226 réponses à ce sujet

[Meathooks333]

Foolsfolly wrote...

What do you mean you disagree? Your point kinda reinforces my point that Hawke isn't important.

He's more or less presenting his opinion that no matter what Kirkwall ends up the same if Hawke is or isn't there. Whereas you've taken more of an open-minded approach saying that it's "debatable" whether or not Meredith and Orsino could take down the Arishok.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Without hawke nothing would have happened. He raised some of the funds neccesary to start the expedition. While you are raising the funds only one other person shows interest and that is dougal. Who was turned down. None of your companions would have been with you. Flemeth wouldnt have been "possibly saved". The lyrium idol wouldnt have been discovered and sold to meredith. And we have no way of knowing how long it messed with her mind.

[Persephone]

Thrennion wrote...

Catalyst.

I liked not playing the stereotypical hero/savior figure.

Short & sweet & exactly how I see it.

[Lianaar]

AlexXIV wrote...
You mean like if you push a button and nothing happens, it is just your personal taste. Because some people will like that nothing happens and go "Wow, that's awesome".

You can not claim nothing happened. You did a whole lot of things, they might not have reached your treshhold of excitement, but they happened. The game is subtle, and some people enjoy subtlety more then things being worn on the sleeves. This is the preference people have differently. The game took me 70 hours to finish. I wasn't staring at a blank screen in the meanwhile or a frozen picture. They are not epic, they are demything a legend to show that the hero is human. But I bet if the Warden and Alistair died on the tower without Flemeth's intervention, history would think them evil who failed, Loghain would have prolonged the Blight long enough to have the archdemon slain by a warden. Then Loghain would have been Hero of Ferelden and the Grey Warden char would be just a pile of bones chewed on by the darkspawn.

Many things happened to Hawke, around Hawke and by Hawke. But he was not god stirring the pot of events, he was swimming in the soup himself. Or herself in my case.

[The Angry One]

Persephone wrote...

Thrennion wrote...

Catalyst.

I liked not playing the stereotypical hero/savior figure.

Short & sweet & exactly how I see it.

Except you ARE and you are regarded as such.
The difference is you're a hero and saviour figure who's also a colossal failure.

[Persephone]

The Angry One wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Thrennion wrote...

Catalyst.

I liked not playing the stereotypical hero/savior figure.

Short & sweet & exactly how I see it.

Except you ARE and you are regarded as such.
The difference is you're a hero and saviour figure who's also a colossal failure.

Completely disagree. A failure how?

But I do love your avatar! Fem Shep rules!

[Lianaar]

Foolsfolly wrote...
There's already been at least one world war in lore. The Qunari vs the entire people of Thedas. It ended in a standstill.

Arguably the Tevinter/Andraste thing too.

True, however in this case people fought against outsiders. Here they need to fight their own. It is a different sort of war. Probably world war is not the correct term to use, I am not that good with English terminology. A world wide mage revolt? (Though the Qunari response of such chaos will be interesting.)

The Qunari war ended with both sides retreating, since the people from under the Qunari was massacred and thus they retreated. Every party signed the peace treaty but for the Tevinter Imperium, they still wage a war. That section of the war came to standstill.

Modifié par Lianaar, 27 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[ad1dash0lm3s]

His role is to set up the next Dragon Age. Well, I think that is obviously what it is. Anyone else agree?

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...


Except you ARE and you are regarded as such.
The difference is you're a hero and saviour figure who's also a colossal failure.

There's an integral difference between being a person that managed to do a few heroic things, and is now REGARDED as an hero by those who weren't there, and actually being a hero, i.e being a plot device in an impenetrable mecha suit.

Part of that difference being - the first thing happens in real life, the second not so much.

[JediHealerCosmin]

Yea, Hawke is a gifted person who just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Or wrong place/time, however people want to look at it.

It was indeed refreshing to step away from the whole saviour scenario, but I still prefer it because it's epic. DA2's story, despite it's creativity and beauty, wasn't epic and I really missed that.

Still, it's good for a change once in a while.

