226 réponses à ce sujet

[Lianaar]

Dangerfoot wrote...
Like I start out as a lowly peasant and end up becoming a really important figure by making my own choices. This game attempted to do that.

For me it was the contrary. For me the game attempted to show that a legend is not necessarily a hero. So what the goal of the game's makers were is subjective to our reading.

[PantheraOnca]

You know what? Upon reflection, I think the most important thing that Hawke did was stopping the Apostitute (can you keep her active and not turn her in/kill her?). Getting abominable snow-templars would have destroyed the templar order in Kirkwall, and it is possible those abominations could have "escaped" to other templar groups seeking "sanctuary" when really they just want to blood mage-ify other circles and maybe try and repeat the process elsewhere.

[Lithuasil]

Dangerfoot wrote...

I kind of wish they'd stop with all the "most important person in the universe" crap. Hawke obviously wasn't very important, but the game wanted you to believe he was. I want to play a story where I get to actually prove to the NPCs that I'm worth renown. Like I start out as a lowly peasant and end up becoming a really important figure by making my own choices. This game attempted to do that, but it fell flat because every time it skips forward, you gain status that you personally didn't work for. So now everyone calls you Hawke and respects you, but you don't really get to experience working for that respect.

I quite liked it the way it worked out here -sure, there's always room for improvement, but it's a big step in the direction I prefer, from previous bioware titles, where the Jedi/Specters/Grey Wardens/whatwastheirnameinNWN basically kidnap you 

[The Angry One]

Spectres don't kidnap you, but Cerberus essentially does.
And no I never liked being associated with a band of terrorists lead by a megalomaniacal crackpot because the plot says so.

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Okay, now I see what you mean.

And no offense, but I think that's a crock of nug droppings.

All that influence didn't do anything to help Bethany, after all.

So I'm expected to believe everyone extended themselves to protect Anders from the Templars and not Bethany?  That's . . . . .yea, sorry, can't accept that.

Anders had plot armor.  He was needed to blow up thr Chantry.

You do of course realize, that when it became uncertain whether hawke would come back from the deep roads or not, bethany turned herself in, precisely so her family can stop bending over backwards to protect her? (That's how I understood her yelling at me, anyway)
And it's not only Anders - Merill keeps her powers not hidden at all, (building and experementing on a magical artifact in the middle of the city) and Varric and Hawke keep the templars off her.

Nop, don't realize that at all.  Do realize that Bethany had expressed thoughts about it being better if she was in the Circle, but that she wouldn't make her families sacrifice meaningless.  Which, even if Hawke didn't come back, would have meant leaving her mother on her own, all her actions meaningless. 

I took Bethany yelling at me to be because she didn't want me starting a fight in Gamlen's house about this - in other words, you tried Hawke, but they caught me anyway - don't make it any worse, please.

[Dangerfoot]

Lithuasil wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

I kind of wish they'd stop with all the "most important person in the universe" crap. Hawke obviously wasn't very important, but the game wanted you to believe he was. I want to play a story where I get to actually prove to the NPCs that I'm worth renown. Like I start out as a lowly peasant and end up becoming a really important figure by making my own choices. This game attempted to do that, but it fell flat because every time it skips forward, you gain status that you personally didn't work for. So now everyone calls you Hawke and respects you, but you don't really get to experience working for that respect.

I quite liked it the way it worked out here -sure, there's always room for improvement, but it's a big step in the direction I prefer, from previous bioware titles, where the Jedi/Specters/Grey Wardens/whatwastheirnameinNWN basically kidnap you 

Yeah I never liked that much either, it's a lazy way of making your character awesome and amazing. Now everyone can go "holy crap you're a [enter elite team]" No matter how you act or how little you do to deserve praise.

[Thiefy]

varric is an unreliable narrator. sure we control everything as a player but in terms of plot, it's really all varric and what he is saying, not what actually happened.

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

Spectres don't kidnap you, but Cerberus essentially does.
And no I never liked being associated with a band of terrorists lead by a megalomaniacal crackpot because the plot says so.

To be fair, Cerberus essentially spends a truckload of money on you, and lets you loose - the worst offenders imho are the gray wardens - I mean, in the best outcome, Duncan blatantly exploits your current misery, rather then helping you, and then threatens you into joining at knifepoint.
Which is a bit of a dealbreaker, because the entire rest of the plot relies on me feeling any whatsoever obligation towards that organization :|

[Lianaar]

TJPags wrote...I took Bethany yelling at me to be because she didn't want me starting a fight in Gamlen's house about this - in other words, you tried Hawke, but they caught me anyway - don't make it any worse, please.

The codex entry reveals that Bethany did seek the Circle and information after her being member of the Circle also confirms that she isn't opposed to the circle. Could they have provided this information more openly and less hidenly? Certainly. Wether she went on her free will is questionable, but she was ambiguous, she had enough of running, she wanted to have peace, and she didn't want to desert her family who sacrificed so much for her. 

[Foolsfolly]

You know, when I first played the game I had no idea about how the story was going to go.

