156 réponses à ce sujet

[Skemte]

.. My main problem with the mage is the fact they are not forced into weapon specializations like the warrior and rogue are.. As well as forced to committ to the combat training skill if they don't have to, when its absolutely neccesayr for rogue/warrior to even get access to weapon skills.. This gives a far better experience with the mage just because you have far more meaningful choices to make.. I tcould be argued that runes play a huge role in weapons, but to be quite honest they don't some how give the player more choices to match the mage... I really could care less about the mage as so much as why were the warrior and rogue put in such pigeon holes of having to pick between one tree or the other, while the mage got free reign?

[RENEGADEXVIII]

Odd Hermit wrote...

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

The only stat based alteration that I would agree with would be unmarrying the usefulness of the Magic stat to melee classes,making it just as useless for melee classes as the Strength stat is to Magi...

The concept that the Mage class is overpowered because it's possible to solely pump the Magic stat while ignoring all others is flawed.It is possible to create a high risk spell-caster build in this fashion but the underlining weakness would be the inability to avoid attacks (due to low dex) and the inability to take even low levels of damage (due to low cons) so it's more of a trade off than anything else.A melee class can also concentrate on pumping damage dealing stats (namely strength) while ignoring dex and cons for a high risk build as well.

It's not as high risk for a mage because they're not in melee range, and have several ways to prevent normal mobs from reaching them. Also, killing things faster often results in less damage taken anyway.

Offensive Mages are supposed to be DPS killing machines at range,their weakness lies in their very poor survivability skills.If melee based enemies get through your party's defenses you're dead,if you're facing ranged opponents (bowmen or magi) and there is the smallest weakness in your strategy you're dead,if you're facing enemies with immunities to your DPS spells (like fire) or your 'get me out of danger' Entropy/Spirit spells you're dead.

A back-stabbing rogue build is almost just as vicious with DPS as an offensive Mage (minus the AoE) but even more dangerous with the addition of excellent survivability skills,which is why I had a much easier time with my DW dagger-Rogue than I did with my go for broke offensive Mage.My Rogue did high DPS and was rarely hit due to high dex.Once you take into account the difference in survivability vs other classes the Mage class seems pretty balanced.

The system isn't perfect but every class plays an essential role in a well balanced party.Once you're rolling solo after being imprisoned in the Fade by the sloth demon you'll see just how 'overpowered' the offensive Mage really is,especially if you've stacked everything in Magic while ignoring dex and cons.     

[Schyzm]

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

Odd Hermit wrote...

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

The only stat based alteration that I would agree with would be unmarrying the usefulness of the Magic stat to melee classes,making it just as useless for melee classes as the Strength stat is to Magi...

The concept that the Mage class is overpowered because it's possible to solely pump the Magic stat while ignoring all others is flawed.It is possible to create a high risk spell-caster build in this fashion but the underlining weakness would be the inability to avoid attacks (due to low dex) and the inability to take even low levels of damage (due to low cons) so it's more of a trade off than anything else.A melee class can also concentrate on pumping damage dealing stats (namely strength) while ignoring dex and cons for a high risk build as well.

It's not as high risk for a mage because they're not in melee range, and have several ways to prevent normal mobs from reaching them. Also, killing things faster often results in less damage taken anyway.

Offensive Mages are supposed to be DPS killing machines at range,their weakness lies in their very poor survivability skills.If melee based enemies get through your party's defenses you're dead,if you're facing ranged opponents (bowmen or magi) and there is the smallest weakness in your strategy you're dead,if you're facing enemies with immunities to your DPS spells (like fire) or your 'get me out of danger' Entropy/Spirit spells you're dead.

A back-stabbing rogue build is almost just as vicious with DPS as an offensive Mage (minus the AoE) but even more dangerous with the addition of excellent survivability skills,which is why I had a much easier time with my DW dagger-Rogue than I did with my go for broke offensive Mage.My Rogue did high DPS and was rarely hit due to high dex.Once you take into account the difference in survivability vs other classes the Mage class seems pretty balanced.

The system isn't perfect but every class plays an essential role in a well balanced party.Once you're rolling solo after being imprisoned in the Fade by the sloth demon you'll see just how 'overpowered' the offensive Mage really is,especially if you've stacked everything in Magic while ignoring dex and cons.     

mages have excellent survivability skills.  melee attempts to bash my mages all the time on nightmare.  

[Mordaedil]

Hmm...

Let's see... Magic, willpower, etcetera...

Yeah, I can't disagree that I'd do it differently myself, but I disagree with the sentiment that it should done in the way the OP suggests.

