103 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

You can't blame Duncan for not telling anybody. First of all, the Archdemon had not shown itself around the time of Ostagar. Second of all, Duncan knew Grey Wardens had been summoned from Orlais. He had no idea that Loghead was going to ban Grey Wardens in Ferelden and turn them away at the borders. There was no pressing need to tell any of the fresh recruits how to kill the Archdemon, and even if he had died at Ostagar, he believed more Grey Wardens would inevitably come in and take over for him.

[Theronyll Itholien]

RunCDFirst wrote...

chiliztri wrote...
At Ostagar there was no time, really. He doesn't really tell you anything about being a Grey Warden.

The real question is why didn't he tell Alistair, who had been a Grey Warden for 6 months. But then, I can think of a few reason as to why he didn't tell him.

You would think that this would be a very important piece of information to pass on though - say, in the unfortunate circumstance that you (Duncan) happen to die before slaying the archdemon. I guess you could argue that he didn't 'sense' the archdemon in the vicinity but they were going into battle and you should at least prepare your Grey Wardens for the worst possible scenario seeing that they are the only line of defence against the Blight.

Seriously, this whole part is simply extremely stupid storywise. Extremely stupid. Seriously, information like this should be COMMON KNOWLEDGE even OUTSIDE the Gray Warden circle. Without this knowledge a lucky and brave non-gray-warden could manage to kill the demon and everyone would think it's time for happy-time. Unprepared that the tainted Old God is about to pop alive right there and then again. Or whatever exactly happens when a non-gray-warden kills it....

Modifié par Theronyll Itholien, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:50 .

[chiliztri]

RunCDFirst wrote...

You would think that this would be a very important piece of information to pass on though - say, in the unfortunate circumstance that you (Duncan) happen to die before slaying the archdemon. I guess you could argue that he didn't 'sense' the archdemon in the vicinity but they were going into battle and you should at least prepare your Grey Wardens for the worst possible scenario seeing that they are the only line of defence against the Blight.

As I said before, at Ostagar there really wasn't time. Battle was imminent, there wasn't much time for pleasantries. Not to mention you just saw 2 fellow recruits not make it through the Joining.

I don't think Duncan thought telling the new Grey Wardens would be relevant, seeing as how they were the least likely to have to slay the Archdemon.

[RunCDFirst]

The Angry One wrote...
Also, he couldn't yell out "STOP!" before you kill Loghain or make an issue of it with Alistair and whisper in your ear? Sure.

I imagine the Queen would like to know what the Grey Warden's are whispering about concerning the fate of her father. Not to mention the nobles probably wouldn't be too impressed.

And, really, why would he feel the overwhelming need to tell you then? In his eyes, there's already three Grey Wardens. He's looking for a fourth to cover his bases but probably feels that there are enough present that he doesn't have to discuss the archdemon that very instant.

Plus, he is an idiot.

[Theronyll Itholien]

RunCDFirst wrote...

To be fair, there is more than one Templar present during a Harrowing.

..................................................................................................................................your point?

[The Angry One]

On killing the Archdemon; everyone KNOWS that only Grey Wardens can kill one, this is NOT a secret.
HOW they kill one is the secret.

RunCDFirst wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Also, he couldn't yell out "STOP!" before you kill Loghain or make an issue of it with Alistair and whisper in your ear? Sure.

I imagine the Queen would like to know what the Grey Warden's are whispering about concerning the fate of her father. Not to mention the nobles probably wouldn't be too impressed.

I imagine she'd rather what they discuss lead to Loghain living rather than his head decorating the floor.
The Grey Wardens have their secrets and everyone knows that.

And, really, why would he feel the overwhelming need to tell you then? In his eyes, there's already three Grey Wardens. He's looking for a fourth to cover his bases but probably feels that there are enough present that he doesn't have to discuss the archdemon that very instant.

I would think it'd be a rather apt option when Alistair flies off the handle, as in "well, make him a warden and he'll die so we live!"

Plus, he is an idiot.

Yes.

[The Angry One]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

To be fair, there is more than one Templar present during a Harrowing.

..................................................................................................................................your point?

The Templar commander would've ordered him to strike, and he wouldn't have questioned it.

[RunCDFirst]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

To be fair, there is more than one Templar present during a Harrowing.

..................................................................................................................................your point?

Why tell a recruit what a possession looks like when the Templar Commander is present in the room? All the recruit really needs to know is attack when the Commander attacks.

I suppose the same argument can be used for Duncan not telling the PC at Ostagar. As for not telling people in general that an archdemon has to be slain by someone who has to go through a ritual that has a high chance of killing them just so they can sacrifice their life by killing an archdemon... I think the argument that it stunts recruit is valid enough.

