148 réponses à ce sujet

[Tigerman123]

I've to got to agree with the OP, I found my nightmare run as a TH Warrior much less challenging than beating the game on hard as a Mage first time around, in fact I would even call it easy

[Gloxgasm]

You do not need a mage damage boosting mod. That is just silly.

[Malevolence65]

Gloxgasm wrote...

You do not need a mage damage boosting mod. That is just silly.

I wish I could be as cool, intelligent, and skillful as you.

[Roxlimn]

He's right, though. If you just want your spells to do "more damage," you can just turn down the difficulty setting. If you need a damage mod to survive on Casual, I have to say that you really need to learn how to play better.

[Gloxgasm]

Is it really that hard to do a basic Stagger > Chain Lighting or a Disorient > Spirit Bolt type of thing? I just don't get it. On hard you can drop a ton of aoe right on top of yourself and do some massive damage. You can taunt > walking bomb whole groups of enemies in seconds.

How are you playing your mage that you feel so underpowered?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

He's right, though. If you just want your spells to do "more damage," you can just turn down the difficulty setting. If you need a damage mod to survive on Casual, I have to say that you really need to learn how to play better.

The game is poorly balanced for mages on NM. If he wants to correct that with a mod what's it to you? It is not a question of learning to play, it is a question of poor balance by the developers.

[Zan Mura]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

He's right, though. If you just want your spells to do "more damage," you can just turn down the difficulty setting. If you need a damage mod to survive on Casual, I have to say that you really need to learn how to play better.

The game is poorly balanced for mages on NM. If he wants to correct that with a mod what's it to you? It is not a question of learning to play, it is a question of poor balance by the developers.

And opinion. And the fact that to a lot of us, friendly fire is essential for a good game feel. Which brings us back to the design, considering casual doesn't allow for friendly fire. Anyway Roxlimn's logic fails because even if you didn't care about FF or the general difficulty, toning down to casual will not fix the relative difference in power. Sure, your mage might finally be a decent nuker, but on the other hand, that 2h becomes a frigging God capable of soloing anything in mere instants. So the end result is the same: the mage will feel gimped compared to the others.

Saying this one last time: Mages are not weak or useless in DA2, they are very important. But their role TYPE is not like what many of us would want. Their role is *inconsistent* with the lore, with the enemy mages, with DAO. That some of us want to change that, is not a question of skill. I've passed the game on normal and twice on nightmare with a mage, mage and rogue, respectively, and two nightmare mid-games that are still unfinished, with a warrior and another mage. So if you want to stroke your proverbial epeen, please continue doing so. If you wish to actually discuss the issue here, then understand that it's simply a matter of opinion that a lot of us share, that the player-controlled mages do not possess the personal power we feel they should. Not a matter of skill.

If all mages in Thedas were as weak in personal power as the player's mages in DA2. Then there would be no Circle, or Templars keeping these "powerful beings" in check, because 2h warriors and rogues would easily dominate most of them.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 27 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[Gloxgasm]

Sorry but that post screams L2P. Mages do awesome damage in party enviroments with CCC. On top of that, mages have AOE, buffs, heals, and CC. What you all seem to be crying for is easymode not balance.

On top of that, most of you throw in the "Warrior +2 mage backup does so much damage, why can't my lone mage do that" whine. Yet again, learn to use CCC at the least. It isn't hand. Do you guys need a guide to be able to hit chain lightning when you stagger a mob? Maybe a dev could come over your house and press the button for you?

You want a mage to be able to stagger and chain lightning on his own? Why even have 3 classes in the game then? Might as well make it mage only.

[Jman5]

Tybert7:

I noticed you decided to ignore the Primal Tree on your main mage. If you're looking for big numbers, Primal Tree is the route most people take. Force is an excellent skill tree to get, but it is not a damage dealer by itself.

If you are looking huge numbers you need to set your warrior/s up to stagger. You can quickly oneshot waves if you use your abilities and tactics well. However, the game doesn't just spoonfeed you as easily as DA:O did.

[Zhijn]

Bratinov wrote...

That would be cheating

Heh, how would that be cheating.

You just said in the post above me "blood mages are broken because they cant use most robes".  Well this mod only remove the willpower requirements on mage gear, so voila. A "pure blood mage" that can actually use mage gear and still be effective in combat!.

Its an oversight on BioWares behave tbh (gawd i hope so), but that mod corrects that. =)

[Gloxgasm]

Silliness again. Willpower makes it balanced so you can't pump life and magic whilst having full armor. Might as well mod in an "I win" button since that is where most of you whiners seem to want.

