226 réponses à ce sujet

[aebriol]

Hawke is a catalyst rather than protagonist. His choices didn't matter, except insofar that he was involved. Chosing to get involved in the deep roads expedition made sure it happened at all - and led to Meredith going bat**** insane, turning up the heat on the mages, making everything go to hell.

Which is Varric's point when he is telling the story. And apparently the story being told elsewhere is that the champion wanted everything to happen as it did - but he/she didn't. The champion was just there, with Anders and the deep road expedition, and Isabela, being the main real protagonists (Isabela brought the Qunari, deep road expedition lead to the relic, crankdown on mages, and Anders going ... the way he does).

[TJPags]

aebriol wrote...

Hawke is a catalyst rather than protagonist. His choices didn't matter, except insofar that he was involved. Chosing to get involved in the deep roads expedition made sure it happened at all - and led to Meredith going bat**** insane, turning up the heat on the mages, making everything go to hell.

Which is Varric's point when he is telling the story. And apparently the story being told elsewhere is that the champion wanted everything to happen as it did - but he/she didn't. The champion was just there, with Anders and the deep road expedition, and Isabela, being the main real protagonists (Isabela brought the Qunari, deep road expedition lead to the relic, crankdown on mages, and Anders going ... the way he does).

But getting involved the the Deep Roads expedition wasn't a choice.  It was mandatory.  Do it, or the game never advances.  Hawke didn't come up with the idea of going there, and it was made clear by Varric that Bartrand was going no matter what.

You call Hawke the catalyst, yet the things you describe - other than the Deep Roads thing, which I disagree with you on - point out how Hawke was not, in fact, the Catalyst.

[VheodTh]

in short, things would not have turned out they way they did without the champion of kirkwall, period. If you say that all would have happened without Hawke, its the same kind of speculation as would Alister have been able to unite the races and defeat the arch demon without the pc...

Modifié par VheodTh, 27 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[Annoyed Dragon]

VheodTh wrote...

in short, things would not have turned out they way they did without the champion of kirkwall, period. If you say that all would have happened without Hawke, its the same kind of speculation as would Alister have been able to unite the races and defeat the arch demon without the pc...

Finally some one put this point forward as we can see the main character does by presence cause the situation to be different, that is the point I was trying to make earlier with my examination of the quest "On the Loose" certain things wouldn't have happened if Hawke wasn't there.

[aebriol]

TJPags wrote...
But getting involved the the Deep Roads expedition wasn't a choice.  It was mandatory.  Do it, or the game never advances.  Hawke didn't come up with the idea of going there, and it was made clear by Varric that Bartrand was going no matter what.

You call Hawke the catalyst, yet the things you describe - other than the Deep Roads thing, which I disagree with you on - point out how Hawke was not, in fact, the Catalyst.

"Or the game never advances" ... uh, that's not really something that matters. I am not saying that your choices matter. I am saying that, in this story, he is involved and makes sure great big unexpected disasteruos things happen.  

[TJPags]

aebriol wrote...

TJPags wrote...
But getting involved the the Deep Roads expedition wasn't a choice.  It was mandatory.  Do it, or the game never advances.  Hawke didn't come up with the idea of going there, and it was made clear by Varric that Bartrand was going no matter what.

You call Hawke the catalyst, yet the things you describe - other than the Deep Roads thing, which I disagree with you on - point out how Hawke was not, in fact, the Catalyst.

"Or the game never advances" ... uh, that's not really something that matters. I am not saying that your choices matter. I am saying that, in this story, he is involved and makes sure great big unexpected disasteruos things happen.  

I'll agree Hawke is involved.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree regarding Hawke making sure great big things happen, whether expcted, unexpected, disastrous or wonderful.

[Meathooks333]

Some have said that Hawke is like a side-kick, a "Han Solo" type of character. I have to disagree. It's clear that Hawke is the Hero in this story. To continue with the Star Wars comparison, he's Luke Skywalker, from A New Hope.

