156 réponses à ce sujet

[Odd Hermit]

code2501 wrote...

BringwinD wrote...
No matter how high a mage pumps his/her magic to, there's no way a mage can get the heavy hitter achievement. and most of the important fights are boss fights, other massive mob fights can be LOSed or single pulled. 

Most of your post I agree with, but I did achieved HH with my mage, there is a lovely spell combo using entropy spells that hits like a tonn of bricks if you can apply it to a single target and have +spirit damage% and spellpower stacked.

Share!
Is it just horror on a sleeping target?

[Mordaedil]

iampotato wrote...

As soon as someone has a negative opinion about the game, the fan boys strike!

Pathetic...

I love the game aswell, but yeah, it's not perfect. Alot could be improved.

No. People are arguing for doing it differently.

Differently doesn't mean improving a system, it means changing it completely.

[Odd Hermit]

Mordaedil wrote...

iampotato wrote...

As soon as someone has a negative opinion about the game, the fan boys strike!

Pathetic...

I love the game aswell, but yeah, it's not perfect. Alot could be improved.

No. People are arguing for doing it differently.

Differently doesn't mean improving a system, it means changing it completely.

Differently doesn't actually mean 'changing it completely'. There are varying degrees of differently.
Regardless, he is correct in saying a lot could be improved. I can't imagine there are a lot of people who honestly think the combat system in this game doesn't need some amount of work.

[Spaceweed10]

They're not 'horribly broken', but they aren't perfect.

However, in a SP RPG, it is hardly a major factor.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I agree about the attribute system. It makes no sense. I've been looking at it over nd over again I can't make sense of it.



Any sane person will tell you that a warrior, regardless fo weapon, needs to be balanced.

just take a look at hte character profiles - practicly all follow the same pattern - main stat at 50, the rest mere pittens. Worst. Min-maxing. I've. Ever. Seen. EVER!



I can't even figure out what teh stats are representing..how do they compare. the growth function can't be linear (that would be horribly brokwen), so it must follow some messed-up function. So much for being simple and intuitive.



You're supposed to start as a allready trained and healthy individual. So having a stats at 14-15 would mean you are allready average or above. So what the hell is a score of 50 then??? Is my character Supermans illigitimate child? How can physical attributes change so drasticly so rapidly??? Why even go with such a ...such a...s*** system? This is probably the only big failing of the game.

[Ultrazennn]

The real problem in general to me is the number of mobs you face from about half way through the game on.  That's what makes mages powerful.  On smaller fights, my melee classes can kill stuff at least 3 to 1 compared to  a full out damage mage, because of the cooldowns.  My rogue doing nothing but auto attacking can far outdamage any mage you can build.

When you start getting into fights with 20+ enemies at a time is where the cheese begins.  Any class that is doing single target anything is gimped in the 2nd half of the game.

Melee classes could use more meaningful AOE abilities, and in general their abilities are not even worth bothering to use.  ANY of the rogue skills you bother to trigger will actually end up costing you DPS because of the windups on the animations.  Flurry, dual weapon sweep, etc etc, all complete wastes of time.  That is something that needs to be looked at.

Given how precious stamina is, and how fast you run out of it, triggering one of those abilities should be a LOT more devastating than they currently are, and that's my main beef with the game balance in general.

That and archers absolutey suck.  That entire spec tree needs to be looked at.  Outside of arrow of slaying, its just a horrible spec.  If you use a rogue to make an archer, you will do about 3 times the DPS by just equipping 2 crappy weapons and standing behind a mob auto attacking vs using your fully speced bow.

[Spura]

Odd Hermit wrote...

Strength and dex are basically deadweight for mages,

Oh right...because mages don't need Defense stat. </sarcasm>

[Spura]

Odd Hermit wrote...

F-C wrote...

http://social.biowar.../9/index/222939

that thread about rogues being the highest damage in the game makes this whole thread a big joke.

there is a player right there proving the mage whiners wrong.

bioware is telling you its working as intended.


get a grip, really.

