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[TJPags]

Lianaar wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Saw that one too.  But it doesn't say she sought entry into the Kirkwall Circle on her own.

No, it puts her other statements in a different light. It shows that she was preferring the circle, however she was ambiguous. It seems that her family was not correct to keep her from the Circle, because all the good will was doing more harm then good for her. While she is utterly thankful for all the love she got, she found her place in the Circle, she supports the Circle and finds it worse to live as an apostate.
So based on the information  claiming she wanted to go to the Circle and gave herself up is just as valid as claiming she just yelled to stop the family from acting in the 'oh you tried, but you failed' sort of way.

Okay, that's fair.  So long as we agree that, whichever we decide or whichever we think, it's speculation, not fact.  That was my only issue with that implication - it came off (not by you, by the other poster) as if it was fact.

[Lianaar]

TJPags wrote...
Okay, that's fair.  So long as we agree that, whichever we decide or whichever we think, it's speculation, not fact.  That was my only issue with that implication - it came off (not by you, by the other poster) as if it was fact.

It wasn't me saying that she gave herself up. That was someone else. I merely said that she didn't seem to oppose the Circle and she seemed to think she might have a more restive life there. She seeks peace for herself and her family. But family comes first. The writers know the fact about her motivations and decisions. We merely have perceptions based on our experiences.

[TheBlackBaron]

Lithuasil wrote...

Which I perceive differently - having me ally myself to Loghain in that camp, would have given him a massive upper hand in convincing the king to change his plans, *and* could have potentially prevented the civil unrest that happens after Ostagar.

Why would Loghain ally himself with you? He knows for a fact that Bryce is having under-the-table dealings with the Orlesians (which is canon), and although it's just trade and such in his paranoia he's extrapolating this to mean your family is a threat to Ferelden, which is why he signed off on Howe's coup in the first place. I doubt he has anything against the Human Noble personally, but he's certainly got no qualms about letting him or her die either. 

The other two things don't make sense either. Cailan is already following Loghain's plans (assuming the betrayel was indeed premediated - see Knight of Phoenix's analysis of the battle for why that might not be so), and Loghain is again more likely to view you as a threat to Anora being put on the throne with himself as Reagant.

At this point in the story, that entire plan is a wash. It only works a year down the road because of what the Warden has been able to accomplish and thus gain Loghain's respect. 

It's of course just me, but as a daughter of noble heritage, roughly age 14-18 at that point, I'd much rather suck it up, and become a political tool to someone I don't like, then becoming a soldier and get eaten by darkspawn. 

The HN is actually in their early twenties. You can tell because Oren calls you old. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 27 mars 2011 - 10:25 .

[Lithuasil]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Why would Loghain ally himself with you? He knows for a fact that Bryce is having under-the-table dealings with the Orlesians (which is canon), and although it's just trade and such in his paranoia he's extrapolating this to mean your family is a threat to Ferelden, which is why he signed off on Howe's coup in the first place. I doubt he has anything against the Human Noble personally, but he's certainly got no qualms about letting him or her die either. 

The other two things don't make sense either. Cailan is already following Loghain's plans (assuming the betrayel was indeed premediated - see Knight of Phoenix's analysis of the battle for why that might not be so), and Loghain is again more likely to view you as a threat to Anora being put on the throne with himself as Reagant.

At this point in the story, that entire plan is a wash. It only works a year down the road because of what the Warden has been able to accomplish and thus gain Loghain's respect. 

He'd ally himself, because having the daughter of someone who you just couped, as a political puppet gives him the legitimacy, he otherwise lacks, and would therefore likely prevent the other nobles from arguing.

He'd ally himself because (in my perception anyway) at that point, he tries to convince Cailan to follow him, as opposed to being blinded by tales about the glory of the gray wardens. Having someone of enough status to be trustworthy testify against that glory, could potentially help him convince Cailan to a heelface turn. (regardless of whether what I'd tell the king would actually be true)

At that point, before ostagar, I'm in no way a threat to him (having pretty much lost everything), but a great potential tool to further both his main goals (keeping ferelden united, and convincing Cailan the orlesians are the real threat, and the gray wardens are traitors). So he has nothing to loose, but lots to gain, just as I'd have a lot more to gain by becoming his puppet, then I could realistically expect to gain from being a warden.

[TheBlackBaron]

Lithuasil wrote...

He'd ally himself, because having the daughter of someone who you just couped, as a political puppet gives him the legitimacy, he otherwise lacks, and would therefore likely prevent the other nobles from arguing.

No more legitimacy than he already has with Anora being queen and himself being the great Hero of the River Dane. 

He'd ally himself because (in my perception anyway) at that point, he tries to convince Cailan to follow him, as opposed to being blinded by tales about the glory of the gray wardens. Having someone of enough status to be trustworthy testify against that glory, could potentially help him convince Cailan to a heelface turn. (regardless of whether what I'd tell the king would actually be true).