[Lianaar]

The Angry One wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

Anders goes to the mines to obtain the resources needed for blowing up the Chantry and gets served rosted for the high dragon and kids, yummy sunday meal spiced with darkspawn taint and spirit flavor. The tainted archdragon opens the doors to the Deep Roads, and the retreating darkspawn resurface.

Yeah it.. doesn't work that way.

It was a jest  I am unsure high dragons would feed rosted abominations to their kids anyway.
We can go more realistic and say that even if Anders gets to a point where he wishes to obtain the resources for the bomb or magic or whatever it was he used to blow up the Chantry with, and needs help. He doesn't have money (when you offer him pay, he refuses saying he doesn't care for money), so he needs trusted friends. Who would those be capable enough to help him obtaining the resources throughout some of the most dangerous territories of Kirkwall? Maybe he would be able to gather enough people, or try often enough with less capable people to achieve what he seeks. But it is not trivial at all. He himself claims, he would not have asked just anyone to help out with this. (You can validly argue that even if you don't help, he manages to do what he does, the argumentation still shows that removing Hawke from Kirkwall changes many things, and we do not have enough information to determine the scope of change.)

[TJPags]

But Anders blows up the Chantry whether you help him or not.

[Lithuasil]

Epicness is entirely subjective. Personally, I find a situation where a human takes down three or four foes on his or her own down, before succumbing to wounds or exhaustion, a lot more epic then watching Aragorn kill fivehundred orcs in under ten seconds.

If that makes sense - imho, Epicness becomes the harder to achieve, the further the subject is removed from the audience. Superman must accomplish a lot more to be as epic as batman, because Batman is a human. At the same time, there's (to me) a threshold of exhaustion, where an accomplishment (like what happens in some lotr battles) is just so ridiculous, it inspires laughter instead of awe. But that's just me

[Lianaar]

TJPags wrote...

But Anders blows up the Chantry whether you help him or not.

Provided the defense you and your friends ensured him (Varric, Aveline) was not the cause for templars not to catch him. As said by others, he isn't exactly silent about himself. Provided that defense would have not be given without you. We just do not know. These are uncertain factors. We can not say the story is ceterus paribus and we only take Hawke out.

[Meathooks333]

The Angry One wrote...

Except you ARE and you are regarded as such.
The difference is you're a hero and saviour figure who's also a colossal failure.

I don't really see Hawke as a "colossal failure". There were things that happened to him or those around him that maybe he did prevent, but there should be some grey area here.

Hawke couldn't save his mother. I even took the blame for this when Gamlen questioned me about it. But this is something that was out of Hawke's control. Nothing could be done to change the outcome, as evinced by the fact that no choices you make result in Leandra surviving the quest line. Not something I would label him a colossal failure for, let alone put him at fault.

Hawke clearly ends the Qunari attack. This is hands down a success no matter how you look at it. nothing can be doen to keep it from happening, it is the will of the Qun and the Arishok's devotion to it that causes this. Hawke puts an end to it in any series of desicions made.

In the same way Hawke removes the blood mage, Orsino, and the crazed Meredith from power, most likely replacing them with someone more desirable in any playthrough. No failure here.

Hawke is a hero through and through. Obviously the debate is how much impact he had on the story, maybe anybody could have filled his role, but I believe that there is no questioning his heroism.

[TJPags]

Lianaar wrote...

TJPags wrote...

But Anders blows up the Chantry whether you help him or not.

Provided the defense you and your friends ensured him (Varric, Aveline) was not the cause for templars not to catch him. As said by others, he isn't exactly silent about himself. Provided that defense would have not be given without you. We just do not know. These are uncertain factors. We can not say the story is ceterus paribus and we only take Hawke out.

What defense did I give Anders, exactly?  I'm not sure at all what you mean by this . . .

[Foolsfolly]

I don't know. Hawke's kind of a failure.

Hawke can't stop the war. Hawke can't prevent the death of the family (although one can live). Hawke seems to have a constant "Everyone around me suffers" aura around him.

If you roleplay Hawke as being someone who wants to just help his family (which most diplomatic/upper-right dialogue choices seem to be about) then Hawke is a failure.

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...