Luke begins with humble origins as a farmboy, when his uncle buys two droids that end up leading him to a meeting with Obi-Wan Kenonbi. Obi-Wan wants to take Luke with him, but Luke doesn't go until the Empire kills his aunt and uncle. Luke is more "along for the ride" than anybody else in the film (well maybe not Threepio) Yeah, Luke is the one who decides to go rescue Princess Leia instead of staying put, but that's no different than Hawke deciding to help Isabela find the relic. Luke ultimately joins the rebels, and brings down the Death Star, which is not unlike Hawke picking a side and ending the immediate threat to Kirkwall in the final act of DA2.

My point is this. Just because the Hero of the story isn't the one who moves the action along doesn't make him any more or less of a Hero.

[MicManGuy]

This game should have been just Part 1 (out of 3).

The "over a course of 10 years" thing was totally arbitrary. Each Act of the game could have just as believably had 1 month in between them as opposed to 3 years. In fact, it is much LESS believable that Hawke just sits on his butt for 3 years.

[TJPags]

Meathooks333 wrote...

Some have said that Hawke is like a side-kick, a "Han Solo" type of character. I have to disagree. It's clear that Hawke is the Hero in this story. To continue with the Star Wars comparison, he's Luke Skywalker, from A New Hope.

Luke begins with humble origins as a farmboy, when his uncle buys two droids that end up leading him to a meeting with Obi-Wan Kenonbi. Obi-Wan wants to take Luke with him, but Luke doesn't go until the Empire kills his aunt and uncle. Luke is more "along for the ride" than anybody else in the film (well maybe not Threepio) Yeah, Luke is the one who decides to go rescue Princess Leia instead of staying put, but that's no different than Hawke deciding to help Isabela find the relic. Luke ultimately joins the rebels, and brings down the Death Star, which is not unlike Hawke picking a side and ending the immediate threat to Kirkwall in the final act of DA2.

My point is this. Just because the Hero of the story isn't the one who moves the action along doesn't make him any more or less of a Hero.

Well, I don't buy into the Han Solo theory so much, but I sure don't buy into this one.

I'm not a Star Wars expert, so forgive me if I don't get something 100% correct, but lets examine this:

Star Wars:  A New Hope.  That's the full title of the movie.  What is the hope?  Seems to me, the hope is that a new Jedi will come along to battle the Sith Lord/Emperor and his protege, Darth Vader.  And lo and behold, what do we have?  Luke, a Jedi who needs to be trained.  Why is he being hunted?  Well, yes, because his droids were carrying a message from Leia to Obi-Wan.  But Luke chooses to help Leia and the rebels.

Clearly, as the story progresses from The Empire Strikes Back into Return of the Jedi, Luke embraces his role as a Jedi, and fights for a specific goal - to bring down the Emperor and bring peace to the galaxy.

In DA2, we have Hawke, a refugee from the Blight who moves to Kirkwall with the goal of establishing a life.  Hawke does not need, at any point in the game, to make a decision to support Templars or Mages, until the final battle.  At that point, Hawke is forced to do so.  We see no difference in the ending whether Hawke sides with the Mages or Templars - Hawke still has to fight and kill both Orsino and Meredith, there is still a mage rebellion, etc.  If Luke had sided with Darth Vader, the rebel hope would have been dashed, and the rebellion crushed.

So I'm not so sure comparing Hawke to Luke Skywalker works.

[Meathooks333]

Yeah the big difference being the ending. Luke is never given any reason to side with the empire other than the fact that he was going to enter the imperial academy to be a starfighter. And yes, Luke does ultimately fall into a more active role in the story in later films, but if the ending is any sign of things to come, we haven't heard the last of Hawke at this point.

My point was more that a hero doesn't need to make all the decisions and be the main protagonist or catalyst to be a great hero, than it was to compare Luke to Hawke directly, there are plenty of things that distinguish their stories from one and other.

[Naughty Bear]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Thrennion wrote...

Catalyst.

