156 réponses à ce sujet

[Odd Hermit]

• Mages in particular can stack magic and willpower above all else, there's no good reason for them to branch out.
• Willpower eventually becomes unnecessary for mages due to lyrium pots +
  high magic scores make sure you need less mana to kill things anyway.
• Warriors/Rogues need a more balanced amount of stats, but to use weapons/armor must stack dex/strength fairly high.
• Stamina regeneration determined by...willpower? Why not constitution?
• Strength should reduce overall fatigue.
• Dex should also reduce stam costs OR increase regen of stam.
• Magic should not affect healing received, warriors should not need to take magic if magi don't need to take strength.

I'm loving the game/characters/story and the combat LOOKS good but it's stat system is very messed up.

My #1 suggestion for balancing mages would be making lyrium pots increase magic regeneration rate but not stack, so that you can't just spam spells and suck down potions. Making willpower affect magic regen in combat but give less mana per point would also help. This means the mage has to take a more balanced approach to casting and pay some attention to their mana pool as well as giving them a reason to keep taking willpower.
My #2 suggestion would be giving certain spells longer cooldowns(CONE OF COLD COUGH COUGH) as well as tweakingthe way a lot of spells scale with the magic stat.
#3 Would be making willpower affect the duration of magic effects. This would make mages decide how much damage they're willing to sacrifice for longer control, instead of having the best of both worlds.

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:32 .

[AWJ9999]

Odd Hermit wrote...

[*]Stamina regeneration determined by...willpower? Why not constitution?

Err, because then Willpower would be a completely deadweight stat for non-mages? As opposed to Magic which is only about 90% deadweight for them...

[Odd Hermit]

AWJ9999 wrote...

Odd Hermit wrote...

Stamina regeneration determined by...willpower? Why not constitution?

Err, because then Willpower would be a completely deadweight stat for non-mages? As opposed to Magic which is only about 90% deadweight for them...

Strength and dex are basically deadweight for mages, sounds fair to me.

Make willpower instead increase magic resistance perhaps, making it still useful for melee but not as necessary for them to use their main abilties with any frequency.

It also makes no sense for willpower to determine stamina since a strong minded person isn't necessarily full of physical energy.

[TuringPoint]

I like the idea about lyrium potions. TBH I don't like health and lyrium potions anyway, and I think there should be other ways the party members can help each other out to make up for that. I know why they have them in the game, but I hope they move away from this.

I also noticed that my rogue, after taking the duelist class line and putting in a grandmaster hale rune, is nearly invulnerable. Kinda silly. But I have to say I love the quirkiness of this combat engine, it's very refreshing.  For now.

I disagree about willpower, to an extent.  Maybe the name for it is wrong, but at least what it does is consistent, and I think it makes sense.  

Modifié par Alocormin, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:01 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

in other words....nothing is broken you just want to whine and moan because the game isn't the exact same as you would have made it.



Your assumptions about the way stats work are just plain wrong, but thank you for trying.



You say 'should' a lot. You 'should' play the game they made. You 'should' think about how insanely easy most of your suggestions would make the game. you 'should' realize that most of your suggestions make no logical sense.

[AWJ9999]

Yeah, letting all three classes just mindlessly pump one stat every time they level, rather than just one class, doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

[AWJ9999]

Modifié par AWJ9999, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:56 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Actually I think it works well for rogues and warriors. Every stat can be useful, good.



Mages on the other han... have no incentive to put points in anything but magic and a bit of willpower. an improvement would have been to put the spell requirements on cunning for example. Though that stil doesn't give any reason to push past the requirements.



So, hum, yeah...

[addiction21]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...


You say 'should' a lot. You 'should' play the game they made. You 'should' think about how insanely easy most of your suggestions would make the game. you 'should' realize that most of your suggestions make no logical sense.

You "should" be getting me waffles.

Am I doing it right?

[Odd Hermit]

AWJ9999 wrote...

Yeah, letting all three classes just mindlessly pump one stat every time they level, rather than just one class, doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

Then what would you propose to make some strength/dex/stam/cunning needed for mages?
Maybe make stamina more necessary to reduce interruption from damage, dex or cunning necessary for some complex 'spell weaving'?

I actually don't see why magic is even a stat since it should really only apply to mages anyway.

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:02 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

Odd Hermit wrote...

AWJ9999 wrote...

Yeah, letting all three classes just mindlessly pump one stat every time they level, rather than just one class, doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

Then what would you propose to make some strength and/or dex/stam needed for mages?
Maybe make stamina more necessary to reduce interruption from damage, dex necessary for some complex spell weaving?

You cold also consider different specs and playstyles.

A mage that sees a lot of cose-quaters combat due to a party with low CC or few tanks is well served by having points in dex and con.

You seem to have a hard-on for mages needing to use more stats without considering the fact that not every moron just cranks up spellpower and leaves it at that.