If I were doing it, I'd have 4 stats, one for melee damage, one for melee accuracy, one for magic/stamina and one for resisting attacks, and I'd only give 2 stat points per level.

Why do I mention this? It's not really produtive for the developers to know or about game balance or even how to fix the game.

Well, thing is, it's just the way I'd do it. Which is what most of this thread is about. "If I were a game designer, this is how I would balance it".

But, none of you are.

Have a good day.

Modifié par Mordaedil, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:10 .

[Rikaze]

Mage's are uber, it's true, but yes, there's a serious potential for them to have crap for survivability.

By that same token, though, almost any class in the game can be turned to some extent of uber. Two-Handed Warriors, for instance. My first playthrough; Hard, Human Noble, Two-Handed Warrior.

He OWNED, literally just mopped people up in 3-5 hits, not counting Elite/Boss mobs/monsters. By the end of the game, was rolling nearly 60 Strength and 40 Con, with something like 25 Dex and Willpower.

He could NOT be knocked down or stunned, even without Indomitable on, provided he was making a Physical Resistance check. Yet, at the same time, his epic weakness was anything Magic related. He got hit with Paralysis or Weakness or anything like that, he was rendered pretty useless until it wore off, which took FOREVER due to the major lack of Mental Resist.



It's not just Mages that are OP, there's the possibility for nearly ANY class/build to be OP, given the right stat/skill combos, but they almost always have one major weakness, that when exploited effectively, can easily get you killed.

[Kelston]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...
You cold also consider different specs and playstyles.

A mage that sees a lot of cose-quaters combat due to a party with low CC or few tanks is well served by having points in dex and con.

You seem to have a hard-on for mages needing to use more stats without considering the fact that not every moron just cranks up spellpower and leaves it at that.

So what you're saying is: For players who play this game like idiots and can't figure out how to properly use a mage and a tank, the game is fine?

Maybe it is you that needs to figure out how to play the game because you need to pump dex into your mage. Moron.

[RENEGADEXVIII]

Schyzm wrote...

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

Odd Hermit wrote...

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

The only stat based alteration that I would agree with would be unmarrying the usefulness of the Magic stat to melee classes,making it just as useless for melee classes as the Strength stat is to Magi...

The concept that the Mage class is overpowered because it's possible to solely pump the Magic stat while ignoring all others is flawed.It is possible to create a high risk spell-caster build in this fashion but the underlining weakness would be the inability to avoid attacks (due to low dex) and the inability to take even low levels of damage (due to low cons) so it's more of a trade off than anything else.A melee class can also concentrate on pumping damage dealing stats (namely strength) while ignoring dex and cons for a high risk build as well.

It's not as high risk for a mage because they're not in melee range, and have several ways to prevent normal mobs from reaching them. Also, killing things faster often results in less damage taken anyway.

Offensive Mages are supposed to be DPS killing machines at range,their weakness lies in their very poor survivability skills.If melee based enemies get through your party's defenses you're dead,if you're facing ranged opponents (bowmen or magi) and there is the smallest weakness in your strategy you're dead,if you're facing enemies with immunities to your DPS spells (like fire) or your 'get me out of danger' Entropy/Spirit spells you're dead.

A back-stabbing rogue build is almost just as vicious with DPS as an offensive Mage (minus the AoE) but even more dangerous with the addition of excellent survivability skills,which is why I had a much easier time with my DW dagger-Rogue than I did with my go for broke offensive Mage.My Rogue did high DPS and was rarely hit due to high dex.Once you take into account the difference in survivability vs other classes the Mage class seems pretty balanced.

The system isn't perfect but every class plays an essential role in a well balanced party.Once you're rolling solo after being imprisoned in the Fade by the sloth demon you'll see just how 'overpowered' the offensive Mage really is,especially if you've stacked everything in Magic while ignoring dex and cons.     

mages have excellent survivability skills.  melee attempts to bash my mages all the time on nightmare.  

Right...and my soda is lukewarm regardless of the fact that it's been sitting in the freezer for over 2 hours.

If you have the type of Mage build that the OP is referring to (all points stacked into magic while ignoring everything else.Which means your Mage can't avoid being hit due to low dex nor can s/he take any damage due to low cons) survivability skills are indeed very poor.     

[Mordaedil]

Kelston wrote...

So what you're saying is: For players who play this game like idiots and can't figure out how to properly use a mage and a tank, the game is fine?

Maybe it is you that needs to figure out how to play the game because you need to pump dex into your mage. Moron.

