148 réponses à ce sujet

[tybert7]

This game is turning from a disapointment to actual contempt and hatred.


I play casters, that is all.  Every game I go for the caster archetype,

In mass effect I start out as adept, flinging enemies into the air and away from me is incredibly satisfying, warp on barriers and armor has such a nice feel as I blast through defenses.  I feel like I wield great power as that class.



In dragon age origins I was a mage, they were op in that game, but still enjoyable.  The shield/AoE was too over the top, and cone of cold was a bit too powerful, but it was also satisfying being able to wield so much power against my enemies.  When I hit them, it hurt them.




In knights of the old republic I was a consular, the feel of holding up your hand and flinging scores of enemies to the ground was such a treat, or showering the entire area with flesh searing lightning.  So much power.  Satisfying.


In baldur's gate 2 I was a mage/sorc, and my GOD they were powerful in that game.  Summoners, conjurers of cosmic power from the heavens (calling down effing comets to lay waste to the battlefields or dragons breath to literally burn lesser enemies to ash on the spot.).  Or how about completely stopping TIME for the entire world except the mage and certain high level bosses?  Incalculable power, not invulnerable, plenty of tactics were needed even with all that power, but the way to keep the mage in line in that game was not to cut his @$#% off and neuter him to hit for nothing and take away all his power...



Dragon Age 2 is the first game where I feel like a completely and utterly useless.  I can't hit for sh*t.  Every god damn spell I cast on non trash enemies is heavily resisted and barely tickles the enemy.  many of my force abilities don't even effect the enemies.  Fist of the maker better be cast on humanoids or that sh*t just is not going to knock down anyone.  Oh and btw, none of the spells hit for jack sh*t on their own unless my warrior softens the enemies up, usually only ONE enemy... so my AoE ability now hits ONE enemy for more damage while the rest get a tickle...


WTF is this ?!?

Maybe I am just playing it wrong, I am mostly in the primal tree / force mage tree, and now blood mage tree.  Usually as a caster I feel weak at the start, but as I level the power begins to flow through me and out towards mine enemies.  In Dragon Age 2, there is no power in me, what little I have is flicked at my feet by my companions abilities, which come too infrequently to make enough of a difference.

I genuinely HATE my caster in this game.  H A T E.  So maybe I am just terrible and need to learn to play, or maybe something deeper is wrong with the casters in this game or maybe the whole system.

Modifié par tybert7, 27 mars 2011 - 07:58 .

[cloudblade70]

"So maybe I am just terrible and need to learn to play."

This.

[tybert7]

cloudblade70 wrote...

"So maybe I am just terrible and need to learn to play."

This.

You must have enjoyed your caster main then?  

[Metalheadisme]

I share the sentiment..... they swung the mage pendulum too far in the other direction from DA:O.

Unless you have a 2H warrior out there staggering enemies left and right, mages do diddly squat for damage.

One of the things I loved about my DA:O mage is that I got to choose what type of mage I wanted to be.... healer/buffer, crowd controller, debilitator, damage dealer, or some combo of those types.

Here, you're really forced to be more of a support character unless you can consistently exploit the stagger CCC's. The insane resists alone on nightmare are a headache. Throw in friendly fire and it makes a bad situation worse.

I will say this though.... two of my favorite spells are gravitic ring and horror. They are definitely good CC. My least favorite spell is definitely fireball..... what the heck were they thinking with that one?

[tybert7]

Metalheadisme wrote...

I share the sentiment..... they swung the mage pendulum too far in the other direction from DA:O.

Unless you have a 2H warrior out there staggering enemies left and right, mages do diddly squat for damage.

One of the things I loved about my DA:O mage is that I got to choose what type of mage I wanted to be.... healer/buffer, crowd controller, debilitator, damage dealer, or some combo of those types.

Here, you're really forced to be more of a support character unless you can consistently exploit the stagger CCC's. The insane resists alone on nightmare are a headache. Throw in friendly fire and it makes a bad situation worse.

I will say this though.... two of my favorite spells are gravitic ring and horror. They are definitely good CC. My least favorite spell is definitely fireball..... what the heck were they thinking with that one?

I think fireball was meant as a joke.  In origins, it was a clutch ability that was reliable AoE damage AND a reliable knockback.  It's just not the same in this game, mages don't feel powerful at all and I HATE that.  I don't play mages to be support, I play them to destroy things, and almost every game allows them to do that, except dragon age 2.  