Riddley313 wrote...
From my understanding, forums are for discussion. If a forum dedicated to a game is getting no constructive feedback, what does that tell you about the game?

as far as this goes, i would say in general forums are covered in whines and complaints no matter what games forum you go to.

ive pretty much come to the conclusion that most game forums are there only for the whiners to have a place to cry.

This is single target. And mages have way more AoE than a rogue, and can control enemies more effectively as well as having a massive toolbox from their spell list including healing. Just because a certain rogue build does more single target damage due to a few cheesy talent synergies doesn't mean mages are balanced.

Yeah how dare they have something to be good at like CC and AoE. Just because a certain mage build does have a few cheesy spell synergies doesn't mean rogues are balanced.

[surrealitycheck]

HAHAHAHAHA

A MAGE CAN'T GET HEAVY HITTER?

Modifié par surrealitycheck, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:08 .

[RENEGADEXVIII]

Schyzm wrote...

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

Right...and my soda is lukewarm regardless of the fact that it's been sitting in the freezer for over 2 hours.

If you have the type of Mage build that the OP is referring to (all points stacked into magic while ignoring everything else.Which means your Mage can't avoid being hit due to low dex nor can s/he take any damage due to low cons) survivability skills are indeed very poor.     

I don't know why you think survivability is poor.  you have enormous amounts of cc and heals.  hell even if I get mobbed it takes little more than a glyph of repulsion to just laugh in their faces most times.  and even if you didn't want to get that spell there's 10 or 15 other spells that are all as effective at keeping you alive as a little more hitpoints.  really big bad monsters just wailing away at you hurt a lot, but the normal swarms that make it by the hilariously bad tanks aint nothing to worry about.

Survivability is poor because hits that every other class would easily shrug off would kill a magic staked DPS Mage.

No DPS Mage is going to have access to 10 or 15 cc spells and still have enough skill points to be good at DPSing (unless your Mage has more skill points than everyone else's).A good DPS Mage is going to have access to maybe 2-4 spells to aid them if enemies get too close and all of them will probably be useless against ranged attacks and extremely limited against elite opponents.I'm not referring to forgettable encounters where you're facing a handful of darkspawn (which should be a cake walk for any class/build) I'm referring to the more intense battles where you're facing swarm after swarm of mixed opponents (enemy foot soldiers,multiple archers or magi,with a few elite sprinkled in for good measure)..you know,the battles that are actually challenging.

If your party is hit with a fire ball spell from an enemy Mage everyone's going down but your low dex/cons DPS Mage is the only one who won't be getting back up.If your low dex/cons DPS Mage is shrugging off powerful blows and has enough Mana (even with moderate use of lyrium) to DPS the field at regular intervals,do away with ranged opponents,and keep all enemies at bay using spell casting alone then you're either playing with the differculty turned down too low or your strategy is impeccable (the former can be fixed in the options menu and the latter is the whole point of the game to begin with).

I'm sorry but it strikes me as quite odd that so many people want to nerf the Mage class in a single player game (where the player controls how powerful each class gets to begin with) just because they're good at DPSing while staying out of harms way.Maybe the Rogue class should also be nerfed because they're arguably just as good at DPSing and a lot better at shrugging off blows and avoiding them...why not nerf Tanks while we're at it since they're better at taking damage than any other build?..It seems like a few people are butt hurt that offensive DPS Mages are out DPSing their ace warrior builds (which is most likely their preferred class) so they decided to moan about it. 




 

[Georg Zoeller]

Odd Hermit wrote...

slikster wrote...

1. This isn't DnD or WOW.
2. This isn't multiplayer.
3. Mages are supposed to be teh powerful.
4. This is Dragon Age. Deal with it.

These aren't excuses for a bad combat system.

True, but judging from critical reception, the combat system we made is quite good. At least for those who didn't want it to be a different game (class balanced vs. party balanced; class dps equality vs. utility equality, etc.)

Not perfect, mind you, but that would be boring, leave us with nothing to improve upon.

Modifié par Georg Zoeller, 18 novembre 2009 - 09:20 .

[surrealitycheck]

True, but judging from critical reception, the combat system we
made is quite good. At least for those who didn't want it to be a
different game (class balanced vs. party balanced; class dps equality
vs. utility equality, etc.)