I liked not playing the stereotypical hero/savior figure.

Yeah same here.

The whole thing though about him being the most important person in Dragon Age seemed way off to me though.
Anders was far more important than he was

Me 3

[B14rgFTW]

Hawke is one part protagonist and one part catalyst. At first he is simply trying to help his family after the destruction of Lothering, then the Expedition comes along. During that he finds the Idol there-by setting certain events in motion. Ya see? One part protagonist one part catalyst. Also throughout the game he (you) has to make certain choices to further an event along. It's when your party members (or someone else) jacks everything up is when he truly becomes the protagonist A.K.A. The Champion.

[MKDAWUSS]

Hawke isn't even a catalyst. Hawke is more or less just an involved witness. Take Hawke out and the story ends up being essentially the same.

[AlexXIV]

I think I agree with the people who said here that the point of the story was supposed to be to uncover that Hawke wasn't the cause of all this, at least not on purpose. The seekers seem to think that Hawke is the person behind all this, the mastermind. Which turns out, as you play the game, wasn't so. I guess the legend goes that Hawke came to Kirkwall with his friends to start a rebellion. That's what Cassandra at first thought too.

I can't say that this worked well. I mean most don't get it probably and even those who do, don't always think it was a good idea. I mean to play the role of a legendary hero who brought about the probably most drastic change in history, and find out that the legends are not even true. That it were mostly Meredith and Anders who caused all of this.

[MKDAWUSS]

AlexXIV wrote...

I think I agree with the people who said here that the point of the story was supposed to be to uncover that Hawke wasn't the cause of all this, at least not on purpose. The seekers seem to think that Hawke is the person behind all this, the mastermind. Which turns out, as you play the game, wasn't so. I guess the legend goes that Hawke came to Kirkwall with his friends to start a rebellion. That's what Cassandra at first thought too.

I can't say that this worked well. I mean most don't get it probably and even those who do, don't always think it was a good idea. I mean to play the role of a legendary hero who brought about the probably most drastic change in history, and find out that the legends are not even true. That it were mostly Meredith and Anders who caused all of this.

I think that was supposed to be the main punchline to the plot. Anders was the cause of all that and not Hawke. He was the one who provided the map to the Deep Roads containing the Lyrium Idol (whether or not he knew what was there can be up for debate), and he was the one who made a Chantry go boom, placing the straw that broke the camel's back in the Templar-Mage tension.

[Meathooks333]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Hawke isn't even a catalyst. Hawke is more or less just an involved witness. Take Hawke out and the story ends up being essentially the same.

This can't actually be backed up with fact. I can think of several other outcomes to the story if Hawke never shows up in Kirkwall. If Hawke doesn't go on the deep roads expedition one could assume the group never finds the lyrium idol, Hawke is supposed to be this extremely skilled combatant who is capable taking on the darkspawn. In my mind, it's safe to say he's the reason Varric's group gets so far and isn't destroyed when Bartrand betrays them. Without Hawke the Lyrium Idol is never brought into play. That changes things quite a bit.

You could say this for any point in the story. Someone brought up in an earlier post, that while Hawke wasn't the one who started the conflict, he sure was the one who ended it.

He didn't start the fire, but he tried to fight it... sorry couldn't help myself.

[Foolsfolly]

TJPags wrote...

aebriol wrote...

Hawke is a catalyst rather than protagonist. His choices didn't matter, except insofar that he was involved. Chosing to get involved in the deep roads expedition made sure it happened at all - and led to Meredith going bat**** insane, turning up the heat on the mages, making everything go to hell.

Which is Varric's point when he is telling the story. And apparently the story being told elsewhere is that the champion wanted everything to happen as it did - but he/she didn't. The champion was just there, with Anders and the deep road expedition, and Isabela, being the main real protagonists (Isabela brought the Qunari, deep road expedition lead to the relic, crankdown on mages, and Anders going ... the way he does).