I wonder how many people play mages vs rogues and warriors?  Maybe that is where there seems to be less concern with this.  Most people in mass effect play a soldier, the common gun toting soldier, not an engineer or adept, the grunt.  Maybe it is the same in dragon age 2, and there is a feeling of, "not my problem"

Great for you all.  I have basically stopped playing the game in disgust.

[Jaekahn]

Look man, you have to adapt to the fact that Mages don't have the sheer force and power as they did in DA:O. Bioware decided to give each class a specific role; Rogue = Single target damage / Warrior = Massive AoE damage / Mage = All around / support.

A Mage's role isn't to destroy 100 people via a simple tempest anymore. Now you have to coordinated with your other classes, set up brittle for your warrior or take advantage of staggering from your warrior. You have the most effective CC in the game with glyph of paralysis x2, Winter's Grasp, Petrify, Prism, etc. If you go Spirit Healer + Blood Mage, then you get a huge constitution buff so you practically have unlimited mana.

The drawback is that you have to depend on your team. The advantage is that you have so many different tools that if your team were to die, given the proper build, you can simply kite a group, keep yourself up via heal and switch between blood aura and out of it to maintain mana.

Mages aren't gimped, they simply require a little adjustment from the first game. They are, in fact, really fun to play later on.

[Jaekahn]

Oh and... http://social.biowar...06/polls/17417/

[tybert7]

Jaekahn wrote...

Look man, you have to adapt to the fact that Mages don't have the sheer force and power as they did in DA:O. Bioware decided to give each class a specific role; Rogue = Single target damage / Warrior = Massive AoE damage / Mage = All around / support.

A Mage's role isn't to destroy 100 people via a simple tempest anymore. Now you have to coordinated with your other classes, set up brittle for your warrior or take advantage of staggering from your warrior. You have the most effective CC in the game with glyph of paralysis x2, Winter's Grasp, Petrify, Prism, etc. If you go Spirit Healer + Blood Mage, then you get a huge constitution buff so you practically have unlimited mana.

The drawback is that you have to depend on your team. The advantage is that you have so many different tools that if your team were to die, given the proper build, you can simply kite a group, keep yourself up via heal and switch between blood aura and out of it to maintain mana.

Mages aren't gimped, they simply require a little adjustment from the first game. They are, in fact, really fun to play later on.

I will abandon the force tree and go into spirit healing instead, just to try it.   Aside from that, it's not the fact that mages are not gods like origins that bothers me, it's that they essentially gimped their damage so much that they seem better suited to non destruction roles.  That is NOT the role I prefer playing on my mages.  I did not build my origins mage as a dedicated healer, my adept in mass effect invested HEAVILY in warp so I could lay waste to enemy defenses, less so in pull for cc.  I wanted to do damage and unleash hell.  And in Dragon Age 2, the casters just don't have the same punch they do in ANY other bioware game or typical genre game.  I find that pretty pathetic, but whatever, I guess many do not.

If that poll is accurate, it makes you wonder why mages got so much less love in the damage department.  

[Jaekahn]

They can still unleash hell and still be very devasting but they simply are not overpowered, as you put it, like they were in DA:O. You combine Tempest, Firestorm and Winter's Grasp and you basically will wipe out any wave of normal mobs. Petrify has a ridiculous duration and works on almost any elite / boss which increases the basic attack damage of your warrior / rogue companion.

DA:O was designed to be AoE heavy and seeing large numbers. They wanted to add more strategy into this and wanted to give each class their own role in order to increase the replay value.

And you have to stop thinking simply in the damage department. Mages lack the single damage burst like rogues have and doesn't have the same powerful AoE like warriors, but they do well in both department which essentially gives them an advantage. If you spec into Rock Armor, full Primal, Full Elemental you're practically a Arcane Warrior all over again since Rock Armor adds immense survivability.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

You just need to learn how STAGGER combos work. Mages don't have that raw potential they once had, but you can still explode entire waves of enemies with some micromanagement. Hemmorhage and Chain Lightning are key spells there.
But yeah, playing a mage does't feel that epic anymore. It's not even that tactical, most of the time you just stare at your spells bar and mash buttons.

[Fa1nT]

I am having an easier time on Nightmare with my 2h warrior than I did on hard with my Elemental + Force + Spirit healer mage.

Winters Grasp -> good spell, okay damage, cooldown is too long...