[Amioran]

Metalheadisme wrote...

There are interesting takes on the issue here. My opinion is that the fun of builds in the game is choices.

A warrior can choose an AOE staggering/brittle-capitalizing machine 2H or a battlefield controlling, damage soaking SnS. There are smatterings of other abilities to include which bridge the gap between the two. Either way, a warrior has the hp and armor to be survivable with whatever the chosen build may be.

A rogue can go bow for great dps and AoE or daggers for even better single target dps. Throw in some great mechanics like stealth and some mildly effective CC and you can have some interesting builds. They are also useful for traps and chests. Their hp and armor isn't a warrior's, but that's the price of flexibility and they have abilities to clear threat.

Mages are supposed to be the most flexible class to build, but they pay for it with their sheer squishiness. You can be a damager, debuffer, buffer, controller, healer, or some combination of them. I think the main issue is with the "damager" choice because of its reliance on CCC, high cooldowns, and the ramping up of resists.

Personally, I dont think a super buffing of mages is really necessary, but I think a few items would help:

1) The fire line of spells needs some help. Fireball needs more damage. Perhaps adding a fire burn DoT or adding more damage via Disorient CCC would help, bringing me to #2
2) Rogues need to more reliably be able to apply Disorient.
3) Overall, perhaps bring up the base damage of many spells, but bring down the bonus from CCC.
4) Make our magic stat really count on Nightmare for penetrating resists. If I only get my willpower to 32, ignore con, and just pump magic, I should be able to penetrate a lot more enemies with my spells.

As I stated before, there's a mod that does this already, that I gave the link for. If you consider it cheating it's another issue. It does exactly all the things you mention (apart the no will req and disorient thing, but for the will issue you can find a mod that resolves it easily).

I don't want no more to enter in the discussion since it is a waste of time. However if you have a PC you have a response right there, if you feel this way (right or wrong).

Mods are not cheating, they are a way to customize the game on how you feel is better, and on how you consider them more fun to play. Since you think mages are too much reliant on CCCs and some spells are "broken", there's a modification that can help you enjoy the game more.

If then what you say is correct or not doesn't change that for you, and your enjoynment of the game, it is.

Modifié par Amioran, 27 mars 2011 - 09:42 .

[knownastherat]

Personally, I do not see it as subject to modding, but rather as a debate about future or rather trends.

Are those CCC's the way to go? Should cooperation be implemented, promoted and encouraged this way, where sum is greater than it parts?

Sure, anything can be, and should be .., modded to accommodate everyone.

[Zhijn]

Gloxgasm wrote...

Silliness again. Willpower makes it balanced so you can't pump life and magic whilst having full armor. Might as well mod in an "I win" button since that is where most of you whiners seem to want.

I fail to see how its a "i win".

Your just replacing your mana pool whilst being able to wear robes and not feel like a utterly useless blood mage in the process. You will still depend on a warrior and such. Meh forget it.

[Gloxgasm]

It gives something for nothing. There is absolutely no tradeoff.

[Metalheadisme]

Amioran wrote...

Metalheadisme wrote...

There are interesting takes on the issue here. My opinion is that the fun of builds in the game is choices.

A warrior can choose an AOE staggering/brittle-capitalizing machine 2H or a battlefield controlling, damage soaking SnS. There are smatterings of other abilities to include which bridge the gap between the two. Either way, a warrior has the hp and armor to be survivable with whatever the chosen build may be.

A rogue can go bow for great dps and AoE or daggers for even better single target dps. Throw in some great mechanics like stealth and some mildly effective CC and you can have some interesting builds. They are also useful for traps and chests. Their hp and armor isn't a warrior's, but that's the price of flexibility and they have abilities to clear threat.

Mages are supposed to be the most flexible class to build, but they pay for it with their sheer squishiness. You can be a damager, debuffer, buffer, controller, healer, or some combination of them. I think the main issue is with the "damager" choice because of its reliance on CCC, high cooldowns, and the ramping up of resists.

Personally, I dont think a super buffing of mages is really necessary, but I think a few items would help:

1) The fire line of spells needs some help. Fireball needs more damage. Perhaps adding a fire burn DoT or adding more damage via Disorient CCC would help, bringing me to #2
2) Rogues need to more reliably be able to apply Disorient.
3) Overall, perhaps bring up the base damage of many spells, but bring down the bonus from CCC.
4) Make our magic stat really count on Nightmare for penetrating resists. If I only get my willpower to 32, ignore con, and just pump magic, I should be able to penetrate a lot more enemies with my spells.

