156 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesX]

The case of 2 mages it isn't because the magic stat is broken. It is because some spells are just too easy to use (because the A.I. is dumb).

Not all things are flaws with the character attribute system. A lot of it can be attributed to A.I. of the enemies.

[Darpaek]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

You seem to have a hard-on for mages needing to use more stats without considering the fact that not every moron just cranks up spellpower and leaves it at that.

That's me!  Other than putting a few points in Cunning (for Persuasion) my mage goes 2 magic/1 will every level.

I nuke everything.  When it comes close, I freeze it.

[Althernai]

It does seem that mages need fewer stats than warriors and rogues, but that hardly equates to the system being broken. It just means that a well built warrior will distribute his or her attribute points more evenly than a well built mage. There is nothing wrong with that.

[Odd Hermit]

Althernai wrote...

It does seem that mages need fewer stats than warriors and rogues, but that hardly equates to the system being broken. It just means that a well built warrior will distribute his or her attribute points more evenly than a well built mage. There is nothing wrong with that.

The return they get from doing so is less than the return mages get from stacking one or two stats however.
I wonder, if a poll was made, how many players would vote mages as the most powerful class. I bet a very large %.

[Velz]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

in other words....nothing is broken you just want to whine and moan because the game isn't the exact same as you would have made it.

Your assumptions about the way stats work are just plain wrong, but thank you for trying.

You say 'should' a lot. You 'should' play the game they made. You 'should' think about how insanely easy most of your suggestions would make the game. you 'should' realize that most of your suggestions make no logical sense.

Ageed. The combat is balanced around the faults and stretngths of the overall big picture of the game that only the dev's realize when creating it. I'm sure they arent idiots and have reasons for the way thgins are, and I wish they would come out and explain publicly already the thought going into the stats and combat system instead of sitting back and letting people keep going on about them like theyre retarded.

[Odd Hermit]

[/quote]

Ageed. The combat is balanced around the faults and stretngths of the overall big picture of the game that only the dev's realize when creating it. I'm sure they arent idiots and have reasons for the way thgins are, and I wish they would come out and explain publicly already the thought going into the stats and combat system instead of sitting back and letting people keep going on about them like theyre retarded.

[/quote]
I smell...is that...sarcasm?
Really wish more of the game was explained though.

Doesn't help that tooltips are missing a lot and I can't find exact numbers for ANYTHING. "This raises your defense!" Okay, well it has an upkeep of 30, how much defense does if give? Because I'd like to know if it's worth spending a point on and keeping 30 mana aside for...especially considering the game doesn't allow you to rearrange spells/abilities like it really SHOULD.

[Lord Badmagic]

With any luck a mod will fix it, Bioware apparently had no intention of looking at balance before release or now its actually out.

Along with all the other stuff like stamina pots (as seen in DAJ), general gear variety besides armours only warriors or "Arcane Warrior's" can use who again as a mage outperform a "tank" style of character at tanking, any enchantment options besides yet again, swords and a couple of poxy daggers/axes totally ignoring armours, staffs, bows etc etc not to mention the massive selection of a whole 2 or 3, one of which is female only and NPC only at that mages robes.

Or the re-play value of a linier quest chain, its so non liner, you can do steps 3-6 in any order, you could do 4-3-6 or 3-6-4 or even 3-4-6 and its soooo different every single time...

How long did they say they were working on this again?

[Shadow_Viper]

I've come to the conculsion that people need to stop creating needless whining threads.



IFSW.

[Riddley313]

Well, accrording to the official response regarding these things, everything is "working as intended".



Whether or not the game is balanced seems to be a matter of perspective. You have the apologists, who treat everything Bioware says as if it were uttered by the almighty, and dubs anyone who even slightly disagrees with Bioware's version of "balance" as "whiners". And you have the other crowd, who seem to recognize some fundamental flaws with some basic classes and abilities.



Personally, I'm in the former. If that makes me a whiner, so be it. From my understanding, forums are for discussion. If a forum dedicated to a game is getting no constructive feedback, what does that tell you about the game?



I don't think anyone is really debating whether or not DOA is a great game - it certainly is, but it also has it's fair share of faults. To the people complaining about these so-called "whiners", I have this to say - if you have nothing to contribute, and you think the game is perfectly fine, why bother joining in on these types of discussions in the first place?

[fidspecar]

I like the idea of lyrium pot affects mana regen and not just restore your mana immediately. And how about global cooldown for mages? Right now I can just spam spells one after another immediately. With global cooldown you will have to wait between spells. Is that a good idea?

[Sunstar]

I just finished a play through as a 21 primal mage. Maybe I could have min maxed my spell list and had an easier time of it - but i was forever running out of mana. I didn't run with another mage in the party mostly. I had about a 10 - 12 fatigue with the dragon skin armour on and some armour buffs.



I ended up with about 50 magic and 50 will power and enough strength / dex to wear armour (before I became a arcane warrior) and use a bow / crossbow early on.



i went into the final part of the game hundreds of potions and had a small amount of trouble with running out of mana if i used low level elemental attacks. But had a lot of trouble with higher level attacks and healing. When i switched to arcane warrior mode i could throw one or two group healing spells before i had to use a potion. - I spent all my gold on giving it to the npc's camp and so only had lower level potions..



the potions made it easier i admit - but i guess that the point of potions.