Not perfect, mind you, but that would be boring, leave us with nothing to improve upon.

It depends what you mean by the combat system old bean!

The actual method used to execute commands and beat people up is such a huge improvement over games like nwn2 that I would certainly say it was good. However, I think people are more complaining about things like autoattack being the zenith of melee abilities, with the activated abilities being actively harmful to one's dps

When compared to the rich tapestry of mage options and gameplay styles, rogues and warriors feel somewhat left out in the cold, interest-wise!

[Kahryl]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Odd Hermit wrote...

slikster wrote...

1. This isn't DnD or WOW.
2. This isn't multiplayer.
3. Mages are supposed to be teh powerful.
4. This is Dragon Age. Deal with it.

These aren't excuses for a bad combat system.

True, but judging from critical reception, the combat system we made is quite good. At least for those who didn't want it to be a different game (class balanced vs. party balanced; class dps equality vs. utility equality, etc.)

You do realize mages win all 4 of those categories?

Ahhh but Gamespot gave you a good review.  Well, I guess that settles the matter

[RedShft]

surrealitycheck wrote...

True, but judging from critical reception, the combat system we
made is quite good. At least for those who didn't want it to be a
different game (class balanced vs. party balanced; class dps equality
vs. utility equality, etc.)

Not perfect, mind you, but that would be boring, leave us with nothing to improve upon.

It depends what you mean by the combat system old bean!

The actual method used to execute commands and beat people up is such a huge improvement over games like nwn2 that I would certainly say it was good. However, I think people are more complaining about things like autoattack being the zenith of melee abilities, with the activated abilities being actively harmful to one's dps

When compared to the rich tapestry of mage options and gameplay styles, rogues and warriors feel somewhat left out in the cold, interest-wise!

First of all, it's pretty clear what a combat system is.

Secondly, I have far more interest in playing a rogue or warrior that a mage in this game. The gameplay style of mages doesn't appeal to me, and I am happy with what bioware given us for rogues and warriors.

[Odd Hermit]

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...


I'm sorry but it strikes me as quite odd that so many people want to nerf the Mage class in a single player game (where the player controls how powerful each class gets to begin with) just because they're good at DPSing while staying out of harms way.Maybe the Rogue class should also be nerfed because they're arguably just as good at DPSing and a lot better at shrugging off blows and avoiding them...why not nerf Tanks while we're at it since they're better at taking damage than any other build?..It seems like a few people are butt hurt that offensive DPS Mages are out DPSing their ace warrior builds (which is most likely their preferred class) so they decided to moan about it. 

I've heard the arcane warrior and dex stacked rogue is actually better for taking damage than a warrior tank build.
Haven't tested personally but I do feel like warriors are behind rogues, and rogues are behind mages. And I mean in overall usefulness to a party, not just solo viability.

My preferred class is mage, but this game is party based so I want the warriors in my parties to be just as useful as my mages.

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Odd Hermit wrote...

slikster wrote...

1. This isn't DnD or WOW.
2. This isn't multiplayer.
3. Mages are supposed to be teh powerful.
4. This is Dragon Age. Deal with it.

These aren't excuses for a bad combat system.

True,
but judging from critical reception, the combat system we made is quite
good. At least for those who didn't want it to be a different
game (class balanced vs. party balanced; class dps equality vs. utility
equality, etc.)

Not perfect, mind you, but that would be boring, leave us with nothing to improve upon.

I won't say it's bad, but certain things about it are, as I brought up in the original post, the reliance vs. gain from stats isn't balanced very well. Rogues/Warriors needing willpower for stamina regen and magic for healing in particular I feel is counter intuitive and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Mages don't need any of the warrior stats to be effective.

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:34 .

[surrealitycheck]

Tell me mr RedShft, how much do you know about how rogues and warriors optimise their damage in this game?



I am more interested in warriors too... or at least I was, until I realised that actually using my abilities was suboptimal. Which is frustrating. Conceptually, I love the idea; in practice, playing a warrior or rogue in this is not fun at all, ESPECIALLY when compared to how many possible combat options mages have.