And you have not read this sites terms of service. Maybe you should cool off outside of the boards instead, with maybe some ping-pong, or Tetris? In all honesty, don't call other users morons. That's just flaming for no reason, just because you disagree with their point. Instead, make your own argument more solid.

Kelston wrote...

For players who play this game like idiots and can't figure out how to properly use a mage and a tank, the game is fine?

Maybe it is you that needs to figure out how to play the game because you need to pump dex into your mage.

Invalid argument. Just because the game favors a different playstyle doesn't equate them to being unable to figure out how to cheese the game nor does it indicate that their mental faculties are inferior to the average or even below a higher average.

It just means they want to have fun. Remember that, fun? The kind we used to have on message boards before everything became a giant pissing contest?

[Schyzm]

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

Right...and my soda is lukewarm regardless of the fact that it's been sitting in the freezer for over 2 hours.

If you have the type of Mage build that the OP is referring to (all points stacked into magic while ignoring everything else.Which means your Mage can't avoid being hit due to low dex nor can s/he take any damage due to low cons) survivability skills are indeed very poor.     

I don't know why you think survivability is poor.  you have enormous amounts of cc and heals.  hell even if I get mobbed it takes little more than a glyph of repulsion to just laugh in their faces most times.  and even if you didn't want to get that spell there's 10 or 15 other spells that are all as effective at keeping you alive as a little more hitpoints.  really big bad monsters just wailing away at you hurt a lot, but the normal swarms that make it by the hilariously bad tanks aint nothing to worry about.

[Odd Hermit]

Mordaedil wrote...

Hmm...

Let's see... Magic, willpower, etcetera...

Yeah, I can't disagree that I'd do it differently myself, but I disagree with the sentiment that it should done in the way the OP suggests.

If I were doing it, I'd have 4 stats, one for melee damage, one for melee accuracy, one for magic/stamina and one for resisting attacks, and I'd only give 2 stat points per level.

Why do I mention this? It's not really produtive for the developers to know or about game balance or even how to fix the game.

Well, thing is, it's just the way I'd do it. Which is what most of this thread is about. "If I were a game designer, this is how I would balance it".

But, none of you are.

Have a good day.

That was an awful lot of words to say "you're not a game developer so you're probably wrong".

Game developers aren't infallible and often miss things that players pick up on. They probably see the game from a fairly different perspective than the players, and getting some perspective from players can be helpful to developers and developers have used player ideas in the past.

[Schyzm]

Mordaedil wrote...

Kelston wrote...

So what you're saying is: For players who play this game like idiots and can't figure out how to properly use a mage and a tank, the game is fine?

Maybe it is you that needs to figure out how to play the game because you need to pump dex into your mage. Moron.

And you have not read this sites terms of service. Maybe you should cool off outside of the boards instead, with maybe some ping-pong, or Tetris? In all honesty, don't call other users morons. That's just flaming for no reason, just because you disagree with their point. Instead, make your own argument more solid.

Kelston wrote...

For players who play this game like idiots and can't figure out how to properly use a mage and a tank, the game is fine?

Maybe it is you that needs to figure out how to play the game because you need to pump dex into your mage.

Invalid argument. Just because the game favors a different playstyle doesn't equate them to being unable to figure out how to cheese the game nor does it indicate that their mental faculties are inferior to the average or even below a higher average.

It just means they want to have fun. Remember that, fun? The kind we used to have on message boards before everything became a giant pissing contest?

generally in games styles refer to things that are by in large at least attempting to be of equal effectiveness.  intentionally doing dumb things just because...well just because kind of invalidates a lot of arguments.  certainly he can do anything he wants and has fun, but its difficult when intentionally doing dumb things to have valid contributions to arguments like this.

[Rikaze]

....Let the Flame Wars....
....BEGIN!
Seriously though, what Mordaedil said is correct, and in my experience, there are at least a dozen stat/skill/talent combinations for every class that work from just barely to extremely well, with Just Barely being to the tune of being able to beat the game on Hard or Nightmare... Just Barely.

Edited for Typo's.

Modifié par Rikaze, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:43 .

[Kelston]

Mordaedil wrote...

And you have not read this sites terms of service. Maybe you should cool off outside of the boards instead, with maybe some ping-pong, or Tetris? In all honesty, don't call other users morons. That's just flaming for no reason, just because you disagree with their point. Instead, make your own argument more solid.

Oh, I get it. If you are a fanboy and will blindly defend BioWare you can flame and insult people all you want. But heaven forbid you disagree with something BioWare did, then the rules will suddenly apply to you!

[Mordaedil]

Odd Hermit wrote...