But getting involved the the Deep Roads expedition wasn't a choice.  It was mandatory.  Do it, or the game never advances.  Hawke didn't come up with the idea of going there, and it was made clear by Varric that Bartrand was going no matter what.

You call Hawke the catalyst, yet the things you describe - other than the Deep Roads thing, which I disagree with you on - point out how Hawke was not, in fact, the Catalyst.

And Anders was the catalyst for the Mage/Templar war.

And had Hawke not been around it's debatable if the Templars, Mages, Orsino, and Meredith would have taken out the Arishok or not.

Hawke, it turns out, wasn't nearly as important as everyone kept saying he was. And the great change that Morrigan talked about in Witch Hunt and Flemeth in Act 1 either wasn't that great of a change or it still hasn't happened some 7-10 years later.

[ModernMan2009]

Hawke is an example of a local folk hero. They start out as individuals following their own personal motivations and end up as legends personifying a struggle or ideal. Similar figures would be George Washington, Joan of Arc, Julius Caesar, Martin Luther King and Gandhi. Verrics' storytelling allows the player to learn how this folk hero truly came into being and to teach the Seeker, aka the audience, that any hero/champion/savior is a collection of stories. Hawke's role is to be the man or woman behind that story.

[AlexXIV]

Foolsfolly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

aebriol wrote...

Hawke is a catalyst rather than protagonist. His choices didn't matter, except insofar that he was involved. Chosing to get involved in the deep roads expedition made sure it happened at all - and led to Meredith going bat**** insane, turning up the heat on the mages, making everything go to hell.

Which is Varric's point when he is telling the story. And apparently the story being told elsewhere is that the champion wanted everything to happen as it did - but he/she didn't. The champion was just there, with Anders and the deep road expedition, and Isabela, being the main real protagonists (Isabela brought the Qunari, deep road expedition lead to the relic, crankdown on mages, and Anders going ... the way he does).

But getting involved the the Deep Roads expedition wasn't a choice.  It was mandatory.  Do it, or the game never advances.  Hawke didn't come up with the idea of going there, and it was made clear by Varric that Bartrand was going no matter what.

You call Hawke the catalyst, yet the things you describe - other than the Deep Roads thing, which I disagree with you on - point out how Hawke was not, in fact, the Catalyst.

And Anders was the catalyst for the Mage/Templar war.

And had Hawke not been around it's debatable if the Templars, Mages, Orsino, and Meredith would have taken out the Arishok or not.

Hawke, it turns out, wasn't nearly as important as everyone kept saying he was. And the great change that Morrigan talked about in Witch Hunt and Flemeth in Act 1 either wasn't that great of a change or it still hasn't happened some 7-10 years later.

I disagree. Hawke is not in Kirkwall.

Meredith is still a manical fanatic. Orsino is still a bloodmage. Anders is still in the mage resistance. The Qunari still show up and want their relic back. They still rise and are probably stopped by the templars. The final act will still happen since Meredith can be just as bad even without the idol. And the conflict is just as likely to happen. The only point Hawke ever gets important when he/she kills Meredith. And she would never have been that powerful without the idol that Hawke unearthed. So basically, no Hawke, same result.

[Lianaar]

"I can never decide if it os chance or fate."
"Hurled into the chaos you fight and the world trembles at your feet."
(or something similar).

While I am not sure I agree in having a destiny in RL, it seems that DA does have a working thing called destiny. Hawke's destiny led her to Kirkwall to be the name everyone remembers, when "it all started".

What we learn from the current events (Cassandra questioning Varric) is, that the Thedas is abot to learn what world war means and some people desparately try to act to prevent it or to be the victor in it. The Divine being one. We also learn, that the Champion of Kirkwall is a legendary figure, whose name is written all over the flags in this war. Someone who suddenly disappeared. With the Warden too.

In a pre-war or early war situations people caught off guard have to find out what happened and making theories, be them valid or not, is one of the first steps. Solving a problem starts with isolating the source of the problem. At first sight it seems Hawke made the problem. Second step is to define the problem, learn as much as possible of it. Then third step is to make sure the problem ceases to exist (either by eliminating the source, giving an answer, changing the source or creating a more pressing problem, that takes away attention).