When volunteering for the military, recruiters don't make it a habit of display all the delightfully gruesome ways our soldiers can meet death out on the modern battlefield. And the expectation then is that you'll eventually come home alive.

[Reiella]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sure Riordan realised it was a bad idea a little before he became pavement spaghetti.
Just a hunch mind you.

Also, he couldn't yell out "STOP!" before you kill Loghain or make an issue of it with Alistair and whisper in your ear? Sure.

Well could there.  Of course, that goes back to the assumption that he believed both parties already knew.

I can see the assumption that they don't believe him to be a person capable of making that sacrifice, and given it was just another Warden he was fighting who makes that call.  I can see that assumption passing.  "Only a Grey Warden can stop a blight" is not that drastically different from "Only a Grey Warden can sacrifice themself to stop a blight."  It would possibly make a difference, but only if as a Warden you've not come to accept that you will need to sacrifice yourself.  And if Alistair [and the Player] weren't Wardens themselves, I think that Riordan would have forced the issue with Conscription.

Here's a fun supposition, would Duncan have taken Loghain into the Wardens?  I suspect he would have, he was a person of skill, pushed into a corner.  The same as the other 6 origins.  Alistair [and possibly the PC] are just not as single-mindedly driven as Duncan/the Wardens as a whole.

[David Gaider]

 Yes... also known as "the plot".

God forbid that things happen in a plot, and we go around "forcing" the plot to, like, happen and stuff.

[LaztRezort]

David Gaider wrote...

 Yes... also known as "the plot".

God forbid that things happen in a plot, and we go around "forcing" the plot to, like, happen and stuff.

Bah!  What do writers know of plot, anyway?

[YoniSM]

sparkyclarky24 wrote...

we could have got loghain to give it the final blow.

Oh but we did. And the only person who deserved to become a hero did become a hero.

[The Angry One]

David Gaider wrote...

 Yes... also known as "the plot".

God forbid that things happen in a plot, and we go around "forcing" the plot to, like, happen and stuff.

Well when you craft a plot with so many choices, people tend to get miffed when an option they think should be there.. well.. isn't.
Especially when it means consorting with an evil witch!! 

[Haasth]

David Gaider wrote...

 Yes... also known as "the plot".

God forbid that things happen in a plot, and we go around "forcing" the plot to, like, happen and stuff.

Such a horrible and disturbing thought.

[The Angry One]

YoniSM wrote...

sparkyclarky24 wrote...

we could have got loghain to give it the final blow.

Oh but we did. And the only person who deserved to become a hero did become a hero.

I believe he means doing so without pissing off Alistair.

[David Gaider]

The Angry One wrote...
Well when you craft a plot with so many choices, people tend to get miffed when an option they think should be there.. well.. isn't.
Especially when it means consorting with an evil witch!! 

Mmm. Terrible, yes.

"Because I wanna" is a truly moving reason, I'm sure.

[Theronyll Itholien]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

To be fair, there is more than one Templar present during a Harrowing.

..................................................................................................................................your point?

Why tell a recruit what a possession looks like when the Templar Commander is present in the room? All the recruit really needs to know is attack when the Commander attacks.

I suppose the same argument can be used for Duncan not telling the PC at Ostagar. As for not telling people in general that an archdemon has to be slain by someone who has to go through a ritual that has a high chance of killing them just so they can sacrifice their life by killing an archdemon... I think the argument that it stunts recruit is valid enough.

When volunteering for the military, recruiters don't make it a habit of display all the delightfully gruesome ways our soldiers can meet death out on the modern battlefield. And the expectation then is that you'll eventually come home alive.

In the military, however, you are being teached how best to recognize the enemy. Trust me, I know.

Furthermore, that Cullen didn't just receive his armor in the mailbox with a letter saying  'Cya at the Circle!'. Like Alistair he was trained to become a Templar at a very young age. So this, again, prompts the question: What the hell are they teaching those kids if not how to recognize an abomination?! Which is right about the sole purpose of being a templar -- and hunting mages, yes.

Oh, btw, this also promps another question: What about that full-plate heavy armor they're wearing while they are the hunters of mages? What good does that heavy stuff do against magic? They would be slower, and less likely to dodge a freakin' fireball. It's unpractical and although they look great... it doesn't really make sense.

[The Angry One]

David Gaider wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Well when you craft a plot with so many choices, people tend to get miffed when an option they think should be there.. well.. isn't.
Especially when it means consorting with an evil witch!! 

Mmm. Terrible, yes.

"Because I wanna" is a truly moving reason, I'm sure.