I don't consider the stat system broken - most of my characters put most of their stat points into one or two stats. Alistair was all strength and con and a little dex. The female bard was all dex and a little strength for armour. Shale was evenly - strength - dex - con - same for the dog. The system to me -was all about using the stats for the character with a little bit of other stats to help them along. Stamina can be boosted with rejuvenation type spells through the spirit healer. Having stamina potions would have made the whole game a cake walk. Try fighting the dual with the queens father (sorry i'm not good with names - starts with L - Loghain?) after the lands meet with all four of your characters. I did. personally I think the shield warrior has the best survivability in the game. The mage has the best ability to take someone down with out them even getting an attack. But once an attack lands my mage was pretty much dead.

[Odd Hermit]

Sunstar wrote...

I just finished a play through as a 21 primal mage. Maybe I could have min maxed my spell list and had an easier time of it - but i was forever running out of mana. I didn't run with another mage in the party mostly. I had about a 10 - 12 fatigue with the dragon skin armour on and some armour buffs.

I ended up with about 50 magic and 50 will power and enough strength / dex to wear armour (before I became a arcane warrior) and use a bow / crossbow early on.

i went into the final part of the game hundreds of potions and had a small amount of trouble with running out of mana if i used low level elemental attacks. But had a lot of trouble with higher level attacks and healing. When i switched to arcane warrior mode i could throw one or two group healing spells before i had to use a potion. - I spent all my gold on giving it to the npc's camp and so only had lower level potions..

the potions made it easier i admit - but i guess that the point of potions.
I don't consider the stat system broken - most of my characters put most of their stat points into one or two stats. Alistair was all strength and con and a little dex. The female bard was all dex and a little strength for armour. Shale was evenly - strength - dex - con - same for the dog. The system to me -was all about using the stats for the character with a little bit of other stats to help them along. Stamina can be boosted with rejuvenation type spells through the spirit healer. Having stamina potions would have made the whole game a cake walk. Try fighting the dual with the queens father (sorry i'm not good with names - starts with L - Loghain?) after the lands meet with all four of your characters. I did. personally I think the shield warrior has the best survivability in the game. The mage has the best ability to take someone down with out them even getting an attack. But once an attack lands my mage was pretty much dead.

Yeah, potions could probably use a MUCH longer cooldown to make difficulty more reasonable.
I could play on nightmare, but I personally don't enjoy the kind of difficulty increase that simply makes enemies do a ton of damage, and it's my first playthrough so I'm still getting the feel of things. The combat system needs changes, simple as that. Stats are only part of the issue, but I feel a lot of imbalances could be fixed through changing the way stats work.

[Drunkencelt]

Rogue builds requiring str instead of dex/cunning because the stat is broke and itemization is horrible is a problem.

[slikster]

1. This isn't DnD or WOW.

2. This isn't multiplayer.

3. Mages are supposed to be teh powerful.

4. This is Dragon Age. Deal with it.

[Odd Hermit]

slikster wrote...

1. This isn't DnD or WOW.
2. This isn't multiplayer.
3. Mages are supposed to be teh powerful.
4. This is Dragon Age. Deal with it.

These aren't excuses for a bad combat system.

[Kahryl]

Another "the lore told me warriors and rogues should be pathetic compared to mages" post

[slikster]

But, you see, not everyone thinks it's bad. Also, opinions are not always facts. Here's my opinion: I love the combat system. It could do with some tweaking, here and there, but I don't think it should be gutted and totally redesigned. Lastly, there is a toolset for you to make it just how you want.

[Kahryl]

slikster wrote...

But, you see, not everyone thinks it's bad. Also, opinions are not always facts. Here's my opinion: I love the combat system. It could do with some tweaking, here and there, but I don't think it should be gutted and totally redesigned. Lastly, there is a toolset for you to make it just how you want.

I'm happy the game meets your standards.

But let me ask you, would you be disappointed if rogues and warriors were as userful as mages?  Would that harm the game experience for you?  Or would it improve it?

Not everyone thinks having mages vastly more powerful is BAD but I have yet to see anyone seriously argue that it's BETTER.

That's a sign of a bad game feature.

Modifié par Kahryl, 18 novembre 2009 - 03:33 .

[Odd Hermit]

slikster wrote...

But, you see, not everyone thinks it's bad. Also, opinions are not always facts. Here's my opinion: I love the combat system. It could do with some tweaking, here and there, but I don't think it should be gutted and totally redesigned. Lastly, there is a toolset for you to make it just how you want.

"but that's just like, your opinion, man" is not a real argument. =|

Also, not my job to make the game, fixing this game's combat is the job for people who get payed. I'm sure it's worth their time to work on it anyway, I'd be ready to buy up expansion packs, sequels, maybe even DLC if I saw this game's combat system improved. Crossing my fingers they don't leave the game in it's current state, not because it's bad, it's a great game I'd say, but because it could be a lot better with some TLC.

Not saying it needs a COMPLETE redesign either, but certain parts definitely need a lot of work.