So Cassandra descends into the legend surrounding a mystic figure that walked off into the sunset leaving a burning town behind her. And what did she find? That is -your- story. But she found a human. Not a hero, not a saint, not the devil, just a human with understandable motivations struggling everyday life, doing so more successfully then many other Fereldans. And because of her struggles, successes, past, decisions, people of interest surround him. Hawke is a beacon for trouble. Maybe by chance, maybe by fate. Whenever something happens, Hawke is there. How could an outsider ignore this? How could an outsider say: it is just natural that so many accidents and unlikely events happen at the same time? How come, Hawke goes down into the Deep Road and instantly finds a thaig none knows of, gets a relic that never was seen, that ends up with Meredith, who is -surprise- killed by Hawke? Wherever Cassandra turns her head, she runs into Hawke's name.

How you see Hawke's role from this point on depends on the personality of your character.
classical table top RPG works like this: the DM creatues an environment, fills it with people that have their own agenda and some conflict and elements that are outside the reach of the player. The player creates a character (possibly with some guidelines given, eg where she is from etc), but more so, the player creates a personality. Then the personality meets the environment and something happens.

For me DA2 was utterly classic P&P RPG. I made the personality of the charcter, Bioware made the environment and based on my characters' personality the story (not the events, but the story) was different. Life (however fictional) was different for many people. Hawke touched people, made them act for the better or worse, with or without wanting to (depends on the personality of your Hawke). A symbol, she became the symbol either by her choice, or the choice of others.

We are social people and in time of crises there are people we seek who we can trust will solve the crises and ensure that things stabilise. Hawke gained the trust of the Viscont, Meredith herself (who declared Dumar for viscont back in time) acknowledged her as a hero, by giving a title of Champion to her. The Grand Cleric took Hawke's side against a revered mother's, the Arishok respects Hawke for her actions.

Could it have been done by anyone else? Depends if you belive in destiny or not. Probably yes. But there are no others here.
On that note, could the Gray Warden from DA: O be anyone else? I believe the numerous origin stories prove, that yes, it could have been many others, were they put in the same situation. They all sought out the same parties, they had the same treates, neither of them ran away to call Orlesian Wardens. It could have been any race, any class. It mattered not who is in that role as long as the person being in the role was willing to fulfill "destiny". Same goes for Hawke.

A game's purpose is to entertain. An RPG's purpose is to make you experience things you would never be able to experience in real life, to wear the skin of personalities that you otherwise would not be able to explore. For some people Hawke was a perfect tool for it, for some differently inclined people the game failed its objective: entertainment. A matter of personal taste.

[AlexXIV]

Lianaar wrote...
*snip*

You mean like if you push a button and nothing happens, it is just your personal taste. Because some people will like that nothing happens and go "Wow, that's awesome".

[Foolsfolly]

AlexXIV wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

aebriol wrote...

Hawke is a catalyst rather than protagonist. His choices didn't matter, except insofar that he was involved. Chosing to get involved in the deep roads expedition made sure it happened at all - and led to Meredith going bat**** insane, turning up the heat on the mages, making everything go to hell.

Which is Varric's point when he is telling the story. And apparently the story being told elsewhere is that the champion wanted everything to happen as it did - but he/she didn't. The champion was just there, with Anders and the deep road expedition, and Isabela, being the main real protagonists (Isabela brought the Qunari, deep road expedition lead to the relic, crankdown on mages, and Anders going ... the way he does).

But getting involved the the Deep Roads expedition wasn't a choice.  It was mandatory.  Do it, or the game never advances.  Hawke didn't come up with the idea of going there, and it was made clear by Varric that Bartrand was going no matter what.

You call Hawke the catalyst, yet the things you describe - other than the Deep Roads thing, which I disagree with you on - point out how Hawke was not, in fact, the Catalyst.