Cailan IS following Loghain already. That whole battleplan they've got at Ostagar? Entirely Loghain's doing, and Cailan's already willing to go ahead with it without waiting for the Wardens to arrive from Orlais. 

Again, assuming the betrayel was premediated, and knowing that Loghain likely knew Cailan was strongly considering divorcing Anora and marrying the Empress, nothing you can offer him is going to present a better option that the one he's already decided on. He doesn't just want Cailan to stop worshipping the Wardens, he wants him out of the picture entirely - especially because unlike himself, Cailan is capable of seperating the concepts of "the Wardens" and "the Orlesians", so just discrediting the Wardens isn't going to put him off his own dealings with Orlais. 

At that point, before ostagar, I'm in no way a threat to him (having pretty much lost everything), but a great potential tool to further both his main goals (keeping ferelden united, and convincing Cailan the orlesians are the real threat, and the gray wardens are traitors). So he has nothing to loose, but lots to gain, just as I'd have a lot more to gain by becoming his puppet, then I could realistically expect to gain from being a warden.

He may have nothing to lose, but he has nothing to gain either, and he might as well tie up a loose end that could blow the lid off his own cunning plan.  As for everything else, see above. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 27 mars 2011 - 10:46 .

[Lithuasil]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No more legitimacy than he already has with Anora being queen and himself being the great Hero of the River Dane. 

Having me marry Nathaniel Howe, would actually give him a whole lot more legitimacy, and a legitimacy he doesn't need to back up by force at that. Because Rendon, and by extension the house howe, ruling over Highever would be completely legal, simply through that.

We probably won't agree on the rest, since we perceive it differently - what remains is - as much of a gamble as turning to Loghain would be, it's still better odds then going out into the wilds (and maybe dying), doing some creepy joining ritual, and fighting in the upcoming battle (maybe dying), then leading a soldiers life for a few years (lots of fun for a young noblewoman) and sooner or later certainly dying against the darkspawn. 

[Randy1012]

Lithuasil wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No more legitimacy than he already has with Anora being queen and himself being the great Hero of the River Dane. 

Having me marry Nathaniel Howe, would actually give him a whole lot more legitimacy, and a legitimacy he doesn't need to back up by force at that. Because Rendon, and by extension the house howe, ruling over Highever would be completely legal, simply through that.

It actually wouldn't be legal, because Fergus Cousland was the eldest child and therefore the legal heir to Highever. Marrying Nathaniel to the younger Cousland would have only given Highever to the Howes if Fergus' death was confirmed.

[TheBlackBaron]

Randy1083 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No more legitimacy than he already has with Anora being queen and himself being the great Hero of the River Dane. 

Having me marry Nathaniel Howe, would actually give him a whole lot more legitimacy, and a legitimacy he doesn't need to back up by force at that. Because Rendon, and by extension the house howe, ruling over Highever would be completely legal, simply through that.

It actually wouldn't be legal, because Fergus Cousland was the eldest child and therefore the legal heir to Highever. Marrying Nathaniel to the younger Cousland would have only given Highever to the Howes if Fergus' death was confirmed.

Beat me to it, but yes, that. 

[Randy1012]

Whoops, sorry to steal your thunder, BlackBaron!

[Lithuasil]

Randy1083 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No more legitimacy than he already has with Anora being queen and himself being the great Hero of the River Dane. 

Having me marry Nathaniel Howe, would actually give him a whole lot more legitimacy, and a legitimacy he doesn't need to back up by force at that. Because Rendon, and by extension the house howe, ruling over Highever would be completely legal, simply through that.

It actually wouldn't be legal, because Fergus Cousland was the eldest child and therefore the legal heir to Highever. Marrying Nathaniel to the younger Cousland would have only given Highever to the Howes if Fergus' death was confirmed.

Good point actually, though forgetting about him might be excuseable, seeing how the game did, too :|

That being said it *could* still work, given I'm much more likely to cooperate then he is, and I'm pretty sure Loghain could easily *confirm* his death.
I'm not saying the whole option I'm painting here should've been in the game - my point is just that there should have been some incentive for actually helping the wardens, seeing how all I got, in any origin I played, was incentive to be against them (and legging it in the first possible moment)

[TheBlackBaron]

Randy1083 wrote...

Whoops, sorry to steal your thunder, BlackBaron!

Man, I've been 'd and done :ph34r:ing too many times to care at this point. 

[The Angry One]

Nitpick: More likely you'd be married to Thomas Howe, not Nathaniel.

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

Nitpick: More likely you'd be married to Thomas Howe, not Nathaniel.

Is either of them worse then living in a camp full of (male, middle aged) soldiers, or being eaten by darkspawn? 