But I had an idea. The whole idea came from what one of the devs said before the game came out. About how the story was about how Hawke became Champion and how it doesn't say who proclaimed him Champion. I originally thought the government would or Hawke would assert himself into the role of Champion.

But upon playing the game certain missions, like the Magistrates Orders and the mercenary quest where you kill that lord and his sons vow vengeance on you, had me thinking of another way. I thought your actions to help the nobles would have them love you and raise you to Champion whereas helping the little man would get the people of Kirkwall championing you.

But the whole thing happens regardless of your actions. You can't not stop the qunari attack. There's no choice in the matter and you're proclaimed Champion regardless of choice as well.

Totally.....not interesting this way. It would have been nice if there was an organization/caste approval tally in the back of the game like games like Morrowind had. Then your actions would lead to you as the Champion either for the people appointed by the people or a Champion for the nobles.

It would have been more interesting.

Also, there's an awful lot of quests in Act 1 that you'd think would have repercussions in later acts that actually go nowhere.

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...


To be fair, Cerberus essentially spends a truckload of money on you, and lets you loose

Yeah loose on a ship full of spy cameras so the Illusive Man can watch me in the shower... creepy pervert.

- the worst offenders imho are the gray wardens - I mean, in the best outcome, Duncan blatantly exploits your current misery, rather then helping you, and then threatens you into joining at knifepoint.
Which is a bit of a dealbreaker, because the entire rest of the plot relies on me feeling any whatsoever obligation towards that organization :|

Well desperate times, you know. And Duncan does single you out for your ability and all.
Besides how can you say no to someone who says "Darkspawn" the way Duncan does?

[Foolsfolly]

Well desperate times, you know. And Duncan does single you out for your ability and all

Unless you're a Dalish Elf in which case he strings you along saying the Joining will cure you without telling you it'll likely kill you faster.

...which, I guess, would be a cure in its own way.

[Lianaar]

The Angry One wrote...
Well desperate times, you know. And Duncan does single you out for your ability and all.

My Dalish Elf warden wasn't impressed by the company Jory, Alistair and who else? 

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

Well desperate times, you know. And Duncan does single you out for your ability and all.
Besides how can you say no to someone who says "Darkspawn" the way Duncan does?

I can pretty easy, when said person wants me to join the gray wardens during a blight, I.e commit a very elaborate form of suicide.
What makes it worse, is based on the two origins I played (elf mage / human noble), one has no incentive to leave home in the first place ( you can even say that you don't want to, but irving shoves you out with a broomstick), and the other has plenty of reason (reclaim my heritage, save my brother, have rendon howe punished) and opportunity (a camp full of noblemen I probably know on first name basis, with a clear opposition to the gray wardens, namely Loghain) to escape duncans blackmailing.
But no, I even have to play his spiritual sucessor, after the guy got himself killed :|

[TJPags]

Lianaar wrote...

TJPags wrote...I took Bethany yelling at me to be because she didn't want me starting a fight in Gamlen's house about this - in other words, you tried Hawke, but they caught me anyway - don't make it any worse, please.

The codex entry reveals that Bethany did seek the Circle and information after her being member of the Circle also confirms that she isn't opposed to the circle. Could they have provided this information more openly and less hidenly? Certainly. Wether she went on her free will is questionable, but she was ambiguous, she had enough of running, she wanted to have peace, and she didn't want to desert her family who sacrificed so much for her. 

The codex entry reveals no such thing.

If Bethany was not taken into the Deep Roads Expedition
Bethany communicates often with her family since entering the Circle, and she is adjusting to her new life with ease. For the first time, she can study magic without watching over her shoulder. After passing her much-delayed Harrowing, she took a senior position within the Circle, teaching and mentoring the newest apprentices. Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who beleieve they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic. However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly.

I agree she seems to like it there, but it doesn't say she sought it out herself.

[Lianaar]

Spiritual successor? You don't need to like Duncan, Alistair loves him for the both of you (not saying his love for Duncan as a father figure wasn't valid). You can do it for multiple reasons, like.. when you accept being a Grey Warden you do not know that the Order happens to be dead within a few weeks. You can see them as the heros that'll save Ferelden doing King Cailen a favor. That's a pretty good supporter for you to have in the long run. You can also be selfless, and decide to do it for the good of the people, or for the life and land for those nobles, you know by first name. There can be many reasons aside from liking or disliking Duncan.

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...

Spiritual successor? You don't need to like Duncan, Alistair loves him for the both of you (not saying his love for Duncan as a father figure wasn't valid). You can do it for multiple reasons, like.. when you accept being a Grey Warden you do not know that the Order happens to be dead within a few weeks. You can see them as the heros that'll save Ferelden doing King Cailen a favor. That's a pretty good supporter for you to have in the long run. You can also be selfless, and decide to do it for the good of the people, or for the life and land for those nobles, you know by first name. There can be many reasons aside from liking or disliking Duncan.