That was an awful lot of words to say "you're not a game developer so you're probably wrong".

Game developers aren't infallible and often miss things that players pick up on. They probably see the game from a fairly different perspective than the players, and getting some perspective from players can be helpful to developers and developers have used player ideas in the past.

Actually, I was going for "you're not a game developer, so odds are you have your own idea of what makes a good game, but neighbour has a different one and if you were going to build a treehouse as a game, odds are you'd make some very shrewd compromises to raise that treehouse to where it stands effectively on it's own and you both get your input into how the treehouse should stand".

Players aren't really all that insightful either, and fail to take into notion that the ideas to the stat system was most likely conceived as a joint effort between several developers to make a working stats system, built on compromise and ideas that they tossed out there. A lot were probably even removed, but the finished product has elements that work well and elements that work... Less well.

I don't really think all the conclusions arrived at in this thread are wrong, but I think they overthink their importance in relation to fixing it or how many people would agree with their fixes.

All in all, there's more than one way to make a good game.

Modifié par Mordaedil, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:57 .

[Mordaedil]

Kelston wrote...

Oh, I get it. If you are a fanboy and will blindly defend BioWare you can flame and insult people all you want. But heaven forbid you disagree with something BioWare did, then the rules will suddenly apply to you!

Actually, I've received several warnings on my posting style in the past because I tend to get a little heated in arguments, but I also tend to apologize for my behavior and try to improve afterwards. It's why I was very familiar with the Terms of Service on the old forums, but these new forums have different rules, so it's a bit harder to get aquinted to.

It's not a matter whether I agree or disagree with Bioware, but it's important to stay friendly, otherwise civility is lost and all that remains is rudeness.

All I ask is that you improve your mannerisms. And learn to play by the rules, so no argument of value is lost to a sea of underrated immaturity.

[Odd Hermit]

Mordaedil wrote...

Actually, I was going for "you're not a game developer, so odds are you have your own idea of what makes a good game, but neighbour has a different one and if you were going to build a treehouse as a game, odds are you'd make some very shrewd compromises to raise that treehouse to where it stands effectively on it's own and you both get your input into how the treehouse should stand".

Players aren't really all that insightful either, and fail to take into notion that the ideas to the stat system was most likely conceived as a joint effort between several developers to make a working stats system, built on compromise and ideas that they tossed out there. A lot were probably even removed, but the finished product has elements that work well and elements that work... Less well.

I don't really think all the conclusions arrived at in this thread are wrong, but I think they overthink their importance in relation to fixing it or how many people would agree with their fixes.

All in all, there's more than one way to make a good game.

I don't understand the point of this post.

It's a forum, people have ideas and suggestions. Argue with the ideas and suggestions, it's a waste of time to simply point out that they're likely not to be listened to by the devs. Obviously we're not all going to agree on what's best and obviously the developers aren't taking notes word for word from anyone's individual posts, but the devs can get a general idea of what issues players are having from forum banter.

[BringwinD]

i finished 2 playthroughs with mage and dual wield dps warrior. If there's any class to complain about it is the dual wield warrior that is broken.



Mage = high aoe damage, unfortunately most of it is friendly fire. no matter how high u stack your magic, certain hexes do nothing against orange boss mobs. Cone of Cold is broken, but thats about it.



dualwield warrior - momentum + bloodthirst with healing poultices, just need 1 support mage to do dispel magic+ forcefield to negate crushing prison. 2 weapons with 6 slots all paralyzed runes, bosses just get paralyzed.



No matter how high a mage pumps his/her magic to, there's no way a mage can get the heavy hitter achievement. and most of the important fights are boss fights, other massive mob fights can be LOSed or single pulled.



my Dw warrior with 20will20con36dex52str out dps, out control, out survive, my 80magic mage.

[Mordaedil]

Sure, legitimate issues. I'm just not sure where ability scores stands on the concept of "legitimate issues" since it's likely something very heavily ingrained into the game engine.



Kinda the same way in NWN how they never removed parry, I doubt they will change (to a great degree) the way ability scores affect gameplay.

[JessicaGlenn]

I like the game as it is. More challenging then other Bioware games. Even BG2 got easier once you got a proper party setup. This game, its a tough fight from start to finish, especially at end game with a lot of fighting going on.



As for mages, I do put points into CON, since the mage I play does so much DPS that every enemy seeks to target her. Dex is useful for increased defence, strength not so much since I'm an Arcane. So, yeah its not so mindless after all. Cunning is also useful if you go for a persuasive mage like I am.