[PantheraOnca]

Lithuasil wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No more legitimacy than he already has with Anora being queen and himself being the great Hero of the River Dane. 

Having me marry Nathaniel Howe, would actually give him a whole lot more legitimacy, and a legitimacy he doesn't need to back up by force at that. Because Rendon, and by extension the house howe, ruling over Highever would be completely legal, simply through that.

It actually wouldn't be legal, because Fergus Cousland was the eldest child and therefore the legal heir to Highever. Marrying Nathaniel to the younger Cousland would have only given Highever to the Howes if Fergus' death was confirmed.

Good point actually, though forgetting about him might be excuseable, seeing how the game did, too :|

That being said it *could* still work, given I'm much more likely to cooperate then he is, and I'm pretty sure Loghain could easily *confirm* his death.
I'm not saying the whole option I'm painting here should've been in the game - my point is just that there should have been some incentive for actually helping the wardens, seeing how all I got, in any origin I played, was incentive to be against them (and legging it in the first possible moment)

I think the incentive in most cases is supposed to be gratitude/debt to duncan for getting you out of some @#%$. I never played a dwarf or city-elf origin though, so maybe that's different?

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nitpick: More likely you'd be married to Thomas Howe, not Nathaniel.

Is either of them worse then living in a camp full of (male, middle aged) soldiers, or being eaten by darkspawn? 

No, I just like nitpicking..
Besides to be fair Duncan never made you have to hang around the rest of the scruffy male Wardens. Possibly because they were drinking Cailan under the table, but still.

[TheBlackBaron]

Lithuasil wrote...
That being said it *could* still work, given I'm much more likely to cooperate then he is, and I'm pretty sure Loghain could easily *confirm* his death.

Ferghus is apparantly beyond contact at this point, having been out scouting in the Wilds. He may be missing, but until he's actually confirmed as dead he's still the reightful heir. 

Sure, Loghain could just say "**** it, kill him if he comes back", but that would rather undermine the legitimicy he's trying to attain in this theoretical situation, wouldn't it? 

Lithuasil wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nitpick: More likely you'd be married to Thomas Howe, not Nathaniel.

Is either of them worse then living in a camp full of (male, middle aged) soldiers, or being eaten by darkspawn? 

Yes. 

Well, Thomas would be, at least.

Nate is still off in the Free Marches doing noble archery things, so that's kind of irrelevant actually. Plus it interferes with shipping him with Bethany. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 27 mars 2011 - 11:20 .

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...

I think the incentive in most cases is supposed to be gratitude/debt to duncan for getting you out of some @#%$. I never played a dwarf or city-elf origin though, so maybe that's different?

Not really different. Play the city elf origin though, with a female pc it's arguably the best origin imho - point being - he literally goes "well, I could get you out of here, but I'll only do it if you come join the wardens" on everyone but mage and dailish. He more or less ignores a mages disconsent, and the dailish is sick.
At the very best, depending on how you want to look at it, he's either exploiting your current misery, or outright blackmailing you to come with him.

[Weskerr]

WingsandRings wrote...

I actually get the sense that Hawke's "role" was all just the myth that Cassandra and the chantry had. When Cassandra stops Varric, it's often to say that she's sure the Champion did x on purpose, or knew y was down there, or recruited z because Hawke knew bla bla bla, when in actuality was all just accidental.

I seriously came away from it feeling that Hawke's "importance" to the story and to the future of Thedas was all a big misunderstanding...not that Hawke didn't do good things (stopping the Qunari invasion) but he/she is credited with things that were actually beyond his/her control. So maybe what Cassandra got out of it was that all the blame for the chaos can't be laid at Hawke's door? Going to have to do a little more soul searching about the role of the chantry/templars/mages in all of the chaos, instead of just pointing the finger at Hawke?

*shrug* I dunno.

Ths explanation is very close to what I think about Hawk's role. I take exception with your belief, however, that he was just a man who was there at all the right times. I think the story shows rather well that Hawk was an exceptional person, and that a combination of luck, skill, and personility not only allowed him to survive the story's events, but to shape them to a certain extent as well. In other words, he was the right man at the right time. No one else could have accomplished what he did if put in his place.

[Lithuasil]

TheBlackBaron wrote... 

Sure, Loghain could just say "**** it, kill him if he comes back", but that would rather undermine the legitimicy he's trying to attain in this theoretical situation, wouldn't it? 

He doesn't have to do it in the middle of denerim, you know

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Yes. 

Well, Thomas would be, at least.

Nate is still off in the Free Marches doing noble archery things, so that's kind of irrelevant actually. Plus it interferes with shipping him with Bethany. 

I can ship myself with whom ever I want (and how would he be worse, given I have no idea who that actually is )

[TheBlackBaron]

Lithuasil wrote...