And Anders was the catalyst for the Mage/Templar war.

And had Hawke not been around it's debatable if the Templars, Mages, Orsino, and Meredith would have taken out the Arishok or not.

Hawke, it turns out, wasn't nearly as important as everyone kept saying he was. And the great change that Morrigan talked about in Witch Hunt and Flemeth in Act 1 either wasn't that great of a change or it still hasn't happened some 7-10 years later.

I disagree. Hawke is not in Kirkwall.

Meredith is still a manical fanatic. Orsino is still a bloodmage. Anders is still in the mage resistance. The Qunari still show up and want their relic back. They still rise and are probably stopped by the templars. The final act will still happen since Meredith can be just as bad even without the idol. And the conflict is just as likely to happen. The only point Hawke ever gets important when he/she kills Meredith. And she would never have been that powerful without the idol that Hawke unearthed. So basically, no Hawke, same result.

What do you mean you disagree? Your point kinda reinforces my point that Hawke isn't important.

[Lianaar]

AlexXIV wrote...Hawke is not in Kirkwall.
Meredith is still a manical fanatic. Orsino is still a bloodmage. Anders is still in the mage resistance. The Qunari still show up and want their relic back. They still rise and are probably stopped by the templars. The final act will still happen since Meredith can be just as bad even without the idol. And the conflict is just as likely to happen. The only point Hawke ever gets important when he/she kills Meredith. And she would never have been that powerful without the idol that Hawke unearthed. So basically, no Hawke, same result.

Alternative story:
The city closes before Fereldans, all who are there get shipped out, the city closes its walls. Shaemus gets taken by the Winters and the Qunari get pissed, take over the city. Arishok and Meredith fight a one-o-one and one of them wins. Shaemus lives, becomes the new viscont. Either the Qunari leave and Meredith has a stronger templar base or Meredith dies and the Qunari stay.

A different hero rises, and it is not Hawke's name being sung, but a Kirkwall or Starkhaven hero's name.

Fenris runs away from Trevinter mages, tries to hide in darktown, finds Anders and kills him. Or Sebastian calls the Templars on Anders (considering Sebastian and Fenris didn't call the Templars on Anders BECAUSE of Hawke, as well as Aveline has been careful to avoid Anders' clinic because of Hawke)

The demon in hightown isn't stopped, the noble family gets powers. The daughter marries the new Starkhaven prince and they lead an army against Kirkwall to ensure their mutual reign in those two towns, then gradually take over the Free Marches making a new kingdom.

Some templars keep disappearing and reappearing, Cullan dies in the fight with one of the abomination, and soon the Templars have more abominations then anyone else, force the mages Uldred style and tear the veil open (which is particularly thin anyway) letting the demons and spirits walk free in Kirkwall arranging for funny street parties.

Isabel gets killed by Castillion, the Tevinter mages obtain the relic and crush the Qunari, who in revenge attack Kirkwall and their next stay is longer then 4 years.

Anders goes to the mines to obtain the resources needed for blowing up the Chantry and gets served rosted for the high dragon and kids, yummy sunday meal spiced with darkspawn taint and spirit flavor. The tainted archdragon opens the doors to the Deep Roads, and the retreating darkspawn resurface.

...the list goes on and on and on...

[The Angry One]

Lianaar wrote...

Anders goes to the mines to obtain the resources needed for blowing up the Chantry and gets served rosted for the high dragon and kids, yummy sunday meal spiced with darkspawn taint and spirit flavor. The tainted archdragon opens the doors to the Deep Roads, and the retreating darkspawn resurface.

Yeah it.. doesn't work that way.

[Foolsfolly]

What we learn from the current events (Cassandra questioning Varric) is, that the Thedas is abot to learn what world war means and some people desparately try to act to prevent it or to be the victor in it.

There's already been at least one world war in lore. The Qunari vs the entire people of Thedas. It ended in a standstill.

Arguably the Tevinter/Andraste thing too.