Epicness is entirely subjective. Personally, I find a situation where a human takes down three or four foes on his or her own down, before succumbing to wounds or exhaustion, a lot more epic then watching Aragorn kill fivehundred orcs in under ten seconds.

If that makes sense - imho, Epicness becomes the harder to achieve, the further the subject is removed from the audience. Superman must accomplish a lot more to be as epic as batman, because Batman is a human. At the same time, there's (to me) a threshold of exhaustion, where an accomplishment (like what happens in some lotr battles) is just so ridiculous, it inspires laughter instead of awe. But that's just me

Agreeing with you twice in a row is a new experience for me
But yes, the more I can relate to the hero, the more common, everyday (even if skilled) the person is, the more I can understand how her actions are over the generally acceptable. I can feel for a situation where my family is driven away from our lands, to run and by chance survive a battle, realising that no matter what you did, and accomplish, the mass of darkspawn are still just too overwhelming and then suddenly the sun shines at you and you are offered a way out. You grab it with 10 nails and you learn only that another door was slammed into your face. You can not just lie back and die, because your mother's life depends on you, because your sister begs you, so you sell yourself. And you have to work harder then anyone else, because so much you love depends on you. Then you finally work off the depth and want to just relax a bit, but you can again not do it. You learn what all you lost and see your mother's and sister's face, and you need again to stand up and fight. You learn of the Templars and you must help your sister, you claw with bloody fingers to have a grasp of events. Finally you go down to the Deap Roads, hoping it'll be the end of your fights, but you just learn you are betrayed and once again, you are not allowed to just lie back and die...
Should have Hawke learn right in the beggining: hey girl, you will have to kill the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter as well as an Arishok, my Hawke would have told her family: we leave. NOW. She was getting into her role step by step. And that slow process also made the story more reletable for me, it wasn't obvious, it wasn't spelled out. There was mystery, the future was not seen. You knew something is amiss, but you didn't start learning the events by the last chapter (yes, you'll kill the archdemon, yes, you'll stop the blight, the reaper invasion).

edit: I find joy in epic stories too, just like I enjoy a good whiskey and a good wine both. But I do drink them differently.

Modifié par Lianaar, 27 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[MKDAWUSS]

The thing is, every perceived "failure" (with a few obvious exceptions) ends up with Hawke achieving some sort of success and reward.

None of it felt like success or failure, just finished. "Mission complete," instead of "Mission accomplished" or "Mission failed."

[Lianaar]

TJPags wrote...What defense did I give Anders, exactly?  I'm not sure at all what you mean by this . . .

Hawke, Aveline and Varric all ensured that Templars are not that attentive toward Anders. Being friend of the Champion hold many people back from reporting to the Templars (just think on Fenris and Sebastian, naming your closest companions). Aveline also had a banter with Anders about the Guard and mages, and how she doesn't report him, while she should as per her duty. Varric is keeping the Merchant's Guild, the Coterie and the Carta from his doors. I would say this is pretty good defense.

On that note, if you couldn't relate to Hawke's story and you didn't have the feeling of being involved, that can not be argud, because that is a personal, subjective matter. I felt in touch with the story and I could relate, also a personal and subjective matter. I merely request that you claim there is no story, merely that you didn't see the story others enjoyed. Just like I accept you didn't enjoy the story I found.

Modifié par Lianaar, 27 mars 2011 - 09:11 .

[TJPags]

Lianaar wrote...

TJPags wrote...What defense did I give Anders, exactly?  I'm not sure at all what you mean by this . . .

Hawke, Aveline and Varric all ensured that Templars are not that attentive toward Anders. Being friend of the Champion hold many people back from reporting to the Templars (just think on Fenris and Sebastian, naming your closest companions). Aveline also had a banter with Anders about the Guard and mages, and how she doesn't report him, while she should as per her duty. Varric is keeping the Merchant's Guild, the Coterie and the Carta from his doors. I would say this is pretty good defense.

Okay, now I see what you mean.

And no offense, but I think that's a crock of nug droppings.

All that influence didn't do anything to help Bethany, after all.