[TuringPoint]

I think it's a sight better than the D&D system.

Every stat is useful to any character in some way, even if it's small.  The Arcane Warrior class makes strength pointless for a mage, but dex and con are still useful, as is willpower.  I guess cunning isn't too useful - what would happen if cunning reduced the cost of talents and spells?

Modifié par Alocormin, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:07 .

[Odd Hermit]

Alocormin wrote...

I think it's a sight better than the D&D system.

I could see it potentially being better, but right now I don't think it is. Why do you think it is better though? Just out of curiosity.

And which D&D system? 3.5 or 4.0 or?

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:05 .

[addiction21]

Odd Hermit wrote...

AWJ9999 wrote...

Yeah, letting all three classes just mindlessly pump one stat every time they level, rather than just one class, doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

Then what would you propose to make some strength/dex/stam/cunning needed for mages?
Maybe make stamina more necessary to reduce interruption from damage, dex or cunning necessary for some complex 'spell weaving'?

I actually don't see why magic is even a stat since it should really only apply to mages anyway.

Go start the game. Go to the status page and mouse over magic. Then read the tooltip.  I'll wait go ahead I need to go get a drink anyway.

[AWJ9999]

Yeah, spellcasters in D&D 3e are ridiculously single-stat dependent. Dunno about 4e, never played it.

[NetBeansAndJava]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

in other words....nothing is broken you just want to whine and moan because the game isn't the exact same as you would have made it.

It may not be as broken as the OP makes it sound, but it does need improvement.  He's right that many stats easily become throw away stats for mages if speced a certain way.  However, this can also be said of melee to a lesser extent and therefore the system is not completely broken.

The most outlandish stat right now imo is magic.  It affects healing, which to me makes lore sense, but does not make for good gameplay.  No melee character is going to invest in magic, which thus encourages the use of arcane warrior tanks (a possibility if played right).  If magic did not affect healing and heals were made percentage based instead of flat numbers, then I believe this stat will be nicely balanced.

Your assumptions about the way stats work are just plain wrong, but thank you for trying.

You say 'should' a lot. You 'should' play the game they made. You 'should' think about how insanely easy most of your suggestions would make the game. you 'should' realize that most of your suggestions make no logical sense.

Not all of his suggestions would make the game too easy.  Having lyrium pots affect combat mana regen would actually make the game harder and would be a positive addition, I'd say.  Also will affecting combat mana regen is a good idea, though I'm not too keen on reducing the mana pool benefit.

[AWJ9999]

Odd Hermit wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

I think it's a sight better than the D&D system.

I could see it potentially being better, but right now I don't think it is. Why do you think it is better though? Just out of curiosity.

And which D&D system? 3.5 or 4.0 or?

In D&D 3e, each caster class has one "magic stat", either Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma, that controls every single aspect of their magic, from how many spells they can cast to how powerful their spells are to how hard it is for enemies to resist them.

Think of how degenerate DAO mages would be if Magic and Willpower were one stat.  That's D&D, pretty much.

[Trajan60]

I think the stats work fine.

[TuringPoint]

D&D doesn't give any use for mages to have high strength, unless they're dual classed mage/warriors. I prefer an attribute system that grows over time to static attributes, because static attributes are less fun. You also couldn't make a stupid wizard or an uncharismatic sorcerer in D&D, and I find the division of those two a little pointless anyway. That's a lore-based issue as well, but why should casters always be smart? or charismatic? Why should charisma influence the ability to turn undead?

The lich is like, OMG, TOO MUCH PRETTINESS AND CHARM. I'll die now! Kthnxbye. Right? ignoring that a lich is rather hard to turn.   I could go on, but I don't want to.

I think the Arcane Warrior class is a little unbalanced, but the magic stat is fine, judging from people's comments.

I think the game could definitely stand to diversify how a player allocates attribute points anyway.  It uses attribute requirements to limit how you can advance your character, quite frankly.  Maybe some spells should require willpower?  I think they should.  I think some warrior/rogue talents should require willpower, or constitution, as well.  It would make a lot more sense for willpower to affect skills such as taunt.   

In addition to more diverse requirements in the talent tree, the requirements for top-tier talents could be lowered, maybe it would require more points to increase attributes at higher levels.

Modifié par Alocormin, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:57 .

[Odd Hermit]

Ok, here's a kind of general breakdown on how I think stats should work to make mages need more stats rather than make melee less stat dependent -

Strength - Needed for warriors/tanks to reduce fatigue/stam costs and wear heavy armor/use large weapons. Also useful for rogues for melee damage.
Dexterity - Needed for rogues for stealth/traps/locks and needed for melee in general for accuracy and reduced stamina costs. Also useful for all classes to reduce chance of being hit/knocked down/etc.
Cunning - Needed for rogues for their skillset, needed for mages for reduced casting speeds and spell cooldowns. Useful for all classes for some mental resistances and for speech options.
Willpower - Needed for mages for mana regen and spell durations, other classes for mental resistances.
Magic - Needed for mages for damage/healing output. (The equivalent of str. for mages)
Constitution - Need for warriors/tanks and rogues for stamina regen, all classes for HP and resistances, and mages for reduced chance of cast interruption.