[DragoonKain3]

Face it, I also run a max magic mage. It only takes one Overpower from a certain boss in the Paragon quest line at nightmare to effectively oneshot her (the tank I was forced to have did not have taunt GRRR). Max magic mages can't take a hit for beans, unless you're abusing Shimmering Shield exploits. Granted I can safely run in middle of melee trash mobs since they can't focus fire (to pull off a well aimed cone spell or whatnot), but archer trash mobs and mage trash mobs can quickly burst her down from full to zero due to focus fire. There's this one corridor where it was just 8 trash archers or so, and they would've killed Wynne if she hadn't had Lifeward on (and all I did was pump MAG on her too).



That said, she has the tools to preventing this in the first place (and me not being stupid and running my mage in front of my tank). She has tons of CC, but man, if your CCs are on cooldown and those that aren't can't affect the enemy (some enemies are immune to mind blast/stun for example), then you better start running if the boss is after you and hope Cone of Cold is soon up.



Doesn't change the fact that she is made out of paper once they get to her. Of course, that's all assuming IF they get to her, because between her CCs and more importantly taunt (best CC talent EVER), that's very rare indeed.

[Jinshifu]

1) Have party stand way back
2) Blow a nice Blizzard (to keep em in place) + Tempest + Inferno
3) Call in the deadweights to clean up the near-death elites.

Modifié par Jinshifu, 18 novembre 2009 - 08:37 .

[Odd Hermit]

Mordaedil wrote...

Sure, legitimate issues. I'm just not sure where ability scores stands on the concept of "legitimate issues" since it's likely something very heavily ingrained into the game engine.

Kinda the same way in NWN how they never removed parry, I doubt they will change (to a great degree) the way ability scores affect gameplay.

Just some minor tweaks could improve gameplay a lot. Maybe it's just not my style, but a great number of posts I see on these forums are combat related and not atmosphere/story/character/etc. related.

Magic affecting healing received should be changed if nothing else. Mages don't need strength, warriors/rogues don't need magic - fair deal. Make willpower give mental resistances instead of magic too.

[code2501]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

This isn't the complaint. The 'problem' is that Mages get comprable single target dps, then they get tons of other things that Rogue doesn't - CC, AoE dps, supports, debuffs, tanking with Arcane Warrior. That Rogue does one thing well, while Mages are a sort of 'Jack and Master of All Trades', or close enough to warrant all these threads.

I wasnt going to bother posting in another "balance whaa whaa" thread, but if you dont know how to use a rogue effectively then stop comparing it to a mage. Mages have many spells to choose from, but rogues arent exactly lacking skills either.

CC?
Dirty Fighting, Feign Death and Stealth are core Rogue skills, droping agro is as much CC as locking down a target.
Riposte stuns, Cripple can snare, Pinning Shot either roots or snares and Scatter Shot stuns AOE .
Then you have several specialisation skills like Captivating Song, Distraction and Upset Balance.

AoE dps?
Dual weapon Sweep & Whirlwind are both effective, but no, you don't to chose one of 20 flavors of the same thing. you do however have the advantage that both these only hit enemies, where as most mage AoE DPS will nuke your allies just as effectively.

Support?
Mages have more targeted and group buffs, but rogues have plenty of self buffs, and bards aren't useless for a group. In addition to this, the game is heavily biased toward melees with respect to their ability to benefit from group buffs, so what the mage provides the melee takes great advantage of.
 
Debuffs?
Your kidding right? Rogues are masters at debuffing, just the core skills alone have 6 debuffs available, then there are the specialisations with skills like the awsome Mark of Death.

Tanking?
Rogues can and do hold their own perfectly well. With Evasion, a high natural defense score from all your Dex, and the huge number of passive and active defense buffs a well speced rogue can be near imposible to hit. Combine that with high damage output and optional medium armor and I think you will find the average rogue could easily tank several mobs better than a mage.

Sure mages are a strong class, and they certainly make a good tactician on the field, but if you spend just as much time comanding a melee I think you will find there not weak by any means.

[code2501]

BringwinD wrote...
No matter how high a mage pumps his/her magic to, there's no way a mage can get the heavy hitter achievement. and most of the important fights are boss fights, other massive mob fights can be LOSed or single pulled. 

Most of your post I agree with, but I did achieved HH with my mage, there is a lovely spell combo using entropy spells that hits like a tonn of bricks if you can apply it to a single target and have +spirit damage% and spellpower stacked.

[iampotato]

As soon as someone has a negative opinion about the game, the fan boys strike!



Pathetic...



I love the game aswell, but yeah, it's not perfect. Alot could be improved.