I'm having a somewhat hard time, seeing the appeal of giving up my status, heritage and life as a noblewoman in favor of becoming a soldier for an order whos entire purpose is to fight creepy monsters, and whose defining act of heroism so far was watching my family get killed, and blackmailing me before my mothers corpse was cold 

[The Angry One]

To be fair, Duncan was perfectly willing to escort mother out of there too... she just had to be an idiot about it.

[Lianaar]

BETHANY HAWKE
"I was just hoping it would be different here in Kirkwall. We're not running away. We're coming home."

Even growing up as an apostate has not dimmed Bethany's faith and sunny nature, thuogh it has colored her view of the world. Bethany wishes above all else to be "normal." She appreciates the trouble her family took to keep her out of the Circle, but the running, hiding, and constant fear have taken their toll. Though she would never admit so to her mother - not after all she sacrificed to protect her - Bethany sometimes wonders whether she would be better off in the Circle. At least there she would be with other mages, confident she'd be serving the will of the Maker and not defying a millennium of religious teachings. Still, her first loyalty is to her family; despite her doubts, she gladly embraces her magic if it keeps them safe. She has a teasing rivalry with her twin, Carver, and greatly respect (enter first name of your Hawke here).

This is the first codex entry about Bethany in my journal.

Modifié par Lianaar, 27 mars 2011 - 09:58 .

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...
I'm having a somewhat hard time, seeing the appeal of giving up my status, heritage and life as a noblewoman in favor of becoming a soldier for an order whos entire purpose is to fight creepy monsters, and whose defining act of heroism so far was watching my family get killed, and blackmailing me before my mothers corpse was cold 

Right, aside from the fact that it was the Howe that caused your family's fall and he has the support of Loghain, who is second in rank in Ferelden, a bloody hero no less. And if you do politics (as nobles usually do if they want to survive), then you must realise that fighting against Loghain is not that easy. You need strong supporters. Eg a King?

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

To be fair, Duncan was perfectly willing to escort mother out of there too... she just had to be an idiot about it.

I still feel Loghain, desperately trying to discredit the grey wardens, would have just loved to take me to the king and have me testify under tears, that that guy with the funny beard stood by as my family, and even my nephew got murdered, and then told me he'd leave me to howe's soldiers if I didn't swear to join his stupid gang.

[TJPags]

Lianaar wrote...

BETHANY HAWKE
"I was just hoping it would be different here in Kirkwall. We're not running away. We're coming home."

Even growing up as an apostate has not dimmed Bethany's faith and sunny nature, thuogh it has colored her view of the world. Bethany wishes above all else to be "normal." She appreciates the trouble her family took to keep her out of the Circle, but the running, hiding, and constant fear have taken their toll. Though she would never admit so to her mother - not after all she sacrificed to protect her - Bethany sometimes wonders whether she would be better off in the Circle. At least there she would be with other mages, confident she'd be serving the will of the Maker and not defying a millennium of religious teachings. Still, her first loyalty is to her family; despite her doubts, she gladly embraces her magic if it keeps them safe. She has a teasing rivalry with her twin, Carver, and greatly respect (enter first name of your Hawke here).

This is the first codex entry about Bethany in my journal.

Saw that one too.  But it doesn't say she sought entry into the Kirkwall Circle on her own.

[TheBlackBaron]

Lithuasil wrote...

I'm having a somewhat hard time, seeing the appeal of giving up my status, heritage and life as a noblewoman in favor of becoming a soldier for an order whos entire purpose is to fight creepy monsters, and whose defining act of heroism so far was watching my family get killed, and blackmailing me before my mothers corpse was cold 

All that status, heritage, etc.? That's gone. Howe has Loghain's support since he viewed Bryce as being in cahoots with the Orlesians, so there'll be no help from him, and no help from the other nobles either without the Wardens around to rally the Bannorn under Eamon's flag (or heal Eamon in the first place). Attempting to flee is either going to get you killed or force you to enact your own personal version of Alistair's drunken exile fate. 

In other words, your options are a lot fewer than you seem to think. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 27 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Lithuasil]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
In other words, your options are a lot fewer than you seem to think. 

Which I perceive differently - having me ally myself to Loghain in that camp, would have given him a massive upper hand in convincing the king to change his plans, *and* could have potentially prevented the civil unrest that happens after Ostagar.

It's of course just me, but as a daughter of noble heritage, roughly age 14-18 at that point, I'd much rather suck it up, and become a political tool to someone I don't like, then becoming a soldier and get eaten by darkspawn. 

[Lianaar]

TJPags wrote...
Saw that one too.  But it doesn't say she sought entry into the Kirkwall Circle on her own.

No, it puts her other statements in a different light. It shows that she was preferring the circle, however she was ambiguous. It seems that her family was not correct to keep her from the Circle, because all the good will was doing more harm then good for her. While she is utterly thankful for all the love she got, she found her place in the Circle, she supports the Circle and finds it worse to live as an apostate.
So based on the information  claiming she wanted to go to the Circle and gave herself up is just as valid as claiming she just yelled to stop the family from acting in the 'oh you tried, but you failed' sort of way.