[chizow]

Agreed, attribute system and dependency system is poorly conceived and/or broken.  From the link in my sig, no need to re-write everything so just cut and pasting it.  Should be obvious the current system allows for much more "stat dumping" for Mage classes compared to Warrior/Rogue. 

1. Stamina vs. Mana.  I know there's tons of threads here and elsewhere about this topic, so I'm going to try and just cover some potential fixes rather than argue whether its OK or working as intended. 

• a. STR or CON determines Stamina.  Right now Willpower as a modifier for both Stamina and Mana.  This should be an obvious disparity, as a Mage only need concern themselves with 2 major modifiers: Willpower and Magic.  A well-balanced physical damage character needs to be concerned with STR/DEX and possibly CON, along with WIL.  A rogue would also need some points in CUN.  There's clearly a disparity here in that physical characters will be spread thinner by default in order to be effective.
  
• b. STR reduces fatigue.  Again, makes perfect sense for lore purists or pseudo-realists.  The fact physical characters are basically forced to use heavier armor that further compounds their stamina issues without any benefit from an attribute that would feasibly reduce that penalty just leads to further imbalance.
  
• c. Reduce Stamina cost for sustained abilities.  Again, can tie this into STR reducing fatigue.  The fact remains a physical dmg build character relies much more heavily on their sustained abilities in order to be effective.  Not only are these sustained abilities deeply integrated into the various skill-trees, they're expensive in terms of skill points invested, so having them constantly on is a necessity to make full use of their various synergies.  The use of multiple sustained abilities is once again compounded by the fact physical characters sacrifice more to build up Stamina via Willpower and also suffer greater penalties due to fatigue.
  
• d. Introduce a craftable Stamina potion or allow Mana pots to restore Stamina.  It really feels like there was intent for a Stamina regain potion in early builds but was scrapped at some point in development.  Fact remains, there is no way to regain Stamina as effectively as chugging a Mana pot.  Deep Mushrooms are in the game as a Stamina regain item but there aren't any advanced formulae using it to regain Stamina.  This clearly results in Mage builds being more effective than physical build characters by default, simply because Mage builds have a bigger tank (max WIL) that doesn't burn fuel as quickly (fatigue) that can be quickly refilled (Mana pots).

 

Modifié par chizow, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[DragoonKain3]

DW rogues/warriors have a normal DPS higher than a mage can fulfill with his spells. And rogues with backstab has THREE TIMES the single target dps of mages.



Heroic Defense on my dexbased tank is pretty much a Force field. And with taunt/threaten, can permanently keep aggro off the squishies to enable their DPS/AoE/CC/Support etc.



Yeah, every class is powerful in its own right. Sure some skills are broken *cough*shimmering shield not turning off at 0 mana*cough*, but for a party based game, they fulfill their roles excellently.

[slikster]

I don't think rougues and warriors are less useful than a mage though. They all have their roles to play. Usefulness is a subjective term and means different things to different people. Your stance is obvious in that you think it would be more "userful" for you, but I think the game expience is already fine. I am using dexterity hotfix 3 and am loving every heated battle with my balanced party, and I don't try to game the system. So why would I want drastic changes to something I think works darn well and am having so much fun with?

[F-C]

http://social.biowar.../9/index/222939

that thread about rogues being the highest damage in the game makes this whole thread a big joke.

there is a player right there proving the mage whiners wrong.

bioware is telling you its working as intended.


get a grip, really.

Riddley313 wrote...
From my understanding, forums are for discussion. If a forum dedicated to a game is getting no constructive feedback, what does that tell you about the game?

as far as this goes, i would say in general forums are covered in whines and complaints no matter what games forum you go to.

ive pretty much come to the conclusion that most game forums are there only for the whiners to have a place to cry.

[Odd Hermit]

F-C wrote...

http://social.biowar.../9/index/222939

that thread about rogues being the highest damage in the game makes this whole thread a big joke.

there is a player right there proving the mage whiners wrong.

bioware is telling you its working as intended.


get a grip, really.

Riddley313 wrote...
From my understanding, forums are for discussion. If a forum dedicated to a game is getting no constructive feedback, what does that tell you about the game?

as far as this goes, i would say in general forums are covered in whines and complaints no matter what games forum you go to.

ive pretty much come to the conclusion that most game forums are there only for the whiners to have a place to cry.

This is single target. And mages have way more AoE than a rogue, and can control enemies more effectively as well as having a massive toolbox from their spell list including healing. Just because a certain rogue build does more single target damage due to a few cheesy talent synergies doesn't mean mages are balanced.

[Kolaris8472]

F-C wrote...

http://social.biowar.../9/index/222939

that thread about rogues being the highest damage in the game makes this whole thread a big joke.

there is a player right there proving the mage whiners wrong.

bioware is telling you its working as intended.


get a grip, really.

This isn't the complaint. The 'problem' is that Mages get comprable single target dps, then they get tons of other things that Rogue doesn't - CC, AoE dps, supports, debuffs, tanking with Arcane Warrior. That Rogue does one thing well, while Mages are a sort of 'Jack and Master of All Trades', or close enough to warrant all these threads.