Cone of Cold -> still amazing, but on hard/nightmare, almost everything starts to resist brittle

Fireball -> lol. with upgrade? loooool. Joke spell, does like 120 damage while staff attacks are hitting 80-100...

Firestorm -> "Okay" damage... It hits like 10 times for 200 damage, which is okay for trash mobs, but for elites/bosses its maybe 1/50 of their HP. A single Mighty blow + Scythe + whirlwind does far more than this spell in far less time.. and it's also aoe.

First of The Maker -> 100 damage... only lifts 1/10 of the enemies in the game.

Gravitic Ring -> The only OP spell in the game. Turns a boss useless for 20-30 seconds.

[Jaekahn]

As I said, the mage class is more than just burst damage now. They have other roles in the group so of course their damage isn't going to keep up with a warrior's aoe or a rogue's single target damage. Can the other classes heal? Well aside from Reaver, no. Can they CC someone for 10 secs? Maybe in a stun but that's still ineffective compared to petrify.

[godlike13]

Mages take a bit to get fun, but once they're there, they are a blast!

Loved playing my mage. When he wasn't blowing baddies to bits, he was locking them down to get ganged raped by more spells and  party members.

Modifié par godlike13, 27 mars 2011 - 09:03 .

[Jaekahn]

My mage was my first playthrough that I completed. My playstyle usually relates to archers in almost any game but I was rather fond of my mage here. Having two revives and two group heals made things go smoother.

[tybert7]

Jaekahn wrote...

As I said, the mage class is more than just burst damage now. They have other roles in the group so of course their damage isn't going to keep up with a warrior's aoe or a rogue's single target damage. Can the other classes heal? Well aside from Reaver, no. Can they CC someone for 10 secs? Maybe in a stun but that's still ineffective compared to petrify.

The problem is those other roles are roles I enjoy less.  Ergot, I am enjoying my mage much less than every other game where I have played a caster, and I find him incredibly unsatisfying.  You seem to get off on cc and healing, and setting up combo chains.  I don't.  I cannot enjoy the mage as you can, my standards are different, my tastes are different.  And they were puked on by the devs.  Fine, just don't expect the same benefit of the doubt when I consider purchasing the sequel.  

[Jaekahn]

I just don't think you're giving the class much benefit of the doubt? How far have you gotten? What level? What spec? Not just specialization, but how did you invest your talent points?

[Aradace]

cloudblade70 wrote...

"So maybe I am just terrible and need to learn to play."

This.

This, combined with, "Try not playing on Nightmare mode"  Seriously, there's no trophy/achievement for it so other than satisfying the ego, there's no reason to do it.  If you're playing on normal setting and still "not doing damage" then you reallllly need to learn to play a Mage.  I had 0 problem with doing damage and/or spells being resisted.  So either stop playing on nightmare mode to alliviate your problem, or get better at playing a mage, those are the only two options you have at this point.

[Jaekahn]

Aradace wrote...

cloudblade70 wrote...

"So maybe I am just terrible and need to learn to play."

This.

This, combined with, "Try not playing on Nightmare mode"  Seriously, there's no trophy/achievement for it so other than satisfying the ego, there's no reason to do it.  If you're playing on normal setting and still "not doing damage" then you reallllly need to learn to play a Mage.  I had 0 problem with doing damage and/or spells being resisted.  So either stop playing on nightmare mode to alliviate your problem, or get better at playing a mage, those are the only two options you have at this point.

I think there's some sense of accomplishment with successfully beating the game on Nightmare.. Though I will say Nightmare is far harder than Insanity on ME2. Holy hell.. Fighting High Dragon on Hard was horrible! Can't imagine it on Nightmare.

[GabranthSG]

What difficulty are you playing on? Maybe it's nightmare because I'm playing mage for my second playthrough now on hard and she has no problems destroying things left and right. And I didn't even build her as a full on nuker. She's a spirit healer/bloodmage and her Winter's Grasp hits for 700 - 1000+ damage a shot. Not to mention with Heroic Aura and Haste, my party just mows through mobs. I'm actually having an easier time with my mage than with my warrior in my first playthrough, though I think it's also because I'm playing better with experience.

[SuicidalBaby]

hard is nothing like nightmare.

You want a spec for damage and control on nightmare?  Any staggered enemy is obliterated in seconds. 

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 27 mars 2011 - 09:31 .

[Amioran]

For those thinking the mage is "gimped", and having a PC, try Better Mages.