[Schyzm]

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

RENEGADEXVIII wrote...

Right...and my soda is lukewarm regardless of the fact that it's been sitting in the freezer for over 2 hours.

If you have the type of Mage build that the OP is referring to (all points stacked into magic while ignoring everything else.Which means your Mage can't avoid being hit due to low dex nor can s/he take any damage due to low cons) survivability skills are indeed very poor.     

I don't know why you think survivability is poor.  you have enormous amounts of cc and heals.  hell even if I get mobbed it takes little more than a glyph of repulsion to just laugh in their faces most times.  and even if you didn't want to get that spell there's 10 or 15 other spells that are all as effective at keeping you alive as a little more hitpoints.  really big bad monsters just wailing away at you hurt a lot, but the normal swarms that make it by the hilariously bad tanks aint nothing to worry about.

Survivability is poor because hits that every other class would easily shrug off would kill a magic staked DPS Mage.

No DPS Mage is going to have access to 10 or 15 cc spells and still have enough skill points to be good at DPSing (unless your Mage has more skill points than everyone else's).A good DPS Mage is going to have access to maybe 2-4 spells to aid them if enemies get too close and all of them will probably be useless against ranged attacks and extremely limited against elite opponents.I'm not referring to forgettable encounters where you're facing a handful of darkspawn (which should be a cake walk for any class/build) I'm referring to the more intense battles where you're facing swarm after swarm of mixed opponents (enemy foot soldiers,multiple archers or magi,with a few elite sprinkled in for good measure)..you know,the battles that are actually challenging.

If your party is hit with a fire ball spell from an enemy Mage everyone's going down but your low dex/cons DPS Mage is the only one who won't be getting back up.If your low dex/cons DPS Mage is shrugging off powerful blows and has enough Mana (even with moderate use of lyrium) to DPS the field at regular intervals,do away with ranged opponents,and keep all enemies at bay using spell casting alone then you're either playing with the differculty turned down too low or your strategy is impeccable (the former can be fixed in the options menu and the latter is the whole point of the game to begin with).

I'm sorry but it strikes me as quite odd that so many people want to nerf the Mage class in a single player game (where the player controls how powerful each class gets to begin with) just because they're good at DPSing while staying out of harms way.Maybe the Rogue class should also be nerfed because they're arguably just as good at DPSing and a lot better at shrugging off blows and avoiding them...why not nerf Tanks while we're at it since they're better at taking damage than any other build?..It seems like a few people are butt hurt that offensive DPS Mages are out DPSing their ace warrior builds (which is most likely their preferred class) so they decided to moan about it. 




 

I dont think they need all 10 or 15, just a few gets the job done.  and damage avoided can be just as valuable as taking damage slightly better.  as for enemy mages, they're the first targets every party takes out, and the easiest way to take themout is with a party of mages.

I find some of the harder fights to be the ambushes where the game denies you positioning by just plopping you in the middle of wherever with evryone all around you and usually some stupid mage orange or something up on a hill that you can't even walk to easily.  which of course, makes me thank god for my mages.

at any rate your claim of poor survivability is a joke, survivability is about more than having slightly heavier armor mate.  you should try it sometime.

[Haexpane]

AWJ9999 wrote...

Yeah, letting all three classes just mindlessly pump one stat every time they level, rather than just one class, doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

So it's OK that mages can just pump magic but Rogues and Warriors need 2-4 stats?

[Schyzm]

surrealitycheck wrote...

Tell me mr RedShft, how much do you know about how rogues and warriors optimise their damage in this game?

I am more interested in warriors too... or at least I was, until I realised that actually using my abilities was suboptimal. Which is frustrating. Conceptually, I love the idea; in practice, playing a warrior or rogue in this is not fun at all, ESPECIALLY when compared to how many possible combat options mages have.

that is a pretty funny kick in the nuts.  give them mundane abliities but make the abilities so bad that you actually end up auto attacking.

[Haexpane]

iampotato wrote...

As soon as someone has a negative opinion about the game, the fan boys strike!

Pathetic...

I love the game aswell, but yeah, it's not perfect. Alot could be improved.