Not really different. Play the city elf origin though, with a female pc it's arguably the best origin imho - point being - he literally goes "well, I could get you out of here, but I'll only do it if you come join the wardens" on everyone but mage and dailish. He more or less ignores a mages disconsent, and the dailish is sick.

What? Joining the Wardens IS the only way he can get the PC out of their situation. You seem to be overestimating the Warden's power - the only reason he can override local laws and punishments is for conscription. He can't just tell whoever is representing the local authority to not punish somebody.

Considering that for Tabris, Brosca, and Amell/Surana their options are join the Grey Wardens or get tossed into prison (Aeonar in particular sounds pretty horriffic for the mages), he's doing them a huge favor. Aeducan, Cousland, and Mahariel are all facing impending death unless they join the Wardens - Aeducan in particular should be very grateful to Duncan. Mahariel only gets part of the truth, but it's still the only way they'll survive. So that leaves just Cousland as the closest thing to blackmail, and even then, you have to be a pretty huge dick to spit in the face of the guy without whom you're a bloodstain on the floor of the Castle Cousland pantry. 

[TheBlackBaron]

Lithuasil wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote... 

Sure, Loghain could just say "**** it, kill him if he comes back", but that would rather undermine the legitimicy he's trying to attain in this theoretical situation, wouldn't it? 

He doesn't have to do it in the middle of denerim, you know

"Rightful heir to Teyrnir of Highever dies in mysterious circumstances, inheritance passes to sister who's married to puppet of Loghain" sounds rather suspicious, fwiw. 

[The Angry One]

Well as a mage if you side with the First Enchanter you basically have no reason to fear any punishment aside from Graegoir's out of character rant.

Modifié par The Angry One, 27 mars 2011 - 11:34 .

[Deztyn]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Not really different. Play the city elf origin though, with a female pc it's arguably the best origin imho - point being - he literally goes "well, I could get you out of here, but I'll only do it if you come join the wardens" on everyone but mage and dailish. He more or less ignores a mages disconsent, and the dailish is sick.

What? Joining the Wardens IS the only way he can get the PC out of their situation. You seem to be overestimating the Warden's power - the only reason he can override local laws and punishments is for conscription. He can't just tell whoever is representing the local authority to not punish somebody.

Considering that for Tabris, Brosca, and Amell/Surana their options are join the Grey Wardens or get tossed into prison (Aeonar in particular sounds pretty horriffic for the mages), he's doing them a huge favor. Aeducan, Cousland, and Mahariel are all facing impending death unless they join the Wardens - Aeducan in particular should be very grateful to Duncan. Mahariel only gets part of the truth, but it's still the only way they'll survive. So that leaves just Cousland as the closest thing to blackmail, and even then, you have to be a pretty huge dick to spit in the face of the guy without whom you're a bloodstain on the floor of the Castle Cousland pantry. 

And since big bro and the king are all down in Ostagar the Human Noble has a good motive to play along until she gets there, at the very least.

[Foolsfolly]

I love how this thread finds talking about Origins more interesting than DA2.

[Lithuasil]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
What? Joining the Wardens IS the only way he can get the PC out of their situation. You seem to be overestimating the Warden's power - the only reason he can override local laws and punishments is for conscription. He can't just tell whoever is representing the local authority to not punish somebody.

Considering that for Tabris, Brosca, and Amell/Surana their options are join the Grey Wardens or get tossed into prison (Aeonar in particular sounds pretty horriffic for the mages), he's doing them a huge favor. Aeducan, Cousland, and Mahariel are all facing impending death unless they join the Wardens - Aeducan in particular should be very grateful to Duncan. Mahariel only gets part of the truth, but it's still the only way they'll survive. So that leaves just Cousland as the closest thing to blackmail, and even then, you have to be a pretty huge dick to spit in the face of the guy without whom you're a bloodstain on the floor of the Castle Cousland pantry. 

That's true for city elf/dwarf commoner.
Surana/Amell is a whole different matter all together. When you go tell Irving about Jowans plan (which I did) Gregoir doesn't actually press charges - it's just that even selecting "But this is my home, I don't want to leave", Irving goes all "It's a great chance (to get horribly killed) my child, I'll pretend I didn't hear you".

Which is the biggest flaw the entire story has at this point - being a warden is a death sentence. You give up all status, become a soldier, and fight darkspawn until they finally get you. By and large, short of submitting to the qun, gray warden is (one of the) the worst thing to be in Thedas.
On the other hand, aside from Dailish (who is sick) and maybe dwarf commoner, all Origins have (depending on how much you messed up) opportunity to find a place to live, or fix the mess they left (running to the dales, running to the nearest circle, running to Loghain, running to harrowmont). None of these are nice fates, but they're better then signing your own death sentence.