]

You could have killed him, IIRC.  You could have dragged him back in chains, I believe.  And yes, you could have done what you did - I did it as well.  And so Hawke gained favor with a noble faimly - how did that change anything exactly?

Well besides the 5 gold award, the family hold dipolmatic influence that could be useful in later dlc though it is too soon to say this since we don't know what dlc we will see.


Abominations were loose in the entire City anyway.  They didn't seem to cause much chaos, as mobody even stopped walking as my Hawke was fighting them.  So what's one more, more or less?

The same could be said in DA: O not many people reacted to fights in the city only some guards sometimes, anyway the abomination you was fighting was just generated in areas, this abomination was interacting with people using them to conceal itself meaning it was planning something besides a simple rampage, though whatever that plan was doesn't matter since Hawke dealt with it. 

 
ELves are second class citizens anyway.  Not sure anyone would have cared.  But okay, all the elves in the alienage would be dead . . .I killed an entire Dalish clan, nobody seemed to care or notice.  Why would this be different?  Also, see above regarding the dozens and dozens of demons and abominations around anyway . . .

As I said in the question above they don't really count since they were just generated to either fill up a dungeon or area depending on circumstance. What matters is it was introduced by the quest and by lore of the game kirwall connection to fade is strong due to all the death that happened in its history.

Anyway to answer your question your killing of the dalish clan might have influence in future dlc since we really don't get a epilogue for DA2, also what you said regarding the elves is a little cold hearted I think people will notice their missing servants and a revenge seeking blood mage with a army of demons at his command.
 


I failt to see how anything changes by taking different choices in those or other situations . . .
Like I said we don't get a epilogue to read how our choices changed things maybe we will see it in future in dlc and expansions. Though I am little surprised to hear you don't see the difference by a roleplaying point a view there is big differences also I am not sure but with Emile if you send him to the circle you would most likely see him in last quest of the game regardless which side you pick.

[t0mm06]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Regardless of whether it's warranted, Hawke can become a hero to the mages or the templars. His actions help ignite a Mage revolution across the continent that changed a thousand year old status quo. Why would Cassandra reach out to Hawke, though? What does she think she could have told him that would have convinced him to side with her?

This despends on how you played him for instance, i played him so he basically wanted kirkwall to be safe, and no war, he wanted the mages to be treated better but saw that they cant just have free reign like they do in tivinter. So he pretty much wants what the chantry wants Peace .. (Cassandra  and Linliana were for the chantry not the templars) but if he was a hard core templaer lover or mage  lovers then its yet to be seen.

[TJPags]

I didn't see Emile in the final battle. I admit I may have just missed him, or forgotten.

But, as I said in another thread on a similar topic, your points - like those of the poster in that other thread - all involve waiting for some kind of future release - DLC or DA3 - to find out how events or choices impact the world. That's kind of my point. Nothing Hawke does seems to impact the events in DA2. Sure, maybe they have some impact down the line . . . maybe Emile's family, for example, crusades for mages rights, throwing their money and influence behind it (assuming you treated Emile nicely, that is), seeking some kind of compromise. That's possible. But in DA2, what you do with Emile means nothing to how events play out.

To me, the idea that things we do in DA2 will have an effect only in a later release - be it DLC or DA3 - is so thoroughly distasteful I can hardly express it.

[t0mm06]

Randy1083 wrote...

Hawke wasn't a catalyst for anything. The Deep Roads expedition still would have happened without Hawke. The qunari still would have attacked Kirkwall. Meredith still would have gotten a piece of the idol and gone wacko. Vengeance still would have blown up the Chantry. And, most importantly, Varric still would have been awesome.

Would any of that been the same? it would have taken bartrand and varric a lot longer to get the money (meaning more drakspawn to contend with) also the second route was ment to be 'too danferous' for them so hawke and co had to make it safe.  All this leads to them maybe not getting the idol.

Yes the Qunari would still have attacked but without hawke they could have won (thats why he was made champion)

and would vengeance still have blown it up? or would he have gone mad earlier and just gone on a rampage (regardless of how u treat him anders does say at least 3 times that the only thing stopping vengeance is hawke)

Edit: and yes Varric would have remaind awesom 

Modifié par t0mm06, 27 mars 2011 - 05:04 .