I don't think they are "gimped", but some spells could be done better and this forces you to have to go certain routes (especially on nightmare) to be powerful. That mod resolves many of the more "broken lines", so it is more difficult that you will do "wrong" choices.

It also increases damage of spells by 50% overall, while diminishing CCC damage, so the mage is less reliant on CCC to be very powerful.

Anyway, if you have a PC at last now you have an option if you feel mages are weak. So maybe, this way, complaints will stop.

As for the specs to take to have the stronger mage possible on DPS definetly Force Mage/Blood Mage. More, if you play on anything lower than nightmare (or if you have a mod that removes FF on it) then be sure to take Walking Bomb (that's the most powerful spell even more/on par with Paralyzing Hemorrhage on staggered enemies). You can use it also on nightmare but it requires more effort and a bit of practice, and many people usually don't have the patience necessary.

Modifié par Amioran, 27 mars 2011 - 09:38 .

[SuicidalBaby]

I really dont see the problem with mages. Majority of their spells sacrifice some damage for outragious control over the target. 2 mages with haste = 2/3rds up time.

Staples of any build should include:
Horror
Stone Armor
Chain Lightning (upgraded)
Hex of Torment
Force Mage: Unshakable is a basic requirement - Gravatic Ring is by far the best control spell in the game.  Hell, tonight I used Pull of the Abyss on my entire party to get them out of the Varatel's aoe nature attack.

Enemy: Status = Dissoreinted > Stonefist
Enemy: Status = Staggered > Chain Lightning, Crushing Prison

If an even an elite enemy is staggered and you have 2 mages at equal range with chain lightning triggering at the exact same time. It's gonna die. My record is 5 seconds on an Elite Coterie Assassin.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 27 mars 2011 - 09:45 .

[Eudaemonium]

Jaekahn wrote...

I think there's some sense of accomplishment with successfully beating the game on Nightmare.. Though I will say Nightmare is far harder than Insanity on ME2. Holy hell.. Fighting High Dragon on Hard was horrible! Can't imagine it on Nightmare.

I did my initial run on Nightmare as a Force/Spirit Healer Mage, mainly for the sense of accomplishment. The hardest fight by far was the Ancient Rock Wraith, and I generally found the game getting easier and easier as time went on and levels mounted up. The High Dragon was also hard, but I managed to beat it first time.

That said, you are right about mage damage being somewhat gimped in DA2. Personally, I really liked the CCC system, setting up Brittle for a MIghty Blow or an Archer's Lance (and moving people out of the way of them, the amount of times Fenris insta-killed Aveline was not fun), or exploiting Stagger with a Chain Lightning. 2H have such range they can stagger entire groups for you to exploit. If you go Blood Mage, then you get Hemmorage, which is apparently ridiculous. Of course, if you do not enjoy playing like that, then I completely understand why you'd be having a problem. That isn't a fault on your part - you just don't enjoy how mages play in DA2, and that is completely valid.

[Gnoster]

I agree with some of the points being made in this thread, mages can be really amazing damage dealers as well as great for battlefield control and setting other combos.
As opposed to some here who look toward their player character dealing the most damage through the exploitation of Staggered and Disoriented targets (and yes, this is the way to go if you want to be the high damage dealer). On my current 2nd playthrough where I play a mage (hardmode difficulty), I deal medium - high damage, but my main concentration is looking to make enemies brittle and have my companions take advantage of that. This works extremely well - e.g. using Desiccate (the improved version of Petrify) not only removes an elite/boss from the battle but any normal enemies (I usually use it on the very dangerous assassins) is instantly killed by exploiting the 100% chance of Brittle.

To fully exploit this, no matter which way you go with your mage, you need to think carefully about how you set up your tactics. On hardmode and nightmare there is no preset tactics which will work with cross class combos, you need to set these up yourself. On normal mode you can ignore exploiting cross class combos in my opinion, because all classes including mages kill every enemy quite easily once you've leveled a bit.

This chance in focus from Bioware from where one class can solo everything to a need to focus on how the party works together have resulted in some classes like the mage not feeling like the "glass-canon" anymore. Ofcourse whether one likes this or not is a matter of personal style and preference. I really enjoy it, but if you don't and prefer a ranged high damage dealer, then I would suggest to try out an archer rogue. I'm playing a game with a friend as this, and the damage they can deal if used correctly is insane.

[Roxlimn]

No need for particular Mage specs. Just change difficulty setting to Normal. That ought to get you the Mage you're looking for.