Hey I'm merely pointing out people's reasoning. I myself am not that peturbed by it. Well aside from the evil witch business. But hey that at least can be skipped. Victory! No demon baby for you! Ha-ha!

[EmperorSahlertz]

You do realize that during the Landsmeet Riordan was still under the impression that both you and Alistair knew one of the Wardens would have to die right? So exactly why would he tell you there? He already thought you knew and was perhaps indirectly trying to hint to both you and Alistair that Loghain could be used as the sacrifice?



About Duncan not telling you is quite simple. You don't tell a demoralized raw recruit that no matter what he is going to die in some horrible way, by either going to the deep roads or being "possesed" by an Archdemon.... Unless ofc you want to **** him more up than he already is. Besides what good would that knowledge do you anyway? You were in no way intended to slay the Archdemon (I would guess Duncan was), so perhaps Duncan saw it fitting you get used to the idea of dying within thirty years because of the taint inside of you, before he also told you of the utter destruction of your soul in case of the Archdemon slaying.....



About the Templar thing: I doubt the first thing the Templar instructor does is kicking the classroom door open and show you pictures of all the imaginable horrible abominations out there.....

[Theronyll Itholien]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


About the Templar thing: I doubt the first thing the Templar instructor does is kicking the classroom door open and show you pictures of all the imaginable horrible abominations out there.....

Why doubt? He should be doing exactly that. It makes perfect sense. Why teach them how to fight an enemy they know **** about?

[Reiella]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

In the military, however, you are being teached how best to recognize the enemy. Trust me, I know.

Furthermore, that Cullen didn't just receive his armor in the mailbox with a letter saying  'Cya at the Circle!'. Like Alistair he was trained to become a Templar at a very young age. So this, again, prompts the question: What the hell are they teaching those kids if not how to recognize an abomination?! Which is right about the sole purpose of being a templar -- and hunting mages, yes.

Oh, btw, this also promps another question: What about that full-plate heavy armor they're wearing while they are the hunters of mages? What good does that heavy stuff do against magic? They would be slower, and less likely to dodge a freakin' fireball. It's unpractical and although they look great... it doesn't really make sense.

Could you tell that Amalia was possessed by looking at her?  Could Matthias?  Until they literally turn flesh, I don't think there are many overt signs if the demon doesn't want to be noticed.  And I'm pretty certain that Uldred did not get past Greagoir looking like a giant ogre freak .

[Vaeliorin]

The Angry One wrote...
I guess they really wanted to force the issue of someone giving that evil witch her demon baby.

That's what Dog (aka Rabbit) is for.  He's tainted, Morrigan turns into a dog when you tell her that you're not going to do the whole ritual thing...

Or am I the only one who thought that's what was going on there?

Theronyll Itholien wrote...
Oh, btw, this also promps another question: What about that full-plate heavy armor they're wearing while they are the hunters of mages? What good does that heavy stuff do against magic? They would be slower, and less likely to dodge a freakin' fireball. It's unpractical and although they look great... it doesn't really make sense.

Because obviously none of the abominations ever attack in melee.  They all stand back and throw fireballs, just like the demons.

Oh, wait....

[Theronyll Itholien]

Reiella wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

In the military, however, you are being teached how best to recognize the enemy. Trust me, I know.

Furthermore, that Cullen didn't just receive his armor in the mailbox with a letter saying  'Cya at the Circle!'. Like Alistair he was trained to become a Templar at a very young age. So this, again, prompts the question: What the hell are they teaching those kids if not how to recognize an abomination?! Which is right about the sole purpose of being a templar -- and hunting mages, yes.

Oh, btw, this also promps another question: What about that full-plate heavy armor they're wearing while they are the hunters of mages? What good does that heavy stuff do against magic? They would be slower, and less likely to dodge a freakin' fireball. It's unpractical and although they look great... it doesn't really make sense.

Could you tell that Amalia was possessed by looking at her?  Could Matthias?  Until they literally turn flesh, I don't think there are many overt signs if the demon doesn't want to be noticed.  And I'm pretty certain that Uldred did not get past Greagoir looking like a giant ogre freak .

I know.

Cullen, though, mentioned he had no idea what signs to look for NOR what they looked liked in the all-nasty form. The fact that he'd know to attack it once he sees it is irrelavent to my point.

[The Angry One]

Uldred didn't become an abomination until he was already in the tower meeting with the other mages.

He tried to use blood magic and demonology to summon demons on his side, who promptly turned on him and possessed him.



On Templar armour - I believe it's warded against magical effects... and you don't get to call yourself a Knight Templar by running around in leather! It's tradition!