Only WoW nubs like patches

KIDDING

[F-C]

Kahryl wrote...

You do realize mages win all 4 of those categories?

Ahhh but Gamespot gave you a good review.  Well, I guess that settles the matter

i hear that assuming you are better than the developers and insulting them gets them to do what you want.

true/false ?

[Kelston]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

True, but judging from critical
reception, the combat system we made is quite good. At least for those
who didn't want it to be a different game (class balanced vs. party
balanced; class dps equality vs. utility equality, etc.)

Not perfect, mind you, but that would be boring, leave us with nothing to improve upon.

RedShft wrote...

First of all, it's pretty clear what a combat system is.

So what is a combat system because ActionTrip defines a combat system as the overarching system in which combat is played, rather than the individual abilities utilized within that system: http://www.actiontri...nrpggames.phtml

They speak of "combat systems" not as in magic vs melee. They speak of a combat system as turn based vs real time.

So yes, the combat system in DA:O is great. It's real time meets strategy meets turn based. It makes the most sense. Of course this would result in a good review of the combat system.

The class specific combat abilities which operate within the combat system, however, leave something to be desired.

EDIT:

And just for a few more in case you want to say ActionTrip is just making up a random definition for combat system:

CVG speaking about Age of Conan's real time combat system, not it's magic spells or melee attacks in the system but the overarching real time system: http://www.computera...e.php?id=170042

or how about BioWare itself referring to the combat system as the overarching combat system not the class specifics? http://downloads.gam...emos/d28607.htm

Modifié par Kelston, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:43 .

[WillieStyle]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Odd Hermit wrote...

slikster wrote...

1. This isn't DnD or WOW.
2. This isn't multiplayer.
3. Mages are supposed to be teh powerful.
4. This is Dragon Age. Deal with it.

These aren't excuses for a bad combat system.

True, but judging from critical reception, the combat system we made is quite good. At least for those who didn't want it to be a different game (class balanced vs. party balanced; class dps equality vs. utility equality, etc.)

Not perfect, mind you, but that would be boring, leave us with nothing to improve upon.

Out of curiosity:
What do you mean by party balance? I assume you mean either:
-All class combinations are roughly equaly viable
or
-A diverse party (Warrior,Rogue,Mage + X) is more effective than a party that stacks only one class.

Do you thnk you've accomplished party balance in this game?
Do you think that class utility in this game is equal (or close to it)?

[Bluesmith]

I'm not going to involve myself in this thread all that much - let's face it, modding will make everything better - but I did want to interject one question of mine. Why is it that people see the low survivability of mages as being an effective counterbalance to their damage and CC abilities? If you can freeze it, you can solo it, even with 0 points invested into DEX or CON. And even that situation shouldn't EVER arise: this is a PvE only game, which means your mage should NEVER be taking damage (rogues will, if only because certain enemies have side/back attacks and personal-range AOE spam) outside of the odd fireball.

Mages can pump MAG and WIL all day.
Rogues pump DEX and CUN (STR to 20).
Warriors must pump STR, DEX, CON.

This actually sounds fine, until you realize that Rogues and Warriors have to ALSO pump WIL if they ever want to use more than two abilities and a sustainable per battle, and that, further still, Warriors must pump MAG if they ever want to be healed worth beans. Even rogues could use CON and MAG a bit thanks to melee-range AOE spam this game throws at you (Ogres, Dragons, certain 2Her bosses, etc.).

Honestly, removing some of the massive CC utility of mages, adding a stamina pot, and shifting stamina gains to DEX would be amazing. I guess I'll open up that toolset o' mine.

Modifié par Bluesmith, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:46 .

[Vaylor66]

My largest gripe is that sustainable abilities take too much stamina and mana. If you throw on a couple of those, forget about even using abilities or spells. This is fine for a mage whose sustainables are really for the group, but when most melee are designed to run 2-3 at once, it won't work. Buff timers also need to be reviewed. They should be longer duration(except things like force field). The only thing really broken in terms of combat is that cc is a little strong at times, monsters need some beefed up mental resists. Although all buff and sustainable abilities and spells need a big overhaul.