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:32 .

[Gacatar]

Since you mentioned potions, I recommend a simple cooldown change.

5/10/15/30 for easy/normal/hard/nightmare. This could make willpower more important for mages and stop them from stacking so much magic.

[LethalBlade]

addiction21 wrote...

Go start the game. Go to the status page and mouse over magic. Then read the tooltip.  I'll wait go ahead I need to go get a drink anyway.

Note the use of the word 'should' in his statement. As in "the magic stat should only apply to mages". By the game's own lore, the magic stat for other classes makes no sense. Mages are born with magical affinity. Others are not. Why in the world would a rogue or warrior have any magical affinity? That would make them partially a mage, and potentially able to cast spells. The whole idea of the magic stat increasing the potency of healing poltices makes no sense either. The power of a poltice should be determined by the person who makes it, not the person who uses it.

[DragoonKain3]

As far as I'm concerned, even willpower is deadweight on typical spellslinging mages. Even my base WIL wynne only rarely uses a lyrium pot with the help of PC mage spellbloom, her own mass rejuv, and vessel of spirit/song of valor. Of course, if you like to run multiple sustained abilities ala AW, then you might need WILL, but I won't comment much more because Shimmering Shield is not working as intended.



As for wartanks, I'm just pumping dex and 26 STR, and he's doing EXCELLENT in the tanking department. I don't even see the need to pump CON, since DEX both boosts his offense and defense. Just slap heroic defense on him for good measure, and he can laugh in the face of stuff like revenants all day long with only minimum healing, and keep their attention for as long as he is alive via threaten and especially taunt. Certainly much better than a damage mitigation focused tank, because since he gets hit so rarely, the impact of even lesser heals is multiplied.



As for DW dps, with their multiple ways to avoid aggro and with a proper wartank, all they have to do is just pump STR or DEX/CUN depending on your build. Their main form of dps, momentum, lasts very long even with base WIL that you'll get more out of pumping damage than pumping WIL. And even w/out momentum, they'd still outdamage mages single target.



So yeah, you can pretty much stack one stat if you know what you're doing, regardless of your class. Sure wars/rogues can't spam their talents like mages do, but considering wars/rogues can still maintain EXCELLENT dps w/out stamina, and the fact that stam regens faster and stam regen equips is easier to find, I don't think any sort of boost to stamina via potions/stats is needed at all. I used to think that stam pots would be cool, but the more I think about it, the more it made less sense when properly built single-target dps fighters can still far outdps mages w/out spending any stamina at all. Lyrium pots exist to keep mages still useful for drawn out fights, not to make them 'more useful' than wars/rogues in these fights.



That said, if lyrium pots give you the mana over a certain interval of time (over the cooldown of the lyrium pot, 5 seconds?), instead of all at once, it would be more tactical since you would have to watch your mana more carefully, lest you run the risk of not having mana when you need it.



As for some spells that needs tweaks, then I agree, Cone of Cold and Force Field needs a tiny fix. For CoC, its only really broken if multiple mages casting it, so diminishing returns if its used more than once over a 10sec time frame. As for FF, lower both cooldown and duration, so you can still maintain forcefield, but it would cost you a lot more in mana. And as mentioned before, Shimmering Shield needs to shut down when you have 0 mana, and all spells (especially AoEs) should require Line of Sight. Apart from that, Mages don't need any cahnges at all.

[hireuin]

where's your evidence that the stats are broken?



'because you say so' ?



on my second playthrough now, as a dual wield warrior - played mage last time around - and i believe it's the most balanced game i've ever seen in terms of the mechanics, being loot, experience, skills/talents, attributes, difficulty.



almost every fight is an intense 'almost die' struggle on hardcore, from level 1 to level 20. unless you use one of the 'cheats' such as the two offensive mage or forcefield tank build.



supply us with some valid evidence and people may take your accusation seriously.

[Odd Hermit]

hireuin wrote...

where's your evidence that the stats are broken?

'because you say so' ?

on my second playthrough now, as a dual wield warrior - played mage last time around - and i believe it's the most balanced game i've ever seen in terms of the mechanics, being loot, experience, skills/talents, attributes, difficulty.

almost every fight is an intense 'almost die' struggle on hardcore, from level 1 to level 20. unless you use one of the 'cheats' such as the two offensive mage or forcefield tank build.

supply us with some valid evidence and people may take your accusation seriously.

I thought I explained why. If you'd call having two offensive mages basically 'cheating', isn't that evidence stats or at least classes aren't balanced?
O_o

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 18 novembre 2009 - 01:06 .