So I'm expected to believe everyone extended themselves to protect Anders from the Templars and not Bethany?  That's . . . . .yea, sorry, can't accept that.

Anders had plot armor.  He was needed to blow up thr Chantry.

*editing because I didn't see the second half of you post, must have edited after I began responding.

Lianaar wrote...
On that note, if you couldn't relate to Hawke's story and you didn't have the feeling of being involved, that can not be argud, because that is a personal, subjective matter. I felt in touch with the story and I could relate, also a personal and subjective matter. I merely request that you claim there is no story, merely that you didn't see the story others enjoyed. Just like I accept you didn't enjoy the story I found.

I don't begrudge you or anyone from having enjoyed the game, or feeling connected to the events.  It's not my favorite game ever, but I don't hate it.  It's okay.  I tried to feel connected, I really did.  It just didn't work.  I kept seeing too many holes, too little interaction with people, to feel that connection.  But that's personal opinion, yes.

I also don't claim there's no story.  What I claim is that Hawke is not the star of this story, or more poperly that this is not Hawke's story.  I claim that this is the story of the events leading up to the Kirkwall Circle rebellion, which led to the rebellion of Circles throughout Thedas, and that Hawke was simply someone there during the events, not the cause of any of them.

Modifié par TJPags, 27 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[MKDAWUSS]

TJPags wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

TJPags wrote...What defense did I give Anders, exactly?  I'm not sure at all what you mean by this . . .

Hawke, Aveline and Varric all ensured that Templars are not that attentive toward Anders. Being friend of the Champion hold many people back from reporting to the Templars (just think on Fenris and Sebastian, naming your closest companions). Aveline also had a banter with Anders about the Guard and mages, and how she doesn't report him, while she should as per her duty. Varric is keeping the Merchant's Guild, the Coterie and the Carta from his doors. I would say this is pretty good defense.

Okay, now I see what you mean.

And no offense, but I think that's a crock of nug droppings.

All that influence didn't do anything to help Bethany, after all.

So I'm expected to believe everyone extended themselves to protect Anders from the Templars and not Bethany?  That's . . . . .yea, sorry, can't accept that.

Anders had plot armor.  He was needed to blow up thr Chantry.

It still could have worked, I suppose, given his history of escape attempts from the Circle.

[Lianaar]

TJPags wrote...
All that influence didn't do anything to help Bethany, after all.

Aside from the fact that you haven't been home, nor was Varric for a long while, you have not been a Champion then, it was still Bartrand leading the house of Varric and Bethany was not an abomination, so her role in the circle was less scary then Anders. Not to mention that Bethany was ambiguous on the circle, at times she did express views that maybe being in the circle would be better then running, but she kept running as she didn't want to appear ungrateful.  Oh right and Aveline isn't Guard Captain yet, is she? Suddenly I am not sure when she became captain...

Modifié par Lianaar, 27 mars 2011 - 09:20 .

[Lithuasil]

TJPags wrote...

Okay, now I see what you mean.

And no offense, but I think that's a crock of nug droppings.

All that influence didn't do anything to help Bethany, after all.

So I'm expected to believe everyone extended themselves to protect Anders from the Templars and not Bethany?  That's . . . . .yea, sorry, can't accept that.

Anders had plot armor.  He was needed to blow up thr Chantry.

You do of course realize, that when it became uncertain whether hawke would come back from the deep roads or not, bethany turned herself in, precisely so her family can stop bending over backwards to protect her? (That's how I understood her yelling at me, anyway)
And it's not only Anders - Merill keeps her powers not hidden at all, (building and experementing on a magical artifact in the middle of the city) and Varric and Hawke keep the templars off her.

[Dangerfoot]

I kind of wish they'd stop with all the "most important person in the universe" crap. Hawke obviously wasn't very important, but the game wanted you to believe he was. I want to play a story where I get to actually prove to the NPCs that I'm worth renown. Like I start out as a lowly peasant and end up becoming a really important figure by making my own choices. This game attempted to do that, but it fell flat because every time it skips forward, you gain status that you personally didn't work for. So now everyone calls you Hawke and respects you, but you don't really get to experience working for that respect.