As I stated before, there's a mod that does this already, that I gave the link for. If you consider it cheating it's another issue. It does exactly all the things you mention (apart the no will req and disorient thing, but for the will issue you can find a mod that resolves it easily).

I don't want no more to enter in the discussion since it is a waste of time. However if you have a PC you have a response right there, if you feel this way (right or wrong).

Mods are not cheating, they are a way to customize the game on how you feel is better, and on how you consider them more fun to play. Since you think mages are too much reliant on CCCs and some spells are "broken", there's a modification that can help you enjoy the game more.

If then what you say is correct or not doesn't change that for you, and your enjoynment of the game, it is.

I know, and I saw that, but I play on PS3, hah.

[godlike13]

Even for Warriors, to get the most out of a specialization like Beserker it requires u to put a decent number of points into Will. So i can see how this Con/Will swap could be a bit unbalances. Though, on the other hand, there isn't really any Rogue specializations that require u to put points in something other than Dex and Cun to get the most out of them...

Modifié par godlike13, 28 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[Sallul]

Gloxgasm wrote...

It gives something for nothing. There is absolutely no tradeoff.

Rage more man. Who cares how people want to play the game? I'm sure you feel awesome that you can spend 10+ minutes per fight executing every single move of your entire team to make sure that nobody dies to FF or that you are hovering over your keyboard just waiting for that STAGGERED icon so you can actually do decent damage. Not everybody enjoys that playstyle, and who are you to judge how other people want to play the game? You don't like the mods? Don't use them. Holy cow I just solved your problem of "dealing" with the whiners. The hardcore community did not elect you as their official to beat back the waves of "noobs' who don't like every aspect of how the game was and just accepts it. Deal with it.

[Gloxgasm]

Actually I play solo =/

Its just silly how we get these threads every day and every day there is someone absolutely convinced that mages are broken, mages are awful, etc etc.Then someone else comes along and posts a vid of a warrior killing stuff with 2 mages behind him to trigger a whole new wave of whining. Rinse and repeat.

[tonnactus]

Gloxgasm wrote...

It gives something for nothing. There is absolutely no tradeoff.

Casting spells and loose health in the process isnt a tradeoff?(its also a risk) Interesting...
Its annoying,because merill could be specced like that,yet the player didnt have such freedom.

Modifié par tonnactus, 28 mars 2011 - 12:37 .

[Gloxgasm]

She can't get as many health to mana items as the player can.
Bloodmagic already has tradeoffs, I am talking about something else.

[wowpwnslol]

Gloxgasm wrote...

Actually I play solo =/

Its just silly how we get these threads every day and every day there is someone absolutely convinced that mages are broken, mages are awful, etc etc.Then someone else comes along and posts a vid of a warrior killing stuff with 2 mages behind him to trigger a whole new wave of whining. Rinse and repeat.

Warriors don't need anyone to help them kill stuff quickly. Assail+Cleave followed by Mighty Blow, Scythe and Whirlwind mows down everything except bosses on its own.

[Gloxgasm]

And then the second wave spawns and they are at 0 stamina and kite for minutes. Congratz, you blew every single cooldown and killed hopefully a full wave.

You know, I heard rogues can 1 shot enemies. Mages should have that ability too!

[tybert7]

Jman5 wrote...

Tybert7:

I noticed you decided to ignore the Primal Tree on your main mage. If you're looking for big numbers, Primal Tree is the route most people take. Force is an excellent skill tree to get, but it is not a damage dealer by itself.

If you are looking huge numbers you need to set your warrior/s up to stagger. You can quickly oneshot waves if you use your abilities and tactics well. However, the game doesn't just spoonfeed you as easily as DA:O did.

I only just recently specced into elemental, I had been primal for most of the game.

[Besetment]

I tend to find that on Nightmare, it works out better if I'm controlling Fenris and applying stagger. Then I just set my Hawke mage tactics really good. The AI nails chain lightning better than I can but I think thats more to do with me being better than the AI at spreading stagger around.

If I let the AI control Fenris, it tends to scrap it out to the death, when its far better to activate Claymore, hit, bolster, new target, hit, bolster, new target, hit, bolster etc. The only time where that doesn't apply is if you can get a really good Whirlwind that creams like 5 dudes at once.

You do either of the above and you are only hitting each dude once, but they all simultaneously explode around you in a fountain of gibs thanks to double chain reactions. Anyway, I did find it slightly disappointing that the AI could do my Mage job better than I could so I spend alot of time directly controlling Fenris or Aveline instead. It sometimes feels like playing a gimped 2H warrior with a really mega awesome npc ally.

Modifié par Besetment, 28 mars 2011 - 01:52 